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Student loans: The latest credit crisis
Topic Started: Apr 29 2008, 11:53 AM (826 Views)
Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Nothing in your quoted section suggests that the slaves wanted to be slaves. Even if some were treated well that doesn't prove they wanted to be there.

Check out my information on Spartacus again. 70,000 slaves revolted. Some of them were well loved house slaves.......
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RTW
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ds9074
Apr 30 2008, 02:35 AM
No everyone should have an equal right to vote...
That's the answer to a question that wasn't asked.


ds9074
Apr 30 2008, 02:35 AM
For example everyone has to live equally under the law. It would be wrong to give some people more influence and others less in elections to a legislature that decides those laws.
How and why is it wrong to allow the people who actually pay for government to have more influence over how it operates.

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Minuet
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Dandandat
Apr 30 2008, 12:43 PM
Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 12:30 PM
Dandandat
Apr 30 2008, 12:17 PM
Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 12:09 PM
Dandandat
Apr 30 2008, 12:06 PM
Minute
 
In my opinion it is not critical thinking at all. It is a misuse of terminology.


Which terminology was misused in my description of Roman slavery?

allowed and paid.

How so?

Quote:
 
al·low (ə-lou')

v., -lowed, -low·ing, -lows.

v.tr.
To let do or happen; permit: We allow smoking only in restricted areas.
To permit the presence of: No pets are allowed inside.
To permit to have: allow oneself a little treat.
To make provision for; assign: The schedule allows time for a coffee break.
To plan for in case of need: allow two inches in the fabric for shrinkage.
To grant as a discount or in exchange: allowed me 20 dollars on my old typewriter.
Chiefly Southern & Midland U.S.
To admit; concede: I allowed he was right.
To think; suppose: “We allow he's straight” (American Speech).
To assert; declare: Mother allowed that we'd better come in for dinner.

http://www.answers.com/allowed&r=67



Permit the presence of; The Romans permit the presence of the Slaves in the Roman Empire instead of killing them or runing them off their lands.

pay1 (pâ)

Quote:
 
v., paid (pâd), pay·ing, pays.

v.tr.
To give money to in return for goods or services rendered: pay the cashier.
To give (money) in exchange for goods or services: paid four dollars for a hamburger; paid an hourly wage.
To discharge or settle (a debt or obligation): paying taxes; paid the bill.

To give recompense for; requite: a kindness that cannot be paid back.
To give recompense to; reward or punish: I'll pay him back for his insults.
To bear (a cost or penalty, for example) in recompense: She paid the price for her unpopular opinions.
To yield as a return: a savings plan that paid six percent interest.
To afford an advantage to; profit: It paid us to be generous.
To give or bestow: paying compliments; paying attention.
To make (a visit or call).
Past tense and past participle paid or payed (pâd). To let out (a line or cable) by slackening.


To bear; The Slaves bore the life of a slave in exchange for life and a certain level of prosperity.


Nope I think I used those terms quite right.

The word "force" does not appear in your definition of "allowed". The slaves were not just "allowed" to live. They were forced into servitude.

And your definition of paid does not include the word "theft" If you are forced to give up all you have to another it is called "theft" not payment.

Dandandat - all you are doing is proving that I am correct about the meanings of words being watered down. I suggest you give it up now. :lol:

Now who is trying to redefine words?

You aren't making any sense Dandandat.

I am not changing the meanings of the words. I agree that the definitions you linked are quite correct. And I am noting that you are incorrect in that the slaves were not just "allowed" to live in the Roman Empire. They were forced to be a part of it.

And the slaves of the Roman Empire did not give the Romans anything in return for goods and services. They had thier property and possessions taken from them unwillingly. That is theft not payment.

And tying this all back to taxes - Americans do pay willingly. If they are unwilling to pay they are free to leave the country and move elsewhere. They might grumble a lot - but thier choice to stay is equivalent to thier making a free choice to pay a certain amount to the government in return for services they feel they need.

The difference between a slave and a free man is the ability to make the choice to stay or leave.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
RTW
Apr 30 2008, 12:58 PM
ds9074
Apr 30 2008, 02:35 AM
No everyone should have an equal right to vote...
That's the answer to a question that wasn't asked.


ds9074
Apr 30 2008, 02:35 AM
For example everyone has to live equally under the law. It would be wrong to give some people more influence and others less in elections to a legislature that decides those laws.
How and why is it wrong to allow the people who actually pay for government to have more influence over how it operates.

Your country revolted against a monarchy. If you wish to live under such conditions again there are plenty of countries you could move to. :lol:
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RTW
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Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 08:19 AM
The price you pay to be in a civilized society.
We should call it an "enablized" society.


Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 08:19 AM
I wonder what society would be like if all social programs never existed.
More personal responsibility and personal accountability would undoubtedly make it stronger. There'd be less poverty, less crime, more appreciation of education, better work ethic. Neighborhoods would be stronger and more unified as people would have to rely on one another.


Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 08:19 AM
The USA would certainly be different - there is no use in pretending that social programs don't exist there. They do and they have had a huge impact in creating the society you have today.
Yes, they've created a society of victimhood.
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RTW
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Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 08:42 AM
They were conquered and forced to be slaves.

You've just described how conservative taxpayers in the USA feel. ;)
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HistoryDude
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Shaken, not stirred...
Quote:
 
The difference between a slave and a free man is the ability to make the choice to stay or leave.


Well, by that definition, then the slaves of the Roman Empire and the black slaves of early America were not slaves, either. They had the choice to leave or stay. Many left. Spartacus and his followers were one example. Harriet Tubman and her followers another.

Don't kid yourself. We are slaves. You to your government and me to mine. Our rights and living conditions may be better, but I'll make a bet with you. Really try to do whatever and however you want and see what the threat and use of force really reveals about your relationship with your government...
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Minuet
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HD - what you describe fails to recognize the dangers of escaping over being able to simply walk out the door. The element of choice.

I am sorry - but those who have been truly enslaved would be insulted to see free people usurping the word slavery to describe any simple cedence of authority to a democratically elected government.

Remember in the US you describe your government as "of the people and by the people" Are you enslaved to yourself??????
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Minuet
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RTW
Apr 30 2008, 01:05 PM
Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 08:19 AM
The price you pay to be in a civilized society.
We should call it an "enablized" society.


Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 08:19 AM
I wonder what society would be like if all social programs never existed.
More personal responsibility and personal accountability would undoubtedly make it stronger. There'd be less poverty, less crime, more appreciation of education, better work ethic. Neighborhoods would be stronger and more unified as people would have to rely on one another.


Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 08:19 AM
The USA would certainly be different - there is no use in pretending that social programs don't exist there. They do and they have had a huge impact in creating the society you have today.
Yes, they've created a society of victimhood.

I disagree. What you would have is exactly what you fought the War of Independance to escape. You would have a small number of people with the ability to climb to the top and subjucate everyone else.

Education is the key to power. Educating the masses helps prevent the power from becoming too concentrated.
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HistoryDude
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Shaken, not stirred...
Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 11:54 AM
HD - what you describe fails to recognize the dangers of escaping over being able to simply walk out the door. The element of choice.

I cannot escape (leave) this country without my government's or another's approval and doing it "their" way under "their rules." If I was truly free, I could simply walk into Canada or sail to Brazil. I cannot. If I tried, I would be arrested and punished.

Quote:
 
I am sorry - but those who have been truly enslaved would be insulted to see free people usurping the word slavery to describe any simple cedence of authority to a democratically elected government.


I understand your point and will only refer to different degrees of slavery and do not mean to diminish what blacks experienced in colonial days and the early Republic over here - or what Eastern European women are forced into today in the sex trade.

Quote:
 
Remember in the US you describe your government as "of the people and by the people" Are you enslaved to yourself??????


I don't describe it as that. "Of the people and by the people" is now a pipe dream. I'm not sure it ever was a reality, to be honest, but that is another philosophical tangent for another thread. I am enslaved to my government just like my ancestors in the 18th century. I have less rights than they enjoyed, and this is why the Founding Fathers established the government that they did. They knew it was a necessary evil that enslaved people, so they created one that would be as restricted as possible. So much for that plan...
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RTW
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Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 10:57 AM
What you would have is exactly what you fought the War of Independance to escape. You would have a small number of people with the ability to climb to the top and subjucate everyone else.
Unless them crazy Brits are still subjucating the masses, you seem to be assuming that human nature hasn't changed over the past couple of centuries.

DS - are you subjucated?


Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 10:57 AM
Education is the key to power.
Agreed. (I'd say the application of education....).


Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 10:57 AM
Educating the masses helps prevent the power from becoming too concentrated.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
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Minuet
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RTW
Apr 30 2008, 04:10 PM
Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 10:57 AM
What you would have is exactly what you fought the War of Independance to escape. You would have a small number of people with the ability to climb to the top and subjucate everyone else.
Unless them crazy Brits are still subjucating the masses, you seem to be assuming that human nature hasn't changed over the past couple of centuries.

DS - are you subjucated?


Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 10:57 AM
Education is the key to power.
Agreed. (I'd say the application of education....).



Human nature has not changed. The British people have. They got educated. I suspect thier first lesson (at least for the monarchy) was the American War of Independance.

There are plenty of countries around the world where the general populace are not educated. Check out the situations in those countries to prove my point. Maybe start somewhere like Somalia.

Quote:
 
Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 10:57 AM
Educating the masses helps prevent the power from becoming too concentrated.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.


:headscratch:

Was there a point to be made here? If there was you have been extremely unclear about it. You are wasting everyone's time with the cliches. If you have something to say you should say it, in a clear and concise fashion so we can respond. As it stands your statement is totally devoid of context and meaningless.
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RTW
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Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 01:40 PM
Human nature has not changed. The British people have. They got educated. I suspect thier first lesson (at least for the monarchy) was the American War of Independance.
The British people were not educated before that? :o


Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 01:40 PM
There are plenty of countries around the world where the general populace are not educated. Check out the situations in those countries to prove my point. Maybe start somewhere like Somalia.
Irrelevant.


Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 01:40 PM
Quote:
 
Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 10:57 AM
Educating the masses helps prevent the power from becoming too concentrated.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Was there a point to be made here? If there was you have been extremely unclear about it. You are wasting everyone's time with the cliches. If you have something to say you should say it, in a clear and concise fashion so we can respond. As it stands your statement is totally devoid of context and meaningless.
If they're beyond you just say so. There's really no shame in that.
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ds9074
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RTW
 
DS - are you subjucated?

No I am not subjucated because, thank God, my ancestors fought to ensure I would be born with liberty and freedom into a country which still (just about) subscribes to the notion of elected government.

The ability of that elected government to defend us from the abitary powers of any foreign state or private force and our ability to turn out a government which uses its powers abitarily and/or against the will of the electorate is the guarantee against subjucation.

RTW
 
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

True enough, in the context you can provide people with the opportunity to take their education as far as they are capable but you cant force them to learn.

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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
RTW
Apr 30 2008, 05:33 PM
Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 01:40 PM
Human nature has not changed. The British people have. They got educated. I suspect thier first lesson (at least for the monarchy) was the American War of Independance.
The British people were not educated before that? :o





Hmmm, maybe you need a better education.

Have you studied history?

Quote:
 
Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 01:40 PM
There are plenty of countries around the world where the general populace are not educated. Check out the situations in those countries to prove my point. Maybe start somewhere like Somalia.
Irrelevant.


Your declaration of irrelevancy does not make it so. Please give a reason why you think this is irrelevant.

Quote:
 
Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 01:40 PM
Quote:
 
Minuet
Apr 30 2008, 10:57 AM
Educating the masses helps prevent the power from becoming too concentrated.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Was there a point to be made here? If there was you have been extremely unclear about it. You are wasting everyone's time with the cliches. If you have something to say you should say it, in a clear and concise fashion so we can respond. As it stands your statement is totally devoid of context and meaningless.
If they're beyond you just say so. There's really no shame in that.


SSDD. I should have expected that. I don't know why I even bother engaging you in conversation. I totally forgot that you find insulting people much easier then giving intelligent responses.
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