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Who or what is the middle class?
Topic Started: Apr 7 2008, 09:51 AM (558 Views)
Minuet
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It was a frustrating process, in a way, because I think that there were a lot of opportunities sent Ted's way," Wayne says. "And while you're with someone, and the closer you get to them, and the more that you kind of root for them and understand them, the more frustrating it gets when those opportunities are passed by. I think that it shows that, from a personal story, people that are homeless, there are certain demons inside them. … I think alcoholism plays a part of that. I learned that in providing somebody with the necessities to be able to turn their life around, a car, a telephone, a roof above their head, a driver's license, all the things that we hear is what somebody needs to be able to turn their life around, it still, unfortunately, in this particular case, was not enough.


This is from your link RTW. I think that where this messed up was that the money was given no strings attached. Maybe this is how welfare works in your country, but it doesn't here.

Surely you would agree that had the money been used to send Ted to rehab it might have been much more successful then simply handing him money and expecting his demons to go away. Some education would have helped as well. This example does not turn me off of the idea of welfare, it only reminds me that there is a smart way to go about things and a dumb way to go about things. This was the dumb way.

Thanks for trying, but this, along with a fuzzy statement about maybe hearing something on a radio show does not convince me that Oprah did anything that proves that a hand up does not work. If you want me to take you seriously you should really concentrate on more real life examples and less on the rhetoric of radio talk show hosts who tend to put thier own spin on stories. Simply put, Oprah is not the equivalent of a state government and her way of giving things out does not prove that properly done social projects don't work.
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STC
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ds9074
Apr 8 2008, 05:59 PM
Admiralbill_gomec
Apr 8 2008, 04:13 PM
This being said, what is middle class? Is it a pre-defined income, or is it a lifestyle?

While my wife and I are high income earners, we don't jetset off to exotic locations (okay, Mexico two years ago) or buy sports cars. By American standards, my house is modest. We like to go camping and rent movies. We live what I call a middle-class lifestyle. I don't need to compete with the neighbors, or keep up to a standard set by someone else. We max out our savings and retirement plans, and our house is paid for. I want to retire in under a decade if possible (or at least when the kids are out of college, which is about ten years away).


Let me tell you the story of a friend of mine. He's in a similar position (he's a project manager, like me, but he works directly for a company), but he's one of those conspicuous consumers. He and his wife have new cars (Ford Mustang GT and Acura SUV, respectively), and he gave his daughter his old Suburban (2002 or 2003) as her own car. His daughter has never had a job (can't interfere with her school work, or her tutors, or her classes, or other resume padders to get her into Rice) so he pays all her bills. They have jetskis and a lake house and their home is in one of the new upscale developments (the new part of Greatwood, for Jag). Rob is in debt up to his eyeballs. He's 50, and confided in me recently that he only has about 40,000 in his 401k retirement. He makes nearly a quarter mil a year, but has nearly zero savngs. He's praying his daughter gets a scholarship to Rice next year (fall '09). He's fortunate that his youngest daughter is only 11, so he won't have two kids in college at once. He also owns ten acres out in Fredericksburg, but hasn't built on it yet. That's paid for. I told him he should unload the lakehouse and the jetskis, as that house is a money pit. He spends every other week there from April to September... that's what, 26 days? Why doesn't he sell? He blames the housing market. So what. He has some equity in it. He'd get some bucks for the skis and he isn't stuck with a second house payment.

He's using as many deductions as he can, and he usually gets money back from the IRS, but that one "boost" usually drives another spending spree. Believe it or not, it is him, not his wife, driving this. Of course she does nothing to stop it.

Crazy, isn't it?

Yes I think it is crazy but people are constantly given the message that more consumption now will increase your happiness. Some people choose that immediate consumption over their long term financial stability. Maybe in the future its going to come back and bite them.

Admiralbill_gomec
 
1. Not in this country. Our public school system (what you'd call "private schools") are a disaster. The focus of schools is now on self-esteem and multiculturalism, not on education. Hell, most schools teach calculators instead of addition and subtraction. There's a reason I pay the equivalent of 10,000 pounds a year on my kids' education.

We'd actually call them state schools. Its a pitty if standards of teaching are low in the US state school system because that is going to help reinforce poverty and low skills.

Admiralbill_gomec
 
2. Why does it have to be tax money? What percentage of Britons goes to university? Higher education is not for everyone. I wish that companies here would offer apprenticeships again.

It needs to be tax money because the State is the only insitution willing to make this guarantee - if you are bright enough to qualify to go to a particular university we make sure you can afford to go.

In the UK about a third of people leaving school go into higher education.

Admiralbill_gomec
 
3. Not in this country. Public housing, by and large, means slums. These programs have been a disaster.

I'm not saying UK social housing has been a total success in all places but its a lot better than say a Victorian working class slum. I'd like to get a social house myself if I could as compared to renting privately you have more security of tenure and a lot of the stock, at least around here, is actually better.

Admiralbill_gomec
 
4. How is tax credits "public spending?" We call this "keeping your money."

In the UK you can get back more via a tax credit than your total tax bill, particularly if you have children and work or are disabled and work. What I get in tax credits is about 5 times what I pay out in tax.

Admiralbill_gomec
 
5. Was that you or Mikey who wrote last year about the wait you went through for medical treatment for (forgot the ailment) illness? Your wait times are outrageous.

My point is this - those wait times were worse 10 years ago and since then we have seen a lot of extra money spent and a big reduction in wait times. Extra public spending has made a difference. Though we still spend far less than the US on healthcare which is, I believe, a big reason for the difference in wait times between the NHS and those with good coverage in the US.

Just a couple of points on the stuff above.

2. I think the amount of people going into university education is over 40% now.

ABG, you'll find no argument over here about your point on more apprenticeships being needed, and too many people doing academic or often 'woolly' degrees. We're having exactly the same problems over here, lack of people being trained in practical skills & vocations.

5. The wait times have certainly been unacceptable and to some extent still are. But the issue is the amount of funding not the system. Truth is that UK healthcare has been underfunded and that has only started to be corrected in the last decade - that's why the wait times, among other problems, are issues.
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RTW
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Minuet
Apr 11 2008, 12:06 PM
If you want me to take you seriously...

:no:

*sigh* Some things never change.
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RTW
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Minuet
Apr 11 2008, 12:06 PM
Surely you would agree that had the money been used to send Ted to rehab...

Yes, the person who GAVE Ted the opportunity is at fault because he should have known that Ted, like all poor people, is just a helpless pawn with no ability to control his destiny. :rolleyes:

I do agree that people with destructive habits should NOT be given any handouts. Let them self-fund their addictons.

Unwanted help is never effective. The problem is, most people don't want help - they want handouts.
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STC
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RTW
Apr 12 2008, 03:45 AM
Minuet
Apr 11 2008, 12:06 PM
Surely you would agree that had the money been used to send Ted to rehab...

Yes, the person who GAVE Ted the opportunity is at fault because he should have known that Ted, like all poor people, is just a helpless pawn with no ability to control his destiny. :rolleyes:

I do agree that people with destructive habits should NOT be given any handouts. Let them self-fund their addictons.

Unwanted help is never effective. The problem is, most people don't want help - they want handouts.

I don't know much about Ted other than what I've read here. Believe it or not, Oprah isn't very important here (UK) ;)

But, bluntly, I would not recommend giving an alcoholic loads of money or material things. Alcoholism is a mental health problem and needs to be treated as such. Giving people 'things' or 'money' will not even begin to address that problem. The alcoholism, and also any underlying issues, are what need to be addressed.

If Oprah treated this with money then its bad practice. It won't work.

Lots of other reasons why this wouldn't work either. Public scrutiny/pressure may be one.
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Minuet
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RTW
Apr 11 2008, 10:40 PM
Minuet
Apr 11 2008, 12:06 PM
If you want me to take you seriously...

:no:

*sigh* Some things never change.

Yes, some things never change.

Try reading everything I wrote in context instead of taking out a few words and taking insult from them.

The thing that really bugs me is that you make blanket comments all the time that are insulting to others, but expect that we should not take offence. If you don't want to really discuss the issues then don't drop in with your blanket insults of "the left" all the time.
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Minuet
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RTW
Apr 11 2008, 10:45 PM
Minuet
Apr 11 2008, 12:06 PM
Surely you would agree that had the money been used to send Ted to rehab...

Yes, the person who GAVE Ted the opportunity is at fault because he should have known that Ted, like all poor people, is just a helpless pawn with no ability to control his destiny. :rolleyes:

I do agree that people with destructive habits should NOT be given any handouts. Let them self-fund their addictons.

Unwanted help is never effective. The problem is, most people don't want help - they want handouts.

And talking about making insulting comments please don't put words into my mouth.

I never said anything about anyone being a " helpless pawn with no ability to control his destiny".

I also never said that "people with destructive habits should NOT be given any handouts. Let them self-fund their addictons. " so I am dumbfounded that you are agreeing with a statement I never made.

Please put your reading glasses on next time. Then you might be able to comprehend what I actually said. What I actually said is that the money should be used wisely and that in this case it would have been better spent had it been specifically geared towards certain goals rather then just handing out the money no strings attached.
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Sgt. Jaggs
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How about a Voyager Movie
Admiralbill_gomec
Apr 8 2008, 11:13 AM
This being said, what is middle class? Is it a pre-defined income, or is it a lifestyle?

While my wife and I are high income earners, we don't jetset off to exotic locations (okay, Mexico two years ago) or buy sports cars. By American standards, my house is modest. We like to go camping and rent movies. We live what I call a middle-class lifestyle. I don't need to compete with the neighbors, or keep up to a standard set by someone else. We max out our savings and retirement plans, and our house is paid for. I want to retire in under a decade if possible (or at least when the kids are out of college, which is about ten years away).


Let me tell you the story of a friend of mine. He's in a similar position (he's a project manager, like me, but he works directly for a company), but he's one of those conspicuous consumers. He and his wife have new cars (Ford Mustang GT and Acura SUV, respectively), and he gave his daughter his old Suburban (2002 or 2003) as her own car. His daughter has never had a job (can't interfere with her school work, or her tutors, or her classes, or other resume padders to get her into Rice) so he pays all her bills. They have jetskis and a lake house and their home is in one of the new upscale developments (the new part of Greatwood, for Jag). Rob is in debt up to his eyeballs. He's 50, and confided in me recently that he only has about 40,000 in his 401k retirement. He makes nearly a quarter mil a year, but has nearly zero savngs. He's praying his daughter gets a scholarship to Rice next year (fall '09). He's fortunate that his youngest daughter is only 11, so he won't have two kids in college at once. He also owns ten acres out in Fredericksburg, but hasn't built on it yet. That's paid for. I told him he should unload the lakehouse and the jetskis, as that house is a money pit. He spends every other week there from April to September... that's what, 26 days? Why doesn't he sell? He blames the housing market. So what. He has some equity in it. He'd get some bucks for the skis and he isn't stuck with a second house payment.

He's using as many deductions as he can, and he usually gets money back from the IRS, but that one "boost" usually drives another spending spree. Believe it or not, it is him, not his wife, driving this. Of course she does nothing to stop it.

Crazy, isn't it?

:D Yeah I know Greatwood. The Academy and HEB across 59 from there is where we shopped.
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Sgt. Jaggs
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How about a Voyager Movie
RTW
Apr 11 2008, 01:36 PM
I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with seed. What a beauty of a bird feeder it was. Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the continuous flow of free and easily accessible food.

Then the birds started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table, and next to the barbecue.

Then came the poop. It was everywhere: on the patio tile, the chairs, the table ... everywhere!

Then some of the birds turned mean. They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own pocket.

And others birds were boisterous and loud. They sat on the feeder and squawked and screamed at all hours of the day and night and demanded that I fill it when it got low on food. They fought over nesting spots closest to the feeder.

Birds seemed to be coming from everywhere. What started out as just a handful of song birds in my backyard turned into hundreds of birds of all types. Not all the birds got along. Some of the larger birds tried to prey on the nests/babies of the others. Others would just knock the eggs out and take over the nests.

After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore. So I took down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone. I cleaned up their mess and took down the many nests they had built all over the patio.

Soon, the back yard was like it used to be.... quiet, serene. No demands for food. No more endless territorial disputes around where the feeder used to be. All the birds are doing fine fending for themselves.

Rtw for the love of life tell me you jusst cut and pasted the chicken Bleep squeeze from somewheres else. :huh:

Honestly those birds all fit your agenda and made it into your post too?
You observed that and WOW.
:P :lol:
Thats a jacked up post and trust me I have SisterStreet cred on jacked up posts.

I disagree with this crap:

Within a week we had hundreds of birds

You obviously have no proof of this so your opinion is not factually based and I cannot roll with that shit! :rotfl:
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RTW
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Dude! You count 'em (link)!!!

It was so bad that they're actually making a movie about my ordeal! Here's a link.

I'm still having nightmares!
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Sgt. Jaggs
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How about a Voyager Movie
Still LOLing :lol: :lol:

I think I'll go listen to Cool and the Gang Celebrate good times!! :lol: :clap: :rotfl: :loling: :loling:
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