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Nationalism; inspired by the Nazis in NS thread
Topic Started: Jan 23 2005, 02:55 PM (236 Views)
j delight
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So what do people think about nationalism/patriotism in general? Do you think it is a positive factor in societies or destructive?
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tsrill
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It can be both, depending on how strong it is and what its base is.

There's nothing wrong with a little patriotism based on self-awareness, even more, I think it is necessary; it stimulates society and local culture. When there's a complete lack of patriotism, people won't associate any more with the people around them. This leads to apathy, disbanding of social structures and finally to anarchy. Some patriotism is necessary to create a "we" feeling, to form a local "tribe" which can compete with other "tribes", other groups of people who associate with each other. Then there is the drive that "we" can do better than "them". But you have to be open to the others, to see what they are doing and to learn from them.

However, if the patriotism is mainly based on fear of the other group, you've gone over the edge, especially if other people tell you who are the good guys and who are the bad guys, who the people are to be afraid of. Openness, competition and learning effect is gone. All that is left is social, intellectual and cultural inbreeding, and hatred; bigotry, racism and discrimination. And finally your nation or local community gets a giant kick in the ass, in economical or military terms. Or both.

So far a n00bs view on sociology B)

-Tsrill
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Lakarian
Traveller in the Multiverse

Patriotism is a good thing as long as you go by Thomas Jefferson's definition "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism". Of course the prevalent opinion here in the U.S. is dissent is treason. The Advocates of this seem to coveniently forget that many past and present dictators that they profess to hate felt the same way.
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tsrill
Jan 24 2005, 04:18 AM
It can be both, depending on how strong it is and what its base is.....

....So far a n00bs view on sociology B)

-Tsrill

Wow, well said. I completely agree. :bow:
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Wachovia Coalition
visitor from the East Pacific

Lakarian
Jan 24 2005, 10:34 AM
Patriotism is a good thing as long as you go by Thomas Jefferson's definition "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism". Of course the prevalent opinion here in the U.S. is dissent is treason. The Advocates of this seem to coveniently forget that many past and present dictators that they profess to hate felt the same way.

With great respect, I would suggest we take care in saying such things. While political rhetoric has attempted to silence some points of view at some points in time, we hardly can liken it to places where it really is treason.

I believe patriotism has resulted from some healthy feelings of gratitude for a land and love for the extended family of community. That said, I think there are much better expressions of those things.
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j delight
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Good point, W. It does depend on the cultural and legal context of the actions we alternately refer to as nationalism (bad connotation) and patriotism (good connotation.)

It also depends on how you express those feelings. Each and every time someone refers to those who merely disagree with the president of the US (applies other places obviously) as TRAITORS and UNAMERICAN, their rhetoric is destructive in some way. However, it is just rhetoric for the most part. Using fear and intimidation to prove you are a good patriot or that someone else is not, is wrong (as you pointed out, Tsrill.)

We have a great deal of freedom of speech that we choose not to exercise for fear of what others may say about us. Giving into rhetoric and *perceived* limitations. Speak up more often and you will find that sticks and stones are not used against you nearly as often or as strongly as you may think.

I happen to agree with the idea that speaking up and disagreeing with the government is a high act of patriotism. It is a postitive form of national pride. It is better than than just sitting around waiting for the lead lemming to take you over a cliff.
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parrrrtay
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Do not follow me, for I am lost...

j delight
Jan 24 2005, 04:56 PM
I happen to agree with the idea that speaking up and disagreeing with the government is a high act of patriotism.  It is a postitive form of national pride.  It is better than than just sitting around waiting for the lead lemming to take you over a cliff.

I completely agree with you JD, as my Nation motto states:
"Stand up for something or you will fall for everything!"
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Lakarian
Traveller in the Multiverse

Wachovia Coalition
Jan 24 2005, 03:53 PM
Lakarian
Jan 24 2005, 10:34 AM
Patriotism is a good thing as long as you go by Thomas Jefferson's definition "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism". Of course the prevalent opinion here in the U.S. is dissent is treason. The Advocates of this seem to coveniently forget that many past and present dictators that they profess to hate felt the same way.

With great respect, I would suggest we take care in saying such things. While political rhetoric has attempted to silence some points of view at some points in time, we hardly can liken it to places where it really is treason.

I believe patriotism has resulted from some healthy feelings of gratitude for a land and love for the extended family of community. That said, I think there are much better expressions of those things.

I did'nt mean that dissent was all there was to patriotism, just an important part.
Patriotism also means loving the things right about your country of course.
But just as you'd tell a friend or family member they had a milk moustache or toilet paper sticking to their shoe, it is an act of consideration and love, not hate or sedition to point out when you think your country might be headed for a cliff, considerately and diplomatically of course but still firmly.
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Nations, such as China's citizens, do not have this opportunity yet they are very patriotic.

I tend to think that patriotism is more about your history and culture, rather than "where I am from and where I live". Because of this attitude I would probably be more patriotic if I was Chinese rather than Canadian.
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Lakarian
Traveller in the Multiverse

Well when citizens have a strong love of country but are'nt given leave to critcize I'd say it was more nationalism than patriotism but I suppose it's just semantics.
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Wachovia Coalition
visitor from the East Pacific

in current definitions of the word in the US patriotism is a broader term while nationalism is a more defined term that is related to promoting one's nation more than the nations of others. it's no wonder then that nationalism would have and seems to often have a more negative connotation.
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Curlyhoward
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we alllllllll float down here.....

A famous bumper sticker here in Curlyhoward states - "I love my country, it's my government i don't trust."

That's one of our 'cleaner' bumper stickers that i can share with you, some of the others, well, they would probably make even Parrrrtay blush....
B)
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The Savage Lands Deuce
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"Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception." -George Orwell
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htz3
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Former Delegate Member of COG

Depends on your definitions I suppose.

What I mean by that is I love my country but I was never one believed in the quote
Quote:
 
America Love it or Leave it

Because at the time that was being used to show support for vietnma which I never did.

I protested against that war because I love my country.
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parrrrtay
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Do not follow me, for I am lost...

There are many ways to define Nationalism, but I like this definition best:

Nationalism is love of country.

There are many kinds of love, as we all discover as we grow up, but fundamental to understanding love is that it requires a sense of self-worth and dignity.
You cannot love and be loved, first of all, if you do not love yourself. And you cannot love properly if your love is the kind that is dependent merely on the approval of others, or measured by what you might believe to be the superior love of others.
To love one's country is to love one's land and people with all their flaws, despite all their wrongs; and to maintain, at the same time, a conviction that one's love for nation and nationhood will result in a better, stronger country.
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