Arguing with the internets

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Arguing with the internets; I am
Topic Started: Jul 20 2010, 06:02 PM (13,813 Views)
VinylPusher	Jul 20 2010, 06:02 PM Post #1
Posts: 1,275 Group: Lapsed Member #573 Joined: July 27, 2005 The best videogame ever is: Fallout 3 A good name for a band would be: Elephant Penis	I get an email every time there's a new bit of hardware reviewed on benchmarkreviews.com. Recently, there was a review of a chair. A special chair designed by a special company. I read it. 8 pages of review which, to me, read more like an advert than a review. I would appreciate if the more learned amongst you (Stu especially) might cast a professional eye over the same: http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=562&Itemid=58 I am having the argument with the reviewer, Olin Coles, Executive Editor of benchmarkreviews.com. I commented on the article, quite bluntly stating that I thought it read like an advert, not an objective review (I was actually more facetious than that, but that's the summation of it). He's removed mine and his comments and he's emailed me instead. I've been known to be wrong before, but I would genuinely appreciate someone else's view. It's not as if I can win the argument, as an argument about opinion is fated to failure by default. Still, I want to know if I'm going barmy, at least.



xbendystevex	Jul 20 2010, 06:12 PM Post #2
not that bendy really. Posts: 679 Group: Members Member #2,583 Joined: April 10, 2008 Football bias: Ipswich Town	Bloody hell, that's just a cut and paste press release surely? That's certainly how it read to me, especially the first page. I once pointed out to Wired (via Twitter) that I wasn't impressed by their 8 page advert for the Tories that they tried to claim was an article a couple of months before the election, and that I would not be subscribing. The got really snippy in reply so I never bought the mag again.



RevStu	Jul 20 2010, 06:47 PM Post #3
Laird/Beast Of Glencairn Posts: 20,596 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: May 6, 2003 Football bias: Aberdeen, Scotland, Man Utd The best videogame ever is: Super Mario Galaxy A good name for a band would be: The Sting/Paxman Exchange Political affiliation George Square Thatcher Death Party	No way in a million years was that written by anyone other than Herman Miller PR. And most likely someone from Herman Miller PR who has English as a second language.



CraigGrannell	Jul 20 2010, 07:06 PM Post #4
Your thumping bass surrounds you Posts: 6,801 Group: Members Member #165 Joined: February 15, 2004	^^ What he said.



Xeethra	Jul 20 2010, 07:09 PM Post #5
Flighty Posts: 480 Group: Lifetime Subscribers Member #4,180 Joined: January 12, 2009 The best videogame ever is: Chaos	Quote: In this article Benchmark Reviews takes you on a tour of the Herman Miller Embody ergonomic office chair, and demonstrates how much better sitting all day can feel. I read most of the damnable thing (and a few other reviews to see what the site's norm was like) and agree with you, Mr. P. Though most of BmR's reviews seem to be very in-depth they do fall the other side of brochures. What concerned me most was the presentation of HM's claims about the health benefits of the chair without even a straw-man assault on them. The last two pages or so come close to an actual review but the first six are presented way too much like promo material. Most of them could have been condensed into a paragraph beginning "There's a lot you can do to customise your chair...".



Ian Osborne	Jul 20 2010, 07:22 PM Post #6
Posts: 4,235 Group: Lapsed Member #44 Joined: May 9, 2003 Football bias: Aston Villa The best videogame ever is: Time Pilot A good name for a band would be: Wilted Continent	I copied a random paragraph and pasted it into Google. Look what I found. Specifically, the middle hit. Check out that URL...



VinylPusher	Jul 20 2010, 08:53 PM Post #7
Posts: 1,275 Group: Lapsed Member #573 Joined: July 27, 2005 The best videogame ever is: Fallout 3 A good name for a band would be: Elephant Penis	I didn't think I was going barmy. I emailed Olin earlier today, keeping very reasonable and polite, but explaining why I stand by my comment and opinion. Perhaps a mini soap opera will ensue. I will keep you updated. If it's interesting. Thanks, guys.



RevStu	Jul 20 2010, 08:57 PM Post #8
Laird/Beast Of Glencairn Posts: 20,596 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: May 6, 2003 Football bias: Aberdeen, Scotland, Man Utd The best videogame ever is: Super Mario Galaxy A good name for a band would be: The Sting/Paxman Exchange Political affiliation George Square Thatcher Death Party	What did they say to you?



VinylPusher	Jul 20 2010, 09:07 PM Post #9
Posts: 1,275 Group: Lapsed Member #573 Joined: July 27, 2005 The best videogame ever is: Fallout 3 A good name for a band would be: Elephant Penis	I got: - Quote: Hello: Considering how many people visit our website, I�d like to ensure that my article has not led others into believing it�s an advertisement. The Embody chair was paid for out of my own pocket, with absolutely no sample/product coordination with the merchant. If you would please supply examples of how you perceive my eight-page article as an advertisement, it would be helpful. In the meantime, our comments have been unpublished until this gets sorted out. Olin Coles Executive Editor Benchmark Reviews



CraigGrannell	Jul 20 2010, 09:07 PM Post #10
Your thumping bass surrounds you Posts: 6,801 Group: Members Member #165 Joined: February 15, 2004	Your next email should simply be: http://www.hermanmiller.com/MarketFacingTech/hmc/products/Embody_Chairs/Embody_Chairs_brochure.pdf AHEM



RevStu	Jul 20 2010, 10:28 PM Post #11
Laird/Beast Of Glencairn Posts: 20,596 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: May 6, 2003 Football bias: Aberdeen, Scotland, Man Utd The best videogame ever is: Super Mario Galaxy A good name for a band would be: The Sting/Paxman Exchange Political affiliation George Square Thatcher Death Party	My comments have been deleted too.



VinylPusher	Jul 21 2010, 06:15 AM Post #12
Posts: 1,275 Group: Lapsed Member #573 Joined: July 27, 2005 The best videogame ever is: Fallout 3 A good name for a band would be: Elephant Penis	Wow. He's deleted your comments and made his own comment defending the article. Quote: Full Disclosure � Olin Coles 2010-07-20 15:46 This article contains two sections of text provided by Herman Miller: the company summary in "About Herman Miller, Inc." and the features introductions in "Herman Miller Chair Features". Both sections use italicized text to denote a quote, and both sections clearly list Herman Miller as the source. The remaining 99.9% of the article is a fully independent review of a self-purchased product. He's only gone and added a one-line disclaimer at the top of page 2 which reads: "Features Summary According to Herman Miller:" Part of my email to him, yesterday: '...I was looking for a sentence beginning "According to Herman Miller, Inc..." somewhere in those paragraphs.' What I was trying to get at, was that he has presented a swathe of text from the manufacturer entirely unchallenged within what is supposed to be an objective piece. Thus, "According to Herman Miller, Inc., this chair allows you to move in...." - which then should be challenged, evaluated and a conclusion made. Or something. I'm not a reviewer, so I'm not expert on these things. However, in the same way I'm not a gynaecologist, I still kinda know what something should look like without necessarily being a professional in the discipline.



RevStu	Jul 21 2010, 06:28 AM Post #13
Laird/Beast Of Glencairn Posts: 20,596 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: May 6, 2003 Football bias: Aberdeen, Scotland, Man Utd The best videogame ever is: Super Mario Galaxy A good name for a band would be: The Sting/Paxman Exchange Political affiliation George Square Thatcher Death Party	Ooh, I got a reply! Quote: Try to actually read the text before you go off and write destructive posts like a dim-witted Internet troll. Out of eight pages, there�s a two-paragraph section that begins with �According to Herman Miller�s website� and ends with Source: Herman Miller. Not only that, but the text was italicized showing it was a quote. Essentially, you�re just an anonymous Internet troll who thinks they�re clever with disposable email accounts and fake names. You�re not clever and apparently your reading skills are sub-par, too. Meanwhile, I haven't been able to access the review page for about six hours, in any browser - I get a 404. Other people have no problems, leading to the apparent conclusion that my IP address has been blocked. Apparently the page now DOES feature those additions, but silly old Benchmark Reviews have forgotten the existence of Google Cache, which clearly shows the previous version. Goodness me, how dishonest. I feel a feature coming on.



RevStu	Jul 21 2010, 06:49 AM Post #14
Laird/Beast Of Glencairn Posts: 20,596 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: May 6, 2003 Football bias: Aberdeen, Scotland, Man Utd The best videogame ever is: Super Mario Galaxy A good name for a band would be: The Sting/Paxman Exchange Political affiliation George Square Thatcher Death Party	I've dropped Mr Coles a line. Quote: Dear Mr Coles, Hello. I'm a professional freelance journalist of 20 years' standing (an archive of my work can be found at worldofstuart.co.uk), and a number of people have recently drawn my attention to your review of the Herman Miller Embody chair. I'm investigating some allegations about the review, and wondered if you could clear a couple of things up for me. I notice that the article has in the last 24 hours been amended to identify some sections as being written by Herman Miller, which were previously not identified as such. Interestingly, you appear to be claiming that the current version is the original, something which is easily disproven via Google Cache. Are these the only sections of the article not written by you personally? Can you confirm, for example, that the following passage is your own work? "Designed by Bill Stumpf (who pioneered the Aeron Chair) and Jeff Weber, the Herman Miller Embody chair goes a step beyond being merely "heath-neutral". Over time, it can actually improve the health of the person sitting in it. Scientific studies have shown that Embody users can experience better circulation, reduced resting heart rates, and less tissue damage around the sitting muscles. Embody promotes natural alignment in the spine, relieving stress across the entire back no matter how you twist and turn." If so, can you provide links to these "scientific studies", since presumably you wouldn't have cited them if you didn't read them yourself? Clearly, in the interests of fairness I'd like to have your side of the story before writing my piece. Should I not hear from you, obviously I'll have to proceed on the basis of the evidence available. Best regards, Rev. S. Campbell



VinylPusher	Jul 21 2010, 09:18 AM Post #15
Posts: 1,275 Group: Lapsed Member #573 Joined: July 27, 2005 The best videogame ever is: Fallout 3 A good name for a band would be: Elephant Penis	I'm attempting to suppress laughter. My boss is wondering what I'm up to. The initial reply to my comment was along the lines "read the entire article before commenting". Clearly, Mr Coles is prone to being immediately and insultingly defensive when challenged. Those comments were, sadly, deleted. I wonder if he will amend the article further, or remove it entirely? By cripes, I haven't had a good internet argument for a number of years. It is most exciting



RevStu	Jul 21 2010, 10:19 AM Post #16
Laird/Beast Of Glencairn Posts: 20,596 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: May 6, 2003 Football bias: Aberdeen, Scotland, Man Utd The best videogame ever is: Super Mario Galaxy A good name for a band would be: The Sting/Paxman Exchange Political affiliation George Square Thatcher Death Party	http://wosblog.podgamer.com/2010/07/21/benchmark-reviews-busted-more-like/



Molloy	Jul 21 2010, 10:19 AM Post #17
Posts: 1,355 Group: Members Member #760 Joined: January 11, 2006	What a disheartening insight into the corruptions at the heart of the office chair industry. After years of sitting on office chairs of varying quality over the years I've come to conclusion that they're all fucking horrible. Give me a solid, wooden chair with a straight back on it any day of the week. It's not as comfortable initially when you sit in it but after 8 hours you don't end up feeling like shit. Edited by Molloy, Jul 21 2010, 10:19 AM.



RevStu	Jul 21 2010, 10:45 AM Post #18
Laird/Beast Of Glencairn Posts: 20,596 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: May 6, 2003 Football bias: Aberdeen, Scotland, Man Utd The best videogame ever is: Super Mario Galaxy A good name for a band would be: The Sting/Paxman Exchange Political affiliation George Square Thatcher Death Party	Gosh, this seems awfully familiar: http://www.smartfurniture.com/products/Embody-Chair.html#Materials%20and%20Measurements



xbendystevex	Jul 21 2010, 11:27 AM Post #19
not that bendy really. Posts: 679 Group: Members Member #2,583 Joined: April 10, 2008 Football bias: Ipswich Town	Wow, good work everyone! When this is resolved perhaps the WoSBrain could try to work out what 'negative space' in chair filling material is.



RevStu	Jul 21 2010, 11:30 AM Post #20
Laird/Beast Of Glencairn Posts: 20,596 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: May 6, 2003 Football bias: Aberdeen, Scotland, Man Utd The best videogame ever is: Super Mario Galaxy A good name for a band would be: The Sting/Paxman Exchange Political affiliation George Square Thatcher Death Party	I think it means it's made of dark matter.



RevStu	Jul 21 2010, 11:50 AM Post #21
Laird/Beast Of Glencairn Posts: 20,596 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: May 6, 2003 Football bias: Aberdeen, Scotland, Man Utd The best videogame ever is: Super Mario Galaxy A good name for a band would be: The Sting/Paxman Exchange Political affiliation George Square Thatcher Death Party	Number of uses of the phrase "Herman Miller" in eight pages: 71. That's one every 64 words. For reference, this is how long 64 words is: Quote: Is a chair's purpose merely to furnish a place for us to sit? There are countless directions to discuss this subjective matter, but suffice it to say that a chair's purpose goes beyond a solid foundation for resting our weight. In an ideal chair, the design would be suitable for hours of comfortable sitting. The chair would accommodate healthy posture, and relieve stress from That's how much you can expect to read at a time before Olin Coles says "Herman Miller". "Embody" appears 104 times, or once every 44 words. This is 44 words: Quote: Is a chair's purpose merely to furnish a place for us to sit? There are countless directions to discuss this subjective matter, but suffice it to say that a chair's purpose goes beyond a solid foundation for resting our weight. In an ideal chair 5.4% of the entire review is taken up by the words "Herman Miller Embody".



xbendystevex	Jul 21 2010, 11:55 AM Post #22
not that bendy really. Posts: 679 Group: Members Member #2,583 Joined: April 10, 2008 Football bias: Ipswich Town	RevStu Jul 21 2010, 11:30 AM I think it means it's made of dark matter. Someone should tell science. They'd probably want to know.



VLII	Jul 21 2010, 12:05 PM Post #23
Posts: 296 Group: Members Member #4,808 Joined: May 14, 2010	RevStu Jul 21 2010, 11:50 AM Number of uses of the phrase "Herman Miller" in eight pages: 71. [...] 5.4% of the entire review is taken up by the words "Herman Miller Embody". Hoorah! I mentioned this on the WoSBlog. I feel validated. Top tip for would-be web marketeers: spamming an article full of your top target short-tail keywords, particularly if it's your product name, is an obvious give-away. "Look honey, I searched for that chair on the Intergoogle and I got all these great reviews saying how awesome it is!" The Herman Miller Embody Chair kidnapped Madeleine McCann and gave me cat AIDS.



VinylPusher	Jul 21 2010, 12:09 PM Post #24
Posts: 1,275 Group: Lapsed Member #573 Joined: July 27, 2005 The best videogame ever is: Fallout 3 A good name for a band would be: Elephant Penis	Part of me wonders if Olin wrote the review about his personal purchase in order to gain preference with Herman Miller so that they would send him more stuff. Or he gets a slice of click-through sales. I don't know. Another part of me thinks that the Executive Editor fancied himself as a reviewer and just isn't good at it.



VLII	Jul 21 2010, 12:12 PM Post #25
Posts: 296 Group: Members Member #4,808 Joined: May 14, 2010	I think it was an intentional example of... well, for example, I'm frequently contacted to be asked "Would your company like a review posting up on our special site full of awesome companies like yours? Our copy-writers would be happy to write it, we just ask that you link back to us, and if you have a news section or blog yourselves, please write how excited you are to receive such a positive review from such a great site as ours!" Sometimes they even say "You can write it yourselves if you want" or "If you have a paragraph that you want adding, we can" or "Are there any particular terms you'd like us to really focus on?" Sometimes it's free, sometimes it costs money, sometimes it involves reciprocal links etc. I'm quite certain it's an example of this practice.



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