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Student loans: The latest credit crisis
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Topic Started: Apr 29 2008, 11:53 AM (827 Views)
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Minuet
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Apr 30 2008, 10:20 AM
Post #31
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- Admiralbill_gomec
- Apr 30 2008, 11:15 AM
I wasn't the one who brought it up, Min, by the way...
And I never said that you did.
I specifically said "some people" because I have seen this term used a few times by various people in other threads as well. I merely wanted to point out that it is a misuse of the word.
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Apr 30 2008, 10:22 AM
Post #32
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UberAdmiral
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- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 10:19 AM
- Dandandat
- Apr 30 2008, 11:14 AM
- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 11:10 AM
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slaveryWhy do some people insist of misusing terms? Using the word slavery in this manner waters down the real meaning of the word. You are watering down the meaning the same way that "fascism" has been watered down. We should try to discuss the issue instead of engaging in hyperbole.
Minuet, what word would you then use to describe their sentiments? They believe they are working for the prosperity of others against their will. What would you call it then?
The price you pay to be in a civilized society. I wonder what society would be like if all social programs never existed. The USA would certainly be different - there is no use in pretending that social programs don't exist there. They do and they have had a huge impact in creating the society you have today.
Some see it differently.
Why must a federal government define whether something is "civilized?"
I'd rather have my community or my church run LOCAL social programs. I already donate to my church so that it can. Having some huge bureaucracy control things it has no direct contact with is just inefficient and does not get needed resources to where they would go best.
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Dandandat
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Apr 30 2008, 10:23 AM
Post #33
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Time to put something here
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- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 11:19 AM
- Dandandat
- Apr 30 2008, 11:14 AM
- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 11:10 AM
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slaveryWhy do some people insist of misusing terms? Using the word slavery in this manner waters down the real meaning of the word. You are watering down the meaning the same way that "fascism" has been watered down. We should try to discuss the issue instead of engaging in hyperbole.
Minuet, what word would you then use to describe their sentiments? They believe they are working for the prosperity of others against their will. What would you call it then?
The price you pay to be in a civilized society. I wonder what society would be like if all social programs never existed. The USA would certainly be different - there is no use in pretending that social programs don't exist there. They do and they have had a huge impact in creating the society you have today.
Slavery can be described as the price a group must pay to live in a civilized society.
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Minuet
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Apr 30 2008, 10:26 AM
Post #34
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- Dandandat
- Apr 30 2008, 11:23 AM
- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 11:19 AM
- Dandandat
- Apr 30 2008, 11:14 AM
- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 11:10 AM
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slaveryWhy do some people insist of misusing terms? Using the word slavery in this manner waters down the real meaning of the word. You are watering down the meaning the same way that "fascism" has been watered down. We should try to discuss the issue instead of engaging in hyperbole.
Minuet, what word would you then use to describe their sentiments? They believe they are working for the prosperity of others against their will. What would you call it then?
The price you pay to be in a civilized society. I wonder what society would be like if all social programs never existed. The USA would certainly be different - there is no use in pretending that social programs don't exist there. They do and they have had a huge impact in creating the society you have today.
Slavery can be described as the price a group must pay to live in a civilized society.
Funny, I didn't see that in the definition I linked to.
Which goes back to my initial point. You cannot just change the meaning of certain words without watering down thier real (and horrific) meanings.
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Minuet
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Apr 30 2008, 10:32 AM
Post #35
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- Admiralbill_gomec
- Apr 30 2008, 11:22 AM
- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 10:19 AM
- Dandandat
- Apr 30 2008, 11:14 AM
- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 11:10 AM
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slaveryWhy do some people insist of misusing terms? Using the word slavery in this manner waters down the real meaning of the word. You are watering down the meaning the same way that "fascism" has been watered down. We should try to discuss the issue instead of engaging in hyperbole.
Minuet, what word would you then use to describe their sentiments? They believe they are working for the prosperity of others against their will. What would you call it then?
The price you pay to be in a civilized society. I wonder what society would be like if all social programs never existed. The USA would certainly be different - there is no use in pretending that social programs don't exist there. They do and they have had a huge impact in creating the society you have today.
Some see it differently. Why must a federal government define whether something is "civilized?" I'd rather have my community or my church run LOCAL social programs. I already donate to my church so that it can. Having some huge bureaucracy control things it has no direct contact with is just inefficient and does not get needed resources to where they would go best.
Who said anything about the Federal government running things? I have said many times that such things are better run at the State level.
The problem with your solution is that it does not reach everyone. A Muslim, Jew or Hindu is not likely to show up at the local Catholic church to ask for help. People often feel more comfortable asking for help from a non partisan source.
Your community suggestion does cover this - most social programs here are run at the community level. The state - or even the federal government - is in the best position to fund the programs - but that doesn't mean they have to run them.
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Dandandat
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Apr 30 2008, 10:35 AM
Post #36
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Time to put something here
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- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 11:26 AM
- Dandandat
- Apr 30 2008, 11:23 AM
- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 11:19 AM
- Dandandat
- Apr 30 2008, 11:14 AM
- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 11:10 AM
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slaveryWhy do some people insist of misusing terms? Using the word slavery in this manner waters down the real meaning of the word. You are watering down the meaning the same way that "fascism" has been watered down. We should try to discuss the issue instead of engaging in hyperbole.
Minuet, what word would you then use to describe their sentiments? They believe they are working for the prosperity of others against their will. What would you call it then?
The price you pay to be in a civilized society. I wonder what society would be like if all social programs never existed. The USA would certainly be different - there is no use in pretending that social programs don't exist there. They do and they have had a huge impact in creating the society you have today.
Slavery can be described as the price a group must pay to live in a civilized society.
Funny, I didn't see that in the definition I linked to. Which goes back to my initial point. You cannot just change the meaning of certain words without watering down thier real (and horrific) meanings.
It's called critical thinking,
I did not say "The definition of slavery is the price a group must pay to live in a civilized society"
I said that slavery can be described as the price a group must pay to live in a civilized society.
For example bellow you will find me describing Slavery as the price a group must pay to live in a civilized society.
The Roman Empire was the height of civilization during its time; it expended its empire through concerning surrounding areas. The people indigence to those areas where allowed to live in the Roman Empire and paid for it through slavery.
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Minuet
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Apr 30 2008, 10:42 AM
Post #37
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- Dandandat
- Apr 30 2008, 11:35 AM
- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 11:26 AM
- Dandandat
- Apr 30 2008, 11:23 AM
- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 11:19 AM
- Dandandat
- Apr 30 2008, 11:14 AM
- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 11:10 AM
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slaveryWhy do some people insist of misusing terms? Using the word slavery in this manner waters down the real meaning of the word. You are watering down the meaning the same way that "fascism" has been watered down. We should try to discuss the issue instead of engaging in hyperbole.
Minuet, what word would you then use to describe their sentiments? They believe they are working for the prosperity of others against their will. What would you call it then?
The price you pay to be in a civilized society. I wonder what society would be like if all social programs never existed. The USA would certainly be different - there is no use in pretending that social programs don't exist there. They do and they have had a huge impact in creating the society you have today.
Slavery can be described as the price a group must pay to live in a civilized society.
Funny, I didn't see that in the definition I linked to. Which goes back to my initial point. You cannot just change the meaning of certain words without watering down thier real (and horrific) meanings.
It's called critical thinking, I did not say "The definition of slavery is the price a group must pay to live in a civilized society" I said that slavery can be described as the price a group must pay to live in a civilized society. For example bellow you will find me describing Slavery as the price a group must pay to live in a civilized society. The Roman Empire was the height of civilization during its time; it expended its empire through concerning surrounding areas. The people indigence to those areas where allowed to exist in the Roman Empire and paid for that through slavery.
In my opinion it is not critical thinking at all. It is a misuse of terminology.
And your example just waters down the horrific condition of slavery. The people were not "allowed to exist" and did not willingly pay for the privilege of being part of that society. They were conquered and forced to be slaves.
The majority of Americans are there by choice - not because they were conquered. (descendants of former slaves have stayed by choice) And they are free to leave if they don't want to pay the price of being a member of society. Slaves are not free to make the choice to leave.
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ds9074
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Apr 30 2008, 10:43 AM
Post #38
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Admiral
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- Admiralbill_gomec
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Jumping back to the student loan credit problem. Many of the people who took out loans to further their education completed degrees that did not guarantee a job. Getting a Masters in Ancient Celtic Literature using student loans is not optimal unless there were openings someone with these credentials. If it were up to me, I'd nix getting certain degrees using student loans, unless a market existed for that major. Or, you could major in that area if you were willing to foot the bill.
When is there ever a guarantee of a job, outside of specific employer backed training schemes?
I took a degree, Geography, with a wide range of job prospects and specifically with automatic qualification for a Masters course in Spacial Planning. There is currently a shortage of qualified professionals in that field in the UK.
So there I was working full time after graduation on a short contact in a junior planning post, ready to apply for the Masters course (I had the paperwork filled in) and then - I get hit by a chronic illness which took me out of work altogether for 6 months and means its a stretch now to work 20 hours a week.
If my loan was on a commerical or semi-commerical basis and I was having to make payments I would quite frankly be stuffed. Not to mention the risk that I might have found myself without medical insurance cover having just graduated and being in a low paying, short term contract job.
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Dandandat
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Apr 30 2008, 11:06 AM
Post #39
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Time to put something here
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- Minute
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In my opinion it is not critical thinking at all. It is a misuse of terminology.
Which terminology was misused in my description of Roman slavery?
- Quote:
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And your example just waters down the horrific condition of slavery. The people were not "allowed to exist" and did not willingly pay for the privilege of being part of that society. They were conquered and forced to be slaves.
What constitute horrific and why is it needed to be considered as it is not part of any of your definitions.
Truth of the matter is that many Roman slaves did not live in horrific conditions at all, many of them would have chosen to live the way they did then be cast out on their own and not be members of the Roman Empire.
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Minuet
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Apr 30 2008, 11:09 AM
Post #40
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- Dandandat
- Apr 30 2008, 12:06 PM
- Minute
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In my opinion it is not critical thinking at all. It is a misuse of terminology.
Which terminology was misused in my description of Roman slavery?
allowed and paid.
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Dandandat
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Apr 30 2008, 11:17 AM
Post #41
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Time to put something here
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- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 12:09 PM
- Dandandat
- Apr 30 2008, 12:06 PM
- Minute
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In my opinion it is not critical thinking at all. It is a misuse of terminology.
Which terminology was misused in my description of Roman slavery?
allowed and paid.
How so?
- Quote:
-
al·low (ə-lou') v., -lowed, -low·ing, -lows. v.tr. To let do or happen; permit: We allow smoking only in restricted areas. To permit the presence of: No pets are allowed inside. To permit to have: allow oneself a little treat. To make provision for; assign: The schedule allows time for a coffee break. To plan for in case of need: allow two inches in the fabric for shrinkage. To grant as a discount or in exchange: allowed me 20 dollars on my old typewriter. Chiefly Southern & Midland U.S. To admit; concede: I allowed he was right. To think; suppose: “We allow he's straight” (American Speech). To assert; declare: Mother allowed that we'd better come in for dinner. http://www.answers.com/allowed&r=67
Permit the presence of; The Romans permit the presence of the Slaves in the Roman Empire instead of killing them or runing them off their lands.
pay1 (pâ)
- Quote:
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v., paid (pâd), pay·ing, pays.
v.tr. To give money to in return for goods or services rendered: pay the cashier. To give (money) in exchange for goods or services: paid four dollars for a hamburger; paid an hourly wage. To discharge or settle (a debt or obligation): paying taxes; paid the bill.
To give recompense for; requite: a kindness that cannot be paid back. To give recompense to; reward or punish: I'll pay him back for his insults. To bear (a cost or penalty, for example) in recompense: She paid the price for her unpopular opinions. To yield as a return: a savings plan that paid six percent interest. To afford an advantage to; profit: It paid us to be generous. To give or bestow: paying compliments; paying attention. To make (a visit or call). Past tense and past participle paid or payed (pâd). To let out (a line or cable) by slackening.
To bear; The Slaves bore the life of a slave in exchange for life and a certain level of prosperity.
Nope I think I used those terms quite right.
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Minuet
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Apr 30 2008, 11:26 AM
Post #42
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Dandandat - if you are going to add to your posts you should use the "edited by" button. I replied to what I thought was your entire post (and quoted it) and now you have added a whole other section.
The definitions include such terms as "harsh conditions" . You are just being silly asking what the word "horrific" means.
And I don't buy your assertion that any of the Roman slaves would have chosen to be slaves. Ever hear of an historical figure by the name of Spartacus?
http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/slavesa...a/spartacus.htm
- Quote:
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Men Who Defied Rome The Gauls' tribal king Vercingetorix -- who was defeated by Caesar, Mithridates -- the king of Pontus, in Asia, Hannibal -- the Punic War general of the Carthaginians in northern Africa, who roundly defeated the Romans at Cannae, and Spartacus the gladiator were leaders who stood up to Rome, defiantly and with initial success, and who therefore won for themselves prominent places in the annals of Roman history of the Republican period.
Roman Generals Otherwise Engaged
In 74 B.C., Nicomedes IV King of Bithynia, in Asia, died, bequeathing his country to Rome. To take control of the inheritance, the two Roman consuls, Lucius Licinius Lucullus and M. Aurelius Cotta went to Asia. Mithridates, who had been a thorn in Rome's side for more than thirty years, was apprehensive about the growing Roman presence. He attacked Bithynia where Cotta was stationed, but the other consul, Lucullus, cut off Mithridates' supplies and achieved a major victory without battle. While Lucullus was maintaining Roman power in the East, there was only one competent military leader left in Rome, Crassus. There would have been two, but Pompey was in Spain.
The Slaves Revolt
Spartacus had been born in Thrace and received training in a Roman army, probably as an auxiliary, before becoming a slave. He was sold, in 73 B.C., into the service of Lentulus Batiates, a man who taught at a ludus for gladiators in Capua, twenty miles from Mt. Vesuvius in Campania. That same year Spartacus and two Gallic gladiators led a riot at the school. Of about two hundred gladiator slaves, less than eighty escaped, using kitchen tools as weapons.
In the streets they found wagons of gladiatorial weapons and confiscated them. When soldiers tried to stop the band of escaped slaves, the band used their accustomed gladiatorial weapons, easily defeating the soldiers. Then they took the better, military weapons of the beaten soldiers, and set out on their way south to Mt. Vesuvius. Along their route, they picked up rural slaves.
The Praetors Fail
Little realizing how well Spartacus had organized his band of slaves, the praetors made an inadequate attempt to end the revolt. Clodius besieged the Spartacans on a mountain, which had only one narrow path to the top. The rest of the mountain was steep and slippery.
As it turned out, the slippery surface didn't matter to Spartacus. Ample vines on the mountaintop provided suitable material for ropes, which they used to climb down and surprise the Romans. Instead of the Romans putting an end to the slave revolt, the slaves took the Roman camp.
Then the slaves headed towards the Alps, picking up a total of 70,000 slaves along the way. Spartacus intended for his men to disband and head to their pre-slave homes after a quick march to the Alps. He had shown remarkable skill in creating a force capable of defeating Roman legions, but he didn't have what he needed to be a great leader of his men. Many of his men preferred to pillage the countryside. Now the Senate in Rome had to take the slave revolt seriously.
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Minuet
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Apr 30 2008, 11:30 AM
Post #43
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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- Dandandat
- Apr 30 2008, 12:17 PM
- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 12:09 PM
- Dandandat
- Apr 30 2008, 12:06 PM
- Minute
-
In my opinion it is not critical thinking at all. It is a misuse of terminology.
Which terminology was misused in my description of Roman slavery?
allowed and paid.
How so? - Quote:
-
al·low (ə-lou') v., -lowed, -low·ing, -lows. v.tr. To let do or happen; permit: We allow smoking only in restricted areas. To permit the presence of: No pets are allowed inside. To permit to have: allow oneself a little treat. To make provision for; assign: The schedule allows time for a coffee break. To plan for in case of need: allow two inches in the fabric for shrinkage. To grant as a discount or in exchange: allowed me 20 dollars on my old typewriter. Chiefly Southern & Midland U.S. To admit; concede: I allowed he was right. To think; suppose: “We allow he's straight” (American Speech). To assert; declare: Mother allowed that we'd better come in for dinner. http://www.answers.com/allowed&r=67
Permit the presence of; The Romans permit the presence of the Slaves in the Roman Empire instead of killing them or runing them off their lands. pay1 (pâ) - Quote:
-
v., paid (pâd), pay·ing, pays.
v.tr. To give money to in return for goods or services rendered: pay the cashier. To give (money) in exchange for goods or services: paid four dollars for a hamburger; paid an hourly wage. To discharge or settle (a debt or obligation): paying taxes; paid the bill.
To give recompense for; requite: a kindness that cannot be paid back. To give recompense to; reward or punish: I'll pay him back for his insults. To bear (a cost or penalty, for example) in recompense: She paid the price for her unpopular opinions. To yield as a return: a savings plan that paid six percent interest. To afford an advantage to; profit: It paid us to be generous. To give or bestow: paying compliments; paying attention. To make (a visit or call). Past tense and past participle paid or payed (pâd). To let out (a line or cable) by slackening.
To bear; The Slaves bore the life of a slave in exchange for life and a certain level of prosperity. Nope I think I used those terms quite right.
The word "force" does not appear in your definition of "allowed". The slaves were not just "allowed" to live. They were forced into servitude.
And your definition of paid does not include the word "theft" If you are forced to give up all you have to another it is called "theft" not payment.
Dandandat - all you are doing is proving that I am correct about the meanings of words being watered down. I suggest you give it up now. :lol:
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Dandandat
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Apr 30 2008, 11:42 AM
Post #44
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Time to put something here
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- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 12:26 PM
Dandandat - if you are going to add to your posts you should use the "edited by" button. I replied to what I thought was your entire post (and quoted it) and now you have added a whole other section. The definitions include such terms as "harsh conditions" . You are just being silly asking what the word "horrific" means. And I don't buy your assertion that any of the Roman slaves would have chosen to be slaves. Ever hear of an historical figure by the name of Spartacus? http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/slavesa...a/spartacus.htm- Quote:
-
Men Who Defied Rome The Gauls' tribal king Vercingetorix -- who was defeated by Caesar, Mithridates -- the king of Pontus, in Asia, Hannibal -- the Punic War general of the Carthaginians in northern Africa, who roundly defeated the Romans at Cannae, and Spartacus the gladiator were leaders who stood up to Rome, defiantly and with initial success, and who therefore won for themselves prominent places in the annals of Roman history of the Republican period.
Roman Generals Otherwise Engaged
In 74 B.C., Nicomedes IV King of Bithynia, in Asia, died, bequeathing his country to Rome. To take control of the inheritance, the two Roman consuls, Lucius Licinius Lucullus and M. Aurelius Cotta went to Asia. Mithridates, who had been a thorn in Rome's side for more than thirty years, was apprehensive about the growing Roman presence. He attacked Bithynia where Cotta was stationed, but the other consul, Lucullus, cut off Mithridates' supplies and achieved a major victory without battle. While Lucullus was maintaining Roman power in the East, there was only one competent military leader left in Rome, Crassus. There would have been two, but Pompey was in Spain.
The Slaves Revolt
Spartacus had been born in Thrace and received training in a Roman army, probably as an auxiliary, before becoming a slave. He was sold, in 73 B.C., into the service of Lentulus Batiates, a man who taught at a ludus for gladiators in Capua, twenty miles from Mt. Vesuvius in Campania. That same year Spartacus and two Gallic gladiators led a riot at the school. Of about two hundred gladiator slaves, less than eighty escaped, using kitchen tools as weapons.
In the streets they found wagons of gladiatorial weapons and confiscated them. When soldiers tried to stop the band of escaped slaves, the band used their accustomed gladiatorial weapons, easily defeating the soldiers. Then they took the better, military weapons of the beaten soldiers, and set out on their way south to Mt. Vesuvius. Along their route, they picked up rural slaves.
The Praetors Fail
Little realizing how well Spartacus had organized his band of slaves, the praetors made an inadequate attempt to end the revolt. Clodius besieged the Spartacans on a mountain, which had only one narrow path to the top. The rest of the mountain was steep and slippery.
As it turned out, the slippery surface didn't matter to Spartacus. Ample vines on the mountaintop provided suitable material for ropes, which they used to climb down and surprise the Romans. Instead of the Romans putting an end to the slave revolt, the slaves took the Roman camp.
Then the slaves headed towards the Alps, picking up a total of 70,000 slaves along the way. Spartacus intended for his men to disband and head to their pre-slave homes after a quick march to the Alps. He had shown remarkable skill in creating a force capable of defeating Roman legions, but he didn't have what he needed to be a great leader of his men. Many of his men preferred to pillage the countryside. Now the Senate in Rome had to take the slave revolt seriously.
- Quote:
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Roman slaves were treated in a wide variety of manners, as would be expected, depending on the circumstances, the household and the time period. Obviously, life working in a mine as a Roman slave wouldn't be desired, by contrast to that of some house slaves. Some were so highly regarded that they were considered parts of families. Tombs and gravesites lend evidence to support the praise that some Romans felt towards their slaves. Some really worked what we might consider a regular shift and were free to come and as they pleased outside of that time. Others lived in the cruelest and harshest conditions, victim to the whims of society or the cruelty of their masters. In the late Republic, slaves were strictly seen as property by the vast majority, especially at a time when the availability of new 'property' was coming in at alarming numbers. Varro called them 'vocal agricultural implements' and likely would've preferred them without the vocal part. Cato the Elder, the great politician of 'Carthage must be destroyed' fame, once suggested that old and worn out slaves be sold, as a matter of economy. http://www.unrv.com/culture/roman-slavery.php
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Dandandat
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Apr 30 2008, 11:43 AM
Post #45
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Time to put something here
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- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 12:30 PM
- Dandandat
- Apr 30 2008, 12:17 PM
- Minuet
- Apr 30 2008, 12:09 PM
- Dandandat
- Apr 30 2008, 12:06 PM
- Minute
-
In my opinion it is not critical thinking at all. It is a misuse of terminology.
Which terminology was misused in my description of Roman slavery?
allowed and paid.
How so? - Quote:
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al·low (ə-lou') v., -lowed, -low·ing, -lows. v.tr. To let do or happen; permit: We allow smoking only in restricted areas. To permit the presence of: No pets are allowed inside. To permit to have: allow oneself a little treat. To make provision for; assign: The schedule allows time for a coffee break. To plan for in case of need: allow two inches in the fabric for shrinkage. To grant as a discount or in exchange: allowed me 20 dollars on my old typewriter. Chiefly Southern & Midland U.S. To admit; concede: I allowed he was right. To think; suppose: “We allow he's straight” (American Speech). To assert; declare: Mother allowed that we'd better come in for dinner. http://www.answers.com/allowed&r=67
Permit the presence of; The Romans permit the presence of the Slaves in the Roman Empire instead of killing them or runing them off their lands. pay1 (pâ) - Quote:
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v., paid (pâd), pay·ing, pays.
v.tr. To give money to in return for goods or services rendered: pay the cashier. To give (money) in exchange for goods or services: paid four dollars for a hamburger; paid an hourly wage. To discharge or settle (a debt or obligation): paying taxes; paid the bill.
To give recompense for; requite: a kindness that cannot be paid back. To give recompense to; reward or punish: I'll pay him back for his insults. To bear (a cost or penalty, for example) in recompense: She paid the price for her unpopular opinions. To yield as a return: a savings plan that paid six percent interest. To afford an advantage to; profit: It paid us to be generous. To give or bestow: paying compliments; paying attention. To make (a visit or call). Past tense and past participle paid or payed (pâd). To let out (a line or cable) by slackening.
To bear; The Slaves bore the life of a slave in exchange for life and a certain level of prosperity. Nope I think I used those terms quite right.
The word "force" does not appear in your definition of "allowed". The slaves were not just "allowed" to live. They were forced into servitude. And your definition of paid does not include the word "theft" If you are forced to give up all you have to another it is called "theft" not payment. Dandandat - all you are doing is proving that I am correct about the meanings of words being watered down. I suggest you give it up now. :lol:
Non sequitur,
being forced to work does not precluded being allowed to live. both can happen at the same time.
"to bear" includes being forced to endure hardship.
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