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So, if we're going to review these laws
1 - Just review them and sort of go with the crowd we have here to come up with ideas? 1 (14.3%)
2 - Wait and get people here, then review the laws? 3 (42.9%)
3 - Set up some sort of legislative / judicial system, THEN go over the laws? Note: I think this requires #2 by default. 2 (28.6%)
4 - Establish some sort of different protocol to review the laws, then go over them? 1 (14.3%)
5 - Something else that isn't covered (please explain so I can add it in, lol)? 0 (0%)
6 - Don't review them at all - they're fine or reviewing them just won't work? 0 (0%)
Total Votes: 7
So, if we're going to review these laws
Topic Started: Jun 17 2010, 02:17 PM (613 Views)
Todd McCloud
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Has tea in the Sahara far too often.

What should come first?

Personally, I'm in the 2 or 3 camp. I know of a good amount of NSers who are good with lawmaking, so I'm sure they'd be more then happy to help us out, but not smother us either. Plus, there are ways to get people here in a positive way, and the more the merrier, so it may be beneficial to get more people involved, people who when it's all said and done could very well proclaim they are a citizen of TSP. I've been involved in these things before, and, while it is a lot of debating, having different people involved really spices things up, so to speak.

However, I don't want to initiate or start / do anything the region doesn't want to do. Ie, if no one wants to do #3, well, that's out of the question then, lol. But still, I guess I'm curious as to what others think. This doesn't mean the majority will win, but I'm curious as to what direction the region is thinking about going.

Note, for those who don't want to do anything, well, that's an option too, lol.

Also, I decided to keep it in poll form so those who were uncomfortable (or just don't want to write out an explanation for what they think, lol) didn't have to explain their position.
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Todd McCloud
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Has tea in the Sahara far too often.

*does the bump*
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QuietDad
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Seems to me you make a government first, then let the government make the laws. KInd of counter productive to make laws the a new goverments 1st business will be to modify/repeal/amend.

I feel that by the "inner circle" making laws then trying to appoint folks to run thm keeps more people away than telling the masses "Help us make a world. Get Involved."

Kinda like being a carpenter and getting hired to "Build this this way" or "Your gonna do the work, what do you suggest?"

Percieved or not, alot of new folks would love to get involved but each region has an inner circle that new folks don't want ot get involved for fear of annoying someone and getting banned/flamed/poked with a pointy stick from
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Southern Bellz
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Haha I meant to reply to this Todd, but I guess I didn't hit submit.

Anyways I don't know about you guys, but I feel with the recent debates going on about government, seeing some new guys like Quiet Dad starting to give their 2 cents and the fact that this region has never been in more control if its RMB with a mix of jokes, world cup talks and other things I think it is time to look at our laws.

Our current laws were made for an NS climate that has come and gone, and I think we need to adapt to those changes, the most important in my mind is rewarding proactive players for being proactive.

I think the most logical step to review the laws is to call this:

Quote:
 
Article 22 – Special Circumstances
Charter amendments will be accepted at a more rapid pace during special, well-advertised events such as the Great Assembly.
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tsrill
Unregistered

Yeah, grand assemblies have worked quite well in the past for dramatic overhauls of our laws. Our current charter is, except for a few minor amendments, the result of the last one. Needless to say it can only be successful if many people participate and if it is well-prepared.

Quote:
 
Seems to me you make a government first, then let the government make the laws. KInd of counter productive to make laws the a new goverments 1st business will be to modify/repeal/amend.

The government doesn't make laws, the people make laws. Of course a government can raise certain issues and try to drive home a point, but if they don't have the support of the rest of the populace, it won't happen. I see laws as a frame, the boundaries within which the government can operate.

That's the difference between a democracy and a dictatorship, I guess: in a dictatorship, the government tells the other people are allowed to do, in a democracy the other people tell the government what it is allowed to do.

But yeah, we still need people to organize such a grand assembly. If SB and Todd (I think the two of you are currently the only active government members?) can pull it off to organize this, we don't need elections first, otherwise we do. Although, quite frankly, I'm afraid new elections won't change the activity of the government much.

EDIT: One of the things that I mean with "well-prepared" is that those who advocate a change of laws need to have an idea what they want to change them to.

EDIT 2:
Quote:
 
I know of a good amount of NSers who are good with lawmaking, so I'm sure they'd be more then happy to help us out, but not smother us either.

I would advocate strongly against calling in other people to help us law-making, for several reasons. Firstly, we have a few people here who have done it before and are not too bad at this. Secondly, writing our own laws means we understand how they work and how they are intended; having others formulate our ideas in a way that we don't understand won't help us one bit. Third, writing a law isn't really that difficult. But most importantly, the best way to learn how legislative processes and laws work, is by doing it yourself. Where else can you get a hands-on experience at law-making? And if the resulting laws turn out to be crappy (and god knows this happened many times before), we can always amend them later. Gives us stuff to do.
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Polkstreet
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It most certainly DOES NOT taste like chicken!

Just going on the record as someone who actually reads this stuff. One of the few, the proud, the SP.

Historically we have never seen a great turnout in these endeavors from the region. Take the input you get, swirl it around a little and then solicit opinions from the cadre who show up. Those who care will be here. Those simply willing to follow will accept or leave. Pretty simple.



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QuietDad
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tsrill
Jun 18 2010, 05:29 PM
The government doesn't make laws, the people make laws.

I have seen too often that the "people" and the "goverment" are the same thing. IMO the reason that others don't get involved in the forumns is that it starts with half a dozen "active" people that make laws, appoint/vote thmeselves to government positions and new players or players that would otherwise get active don't because they're afraid of getting kicked/banned/laughed at if they voice an opinion.
Before I start, let me be perfectly clear that I belive in "When in Rome, Do as the Romans do" and I'm just voicing an opinion and not starting anything. That said:

Things like an endocap in a feeder region make no sense to me. The delegate SHOULD be someone cabable of massing the most people to support his or her cause. Someone sitting/serving as delgate only because they can kick someone before they get close is a dictatorship regardless of how "democratic" you want to make things seem.

I understand raiding/puppet nations and threats as such, but if the fear of losing the delagacy to nothing more that one nation who spends the time to tart the region is paranioa where as 140 puppet nations moving to the region endorsing one new arrival is defense.

3 or four active board members drawing up a charter that 2,620 nations in the regions never see or are aware of then disiplining someone not involved in/aware of the process also shuts up everyone else in fear of going thru the same. It makes people fear of doing anything in order not to do anything wrong.


Im starting to sound like Obama in spouting of problems and not offering solutions but solutions here come in communications. Who knows, mayde a big add campaign on World Factbook combined with a mass TG campaign with links to a "what do you want SP to be" thread would be something of a start, but again I'm just thinking out loud. Just seems "We want to make a new start so lets get out the rules that didn't work" is not a good starting point.

I know we ALL just want to see/make/belong to a fun region but getting 2,620 nations to get involved and actually agree is one massive task.



By the way Veni, Vidi, Vamoose translates to "I came, I saw, I chased you away"
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tsrill
Unregistered

Are people really that scared to voice their opinions? What is this fear based on? It's not like there is a long history here for banning people. Then it doesn't matter who will be in power, as there will always be someone in power and those who are not in power will be too scared to speak out. Which puts us right back at the start only with different people on the positions.



Quote:
 
Things like an endocap in a feeder region make no sense to me. The delegate SHOULD be someone cabable of massing the most people to support his or her cause. Someone sitting/serving as delgate only because they can kick someone before they get close is a dictatorship regardless of how "democratic" you want to make things seem.

A delegate who is not allowed to kick nations, will not be in power for long. I'd give it a few weeks, at most. Sure, a delegate should put effort into gathering endorsements. But no real person can do this every day, all the time. It will only take one weekend off, for example, and the former delegate will be in the rejected realms when they come back.

There are many ways to play NationStates. Some like the political and community aspect of the region they are in. Some like the political and community aspect that the official NationStates forums can offer. Some like to role play with their nation. Some like to toy around with answering the issues and see how this affects their nations, while not caring about any forums or communities. Some like to interact in the World Assembly and want to shape the world to their ideas. Some like the raider/defender game. Or any combination of the aforementioned modes of play.

So what is the South Pacific like? 2500-something Nations, of which about 20 occasionally or regular make their way to the forums. 5 of those are elected into government positions. Of those other 2480, some are people who have been in the region for ages but choose not to interact. Many of those 2480 are puppets, I think, experiments of people with many nations. A large part of those 2480 is rather mobile: nations that get created, are only in the feeders for a short time while looking for a player created region.

A large telegram campaign "what would you like this region to be" would certainly be very interesting. Linking to a thread on this forum won't help, as many cannot be bothered to sign up on a forum and post. So the answer needs to be sent back by telegram. Since there's only a limited amount of telegrams you can store, this campaign needs to be sent out in 200 batches. A massive undertaking indeed! Maybe an easier starting point is to put this as the next RMB question. Now that the RMB is a bit livelier again, it would be a good opportunity.




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htz3
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Former Delegate Member of COG

Well I suppose no. 2 is the best choice.
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Todd McCloud
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Has tea in the Sahara far too often.

tsrill
Jun 19 2010, 04:38 AM
Are people really that scared to voice their opinions? What is this fear based on? It's not like there is a long history here for banning people. Then it doesn't matter who will be in power, as there will always be someone in power and those who are not in power will be too scared to speak out. Which puts us right back at the start only with different people on the positions.


((I'm going to do a double, perhaps triple post, so bear with me, folks!))

Anyway, in reference to the aforementioned comment, I don't think it's fear as much as I think it's a combination of apathy, lack of information, and an overall sense of "well, I'm just a new person, and these guys have a population of 10 billion or more! What could I possibly have to offer without sounding dumb in the process?!" or some form of confusion. At least that's my thoughts. We were all new nations at one time, thought it can be hard to think like a new nation. Still, I'd like for us to really break down those walls. Information can be helped. The feeling of inadequacy can be helped. Confusion can be helped. Apathy cannot really be helped. So, I think the concentration needs to be on newer nations. Perhaps some middle aged and older nations could be roped in, but time will tell.


Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Things like an endocap in a feeder region make no sense to me. The delegate SHOULD be someone cabable of massing the most people to support his or her cause. Someone sitting/serving as delgate only because they can kick someone before they get close is a dictatorship regardless of how "democratic" you want to make things seem.

A delegate who is not allowed to kick nations, will not be in power for long. I'd give it a few weeks, at most. Sure, a delegate should put effort into gathering endorsements. But no real person can do this every day, all the time. It will only take one weekend off, for example, and the former delegate will be in the rejected realms when they come back.

Well, Kandarin has been in power of TRR for a while now. And even Griff of Laz has been in power for almost exactly over one year now. While we in the pacifics will always have that power to lay the banhammer down on offending or threatening nations, a lot of potential coups can be stopped by a person who has the class and character that extend from their region and into other facets of gameplay. Kandarin is a prime example of this. His character and credibility in this game is unparalleled, and it shows every time someone takes the delegacy in TRR. Usually he's back at the top in about 24 hours. Some people have that, and for those who do, it's certainly a helpful thing. Buuuut, I digress. I'm steering offroad and off topic, lol.

Quote:
 
So what is the South Pacific like? 2500-something Nations, of which about 20 occasionally or regular make their way to the forums. 5 of those are elected into government positions. Of those other 2480, some are people who have been in the region for ages but choose not to interact. Many of those 2480 are puppets, I think, experiments of people with many nations. A large part of those 2480 is rather mobile: nations that get created, are only in the feeders for a short time while looking for a player created region.

I had a sort of thought experiment on this with a few other NSers in relation to the demographics of TEP and any common feeder in general. We broke it down and sort of gave our conventions as to what consisted of a feeder. The way I see it, TSP has 243 WA nations, or, in relation to the total feeder's population of 2607 (at the time of this post), about 9.3%, give or take. Then, there are nations that sign onto their nation and at the very least keep it alive, but aren't in the WA. This includes other people's puppets, defender / raider puppets, etc. I believe this number is around 30%, after watching my puppet nation here fall down the charts of longevity in TSP. So that's about 40% in total so far. Should be a small number. What's left? New nations, and nations where someone signs on and then lets the nation die. They must be the other 60% But they have to be about equal, right, as our population numbers don't fluctuate that much, so, I'm going to split it down the middle at around 30/30. Maybe this is a bit optimistic, to be honest. But yeah. *shrugs*

It does, however, speak volumes about the current state of what's going on on the forums. Now, we've got about two dozen or so people here who I'd call regulars, but that's not even one percent. While this is kind of common throughout the feeders (with a few minor exceptions), I would like to get that number higher. Can we? I think so. Will it be anything more than 2%? I would highly doubt it, but you never know. We should at least try. Wake up the region, so to speak, hook a few new nations, etc. Let's see where it goes.

Quote:
 
A large telegram campaign "what would you like this region to be" would certainly be very interesting. Linking to a thread on this forum won't help, as many cannot be bothered to sign up on a forum and post. So the answer needs to be sent back by telegram. Since there's only a limited amount of telegrams you can store, this campaign needs to be sent out in 200 batches. A massive undertaking indeed! Maybe an easier starting point is to put this as the next RMB question. Now that the RMB is a bit livelier again, it would be a good opportunity.

The mods like me, so I can send out many telegrams at once

lol, just kidding. But it is a bit easier to do that now for large nations. Hmmm... you have given me an idea. Seeing as I started this thread, and I'm that MOR guy who just sits here and asks questions and adds some anecdotes to things, I might as well try to undertake this. Heck, I did it a few times in TEP. Why not try it? I'll give a 200 or so a go tonight. I'll let you know what I come up with in the coming days.
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Todd McCloud
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Has tea in the Sahara far too often.

tsrill
Jun 18 2010, 05:29 PM
EDIT 2:
Quote:
 
I know of a good amount of NSers who are good with lawmaking, so I'm sure they'd be more then happy to help us out, but not smother us either.

I would advocate strongly against calling in other people to help us law-making, for several reasons. Firstly, we have a few people here who have done it before and are not too bad at this. Secondly, writing our own laws means we understand how they work and how they are intended; having others formulate our ideas in a way that we don't understand won't help us one bit. Third, writing a law isn't really that difficult. But most importantly, the best way to learn how legislative processes and laws work, is by doing it yourself. Where else can you get a hands-on experience at law-making? And if the resulting laws turn out to be crappy (and god knows this happened many times before), we can always amend them later. Gives us stuff to do.

Alright, that makes sense to me. I guess I drew a comparison to the last major law-making conference I was in with TEP, but we started from a clean slate, mostly because we felt we needed a new system after The Empire. I don't believe that is the direction we want to take here at all. We have a good setup as it stands, but I believe it could use a review, a few tweaks, but we will see what happens when we embark on such a task, I suppose.

I do remember working with people on documents and laws past who I believe are very good at offering input during such a grueling task (Eluvatar of Taijitu / TNP comes to mind, ie), but yeah, lol.
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Fudgie
Guy Fawkes' Campaign Manager

Polkstreet
Jun 19 2010, 11:22 AM
Just going on the record as someone who actually reads this stuff. One of the few, the proud, the SP.

Historically we have never seen a great turnout in these endeavors from the region. Take the input you get, swirl it around a little and then solicit opinions from the cadre who show up. Those who care will be here. Those simply willing to follow will accept or leave. Pretty simple.

And the ones who whinge the loudest are generally the poorest participants.

Why not review one law at a time. Advertise the review on the RMB, set dates for the review and invite open, honest participation. That way, noone can complain they missed the review or weren't invited or the SP's evil ogliarchy are taking over the world again.

And it's a large job handled in smaller portions.

And whilst I may not deal with change too well - particularly anything I perceive to be going against what I know TSP stands for, if it has a clear, coherant and logical reasoning behind it - I can be persuaded.
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htz3
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Former Delegate Member of COG

I hate to say this but I think the only way we will get more people here is by having Delegate Elections. I know what this will mean we will loose the stability we enjoy but as we became more stable we had less and less people coming here. Look at the regions with the largest participation they all make becoming delegate far easier than we do or you have to go the hobnail boot route and have a dictatorship. I know this is not how we like it but if we want to keep the region from dieing I think we need to rethink everything.

Southern Bellz I mean no disrespect to you or fudge, or CR, or any of the delegates who have lead this region. I include myself in that group.

Okay now let me have it.
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BKB


Quote:
 
I would advocate strongly against calling in other people to help us law-making, for several reasons. Firstly, we have a few people here who have done it before and are not too bad at this. Secondly, writing our own laws means we understand how they work and how they are intended; having others formulate our ideas in a way that we don't understand won't help us one bit. Third, writing a law isn't really that difficult. But most importantly, the best way to learn how legislative processes and laws work, is by doing it yourself. Where else can you get a hands-on experience at law-making? And if the resulting laws turn out to be crappy (and god knows this happened many times before), we can always amend them later. Gives us stuff to do.


I’d have to agree here, if they are perfect at the start then we will not need to fix them when issues arise. And nobody but TSPers should write TSP laws or at least TSPers should have the greatest say in these laws.

The fear of being wrong

I don’t think this is as big an issue as you suggest. I think anyone who signs up on these forums and actually starts to get involved will have no problem getting involved. I think the reason no one posts is twofold, apathy on new players part and apathy on the government part both in terms of creating life and things to do for new players and in terms of actually getting these nations on the forum. We can only control our end of the bargain, creating life and getting people on the forum.

Whole Regional Particpation

The region in my view is not the 2500 people who are on the game but the people on the forum. If this was a user region id say the whole region would be the region in my view but due to the nature of the feeders in terms of movement in and out its really only the people who stick around and get involved that I would consider members of this region. I dunno if that made sense but ill explain differently if it didn’t.

So the integral part of this is to get people on the forum and when they are here keep them here. Now I think we should do as Todd has said he is doing telegram the natives of this region. Why? Because for too long feeder regions have expected nations to arrive on their doorstep and this has infected them with an apathy and almost bewilderment when times are tough and the region is inactive, they don’t know what to do. So may I suggest that we divide the duties of telegramming nations into different sections, perhaps based on the alphabet.

That way we can give people here who are less active a few letter whom they must telegram and the more active more letters. This would also ensure we don’t miss any nations nor do we telegram any twice. I remember we did this during the Pixiedance issue in TNP and it worked to great effect when doing an un-endorsement campaign.

Thoughts?
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Kandarin
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Perdition Tour Guide

Todd McCloud
Jun 19 2010, 05:37 PM
Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Things like an endocap in a feeder region make no sense to me. The delegate SHOULD be someone cabable of massing the most people to support his or her cause. Someone sitting/serving as delgate only because they can kick someone before they get close is a dictatorship regardless of how "democratic" you want to make things seem.

A delegate who is not allowed to kick nations, will not be in power for long. I'd give it a few weeks, at most. Sure, a delegate should put effort into gathering endorsements. But no real person can do this every day, all the time. It will only take one weekend off, for example, and the former delegate will be in the rejected realms when they come back.

Well, Kandarin has been in power of TRR for a while now. And even Griff of Laz has been in power for almost exactly over one year now. While we in the pacifics will always have that power to lay the banhammer down on offending or threatening nations, a lot of potential coups can be stopped by a person who has the class and character that extend from their region and into other facets of gameplay. Kandarin is a prime example of this. His character and credibility in this game is unparalleled, and it shows every time someone takes the delegacy in TRR. Usually he's back at the top in about 24 hours. Some people have that, and for those who do, it's certainly a helpful thing. Buuuut, I digress. I'm steering offroad and off topic, lol.

I can't speak for Lazarus (or comment on most of this thread) but the RR's defensibility is largely because of the double-sided nature of the lack of ejection. I can't eject people, but if someone takes over, then they can't eject me either. The smartest and best-prepared aggressors figure this out early and realize that the RR delegacy isn't worth chasing because they won't have the tools to secure their victory. The end result favors me, but it's basically even. A delegate who wouldn't eject their opponents (but who has opponents who can and would ban him/her) would not enjoy a comparable balance.

That said, the Delegate election laws (if I understand them correctly) predate the influence, as it were, of Influence. So long as a lot of the region's prominent members have or are gathering decent influence, you can be a lot less strict about who becomes Delegate since the stakes will be lower.
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htz3
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Former Delegate Member of COG

One of the reasons for playing this game is for people to try to become the Delegate of one of the huge regions. We protect our delegate very well here. We are also having less and less people coming here because we value our stability so much.

Maybe I'm wrong since I never visited the other regions that much at least not since I had all the physical problems.
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Todd McCloud
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Has tea in the Sahara far too often.

htz3
Jun 22 2010, 04:53 PM
One of the reasons for playing this game is for people to try to become the Delegate of one of the huge regions. We protect our delegate very well here. We are also having less and less people coming here because we value our stability so much.

Maybe I'm wrong since I never visited the other regions that much at least not since I had all the physical problems.

Htz, while this may not be a popular opinion here, I really do believe in forum-run delegate elections. I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but really, those things do tend to wake people up and well, they're fun to watch. Plus it kind of helps with that whole 'democracy' thing. Whatever that is. (just kidding, lol)

I've been thinking a bit over this and believe this law-reviewing process may take some time, but while we review it, we should make sure we're all focused on that. That being said, I'd vouch for not doing delegate elections at this time for the sake of unity and helping us stay on task. Time will tell!
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Southern Bellz
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I just want to put it out there I am not ready to step down as delegate, in fact I honestly feel like I am just starting to hit my stride. I just find it a bit odd that during ages while fudge was delegate and while she was a bit on the inactive side I didn't see much calling for delegate elections, but now that I am here and active I see it from time to time being brought up. I hope that is not a reflection of my leadership or my ability as delegate.

As far as forum driven elections, I am highly against that. The selection system in TSP is democratic, unique, and involves the actual game of NS. If anything we need to integrate this forum community more with NS, not vise versa.

The next logical step to me, is to hold a grand assembly. I think we should consider pulling ideas from other regions, but at the same time make it work with our flair, our spirt. We're The South Pacific, and we have the potential to be the greatest region in NS. We have a core group of guys (and dolls?) who are fantastic at maintaining the security of this region, and we have a new group of guys who have ambition to do something with a secure feeder region. Together I really think this region can transform into not only THE feeder, but THE region.
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Fudgie
Guy Fawkes' Campaign Manager

Trust me Bellz, it was raised in the past when I was delegate - even when I was more active.

I don't see much of an issue with delegate elections - however, in the past, I have seen it where a delegate was fairly elected - and the old delegate booted them and overthrew everything. I'm not saying htat would happen here, but still, it is something to bear in mind.
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tsrill
Unregistered

Southern Bellz
Jul 3 2010, 05:37 AM
I just want to put it out there I am not ready to step down as delegate, in fact I honestly feel like I am just starting to hit my stride. I just find it a bit odd that during ages while fudge was delegate and while she was a bit on the inactive side I didn't see much calling for delegate elections, but now that I am here and active I see it from time to time being brought up. I hope that is not a reflection of my leadership or my ability as delegate.

I don't think you should worry about that, rather I would see it is an example of activity catalyzing itself. Somehow activity always comes in bursts.
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htz3
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Former Delegate Member of COG

Bells I hope you understand that my suggestion had nothing to do with how you are doing as a delegate. I think you are doing great. I brought this up as a point of discussion and more wondering what the feeling about it would be. I half expected for someone to suggest that I be keelhauled.

No matter what we decide I think if we want more activity we need to do something radical.
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Nervea
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Can't we just review the laws one by one and decide if we like the way it is or if we want to make changes? If we decide to change a law, we could then have debate to decide what we like and dislike about the law.
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<<Deus Ex Machina>>
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The problem with reviewing the laws one at a time is that many of them may be interrelated - or we might be able to design a better system by making more laws interrelated. Though we might initially think a law is fine as is, we may later need to modify it to tie in with changes in another law. Of course, the alternative would be disorganized and may be overwhelming.

The way I see it, a system with elements of both democracy and meritocracy is a stronger motivator than a system of pure democracy. Democracy rewards manipulation and charisma more than it does effort and activity.

If we're still sending out telegrams, let me know - depending on my schedule, I may be able to provide some help :)
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rappaggan
The Emperor of The Holy Empire of Rappaggan

I think if we wait for more people, unless you can talk to them by msn or facebook or something like that, most of us will forget that we have to review the laws.

Also, i think we can create a "mega topic" and post it on every topic, so if you connect and try to go to every topic category, ie, to the general-technical topics, the first topic you found is the link to the laws review.

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Important Topics

Pinned: LAWS REVIEW (click)

And you read something like:

We in TSP are going to have a Laws Review from XX/XX/2010 to XX/XX/2010 (something like 2 weeks or so).
We expect that every TSP citizen participe as a moral duty voting and/or apporting ideas to get the laws of TSP improved to make this place a better place!!!!!!

Make your voice Heard!!!!!!!!

And something like that.
And here the older ones have more work over the newbies like me, as you know i have like a month here, so i dont have mails or facebooks of other TSP citizens, but the olders probably have one or two they can contact to return to the region
And also if there are people who were off line for a while and then suddenly connect to see how TSP is going, they will notice the topic!!!!


JUST AN IDEA!!!
(I hope a good one)

RAPPAGGAN
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rappaggan
The Emperor of The Holy Empire of Rappaggan

Also, another idea is comming to my head:...

When the Laws Review beggins, a new topic shall be created as LAWS REVIEW, and inside it every law and/or article shall have a separate sub-topic so when the time of review ended it will be easy to revise each law/article and more organizated to make the final Public Presentation of the Laws(... cant remember the exact word).

Thats all for now, i hope this help and not make the ridiculous in front of all !!!1
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