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I'll tell you why you don't like Hillary; Mystery Solved
Topic Started: Apr 3 2008, 07:33 PM (499 Views)
24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Minuet
Apr 4 2008, 10:26 AM
24thcenstfan
Apr 4 2008, 09:58 AM
I’m not a Democrat, but USH hit on several concerns that I have about Hillary Clinton.  I have yet to decide if she should get my vote in November.  Or McCain or Obama.  Its up in the air right now.

Also, for anyone expressing irrational fear about Obama based on his Muslim family heritage, I’m going to recommend a visit to Barack Obama’s website.  Obama's position on Israel.

His position on the Middle East in general seems to be one of toughness, but fairness.

I expressed concern, not "irrational fear". They are not the same thing.

Since you were basing your opinion on Obama’s heritage and not his actual foreign policy positions, I would say your concerns are irrational. There is also an element of fear contained within concern.

Quote:
 
Please watch the inflammatory comments.

Nothing inflammatory about those comments. I think you are just annoyed that I hit the nail on the head. So why don’t you go backseat moderate someone else.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
That is quite a hypocritical stance from someone who once said that they didn't want to vote for Joe Lieberman because they were "concerned" that he would not be available to do business on the Sabbath because he is Jewish.

Were you being "irrational" at the time? What did you fear?
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet
Apr 5 2008, 12:22 AM
somerled
Apr 4 2008, 09:17 AM
Minuet
Apr 4 2008, 11:10 PM
Franko
 
He's already committed himself to be a unifying leader, and I trust him more in foriegn affairs than I do Hillary.


This is one area where I find myself disagreeing with you Franko. I don't trust him more. Maybe it is because I have a "vested interest" in what happens in the middle east. Obama is a Christian but he comes from a Muslim heritage and has many Muslim relatives.

I and a lot of other Jews are actually quite concerned about a shift in mideast policy with an Obama presidency.

The Clintons have always been strong supporters of Israel.

.... where has he admiitted or stated directly or otherwize he is a muslim , or of muslim heritage, or is any less pro-Israel than any other prior or possible president of the USA ? I read somewhere that his father was Kenyan and was raised as Muslim, but becme an atheist by the time Obama's parents met, and his Indonesian stepfather as not tied to any religion either. And being a parishioner of a christian church (with a outspoken priest) is not an indication that he is anti-Israel either.

Basing your opinion of him on his name is pretty petty and paranoid.

A shift in mid east policy by the USA would actually be a positive thing for global security , what the USA has been doing lately has not worked or been constructive.

Somerled, if you continue to twist my words and lie about what I say I will be reporting you to the moderators. You have claimed here that I made statements I did not say.

That is baiting and you are already on thin ice with the moderators for this. Either take the time to read my thoughts carefully and respond to what I actually did say or please get the hell out of my way and don't respond to me at all. I have no desire to fight with you or anyone else.

I don't appreciate being threatened ....

I think it is irrational to fear someone becoming president of the USA because he may have some muslim friends and has some muslim relatives. What has he said or done that has made these jewish associates of your's fearful of his appintment ? Why are you even listening to them ?





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RTW
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STC
Apr 4 2008, 06:24 AM
But, just a general thought. A U.S. President with the background you ascribe to Obama might just be what is needed - someone who can empathise with both sides and act as a 'bridge' between the two might be in a better position to help negotiate a lasting peace.

Sorry, but ...

:no:

Call me cynical, but peace in the Middle East will not come without total annihilation of one side or the other - and even then it's only 50/50 depending on which side was annihilated.
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24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Minuet
Apr 4 2008, 11:29 AM
That is quite a hypocritical stance from someone who once said that they didn't want to vote for Joe Lieberman because they were "concerned" that he would not be available to do business on the Sabbath because he is Jewish.

Were you being "irrational" at the time? What did you fear?

Wrong.

I expressed a concern over Lieberman being able to fulfill duties associated with a 24/7 on call job such as the President would have when his Orthodox views require that he not work on the Sabbath. My comments/postion was basically “what would he do in such a situation?” My position was also slightly misinformed. Not irrational.

I had no problem with Lieberman being Jewish. I was prepared to vote for him. Any "fear" that came from my concern was whether or not he could adequately fullfill his duties as President of the United States.

You on the other hand appear to be concerned based on the fact that Obama has Muslims in his family line. Based on that alone, I think the position is irrational.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
RTW
Apr 5 2008, 01:43 AM
STC
Apr 4 2008, 06:24 AM
But, just a general thought. A U.S. President with the background you ascribe to Obama might just be what is needed - someone who can empathise with both sides and act as a 'bridge' between the two might be in a better position to help negotiate a lasting peace.

Sorry, but ...

:no:

Call me cynical, but peace in the Middle East will not come without total annihilation of one side or the other - and even then it's only 50/50 depending on which side was annihilated.

I disagree and hope that very few of your countrymen think like you do.

The cycle of bloodshed and revenge attacks by both sides has to stop , and the stalliing too.



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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Quote:
 
I don't appreciate being threatened ....


That wasn't a threat. It was a reminder. I won't take your nonsense. Speak to what I actually said or don't respond.

Quote:
 
I think it is irrational to fear someone becoming president of the USA because he may have some muslim friends and has some muslim relatives. What has he said or done that has made these jewish associates of your's fearful of his appintment ? Why are you even listening to them ?


Well then it's a good thing none of them expressed "fear" to me. :news:
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Minuet
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24thcenstfan
Apr 4 2008, 11:49 AM
Minuet
Apr 4 2008, 11:29 AM
That is quite a hypocritical stance from someone who once said that they didn't want to vote for Joe Lieberman because they were "concerned" that he would not be available to do business on the Sabbath because he is Jewish.

Were you being "irrational" at the time? What did you fear?

Wrong.

I expressed a concern over Lieberman being able to fulfill duties associated with a 24/7 on call job such as the President would have when his Orthodox views require that he not work on the Sabbath. My comments/postion was basically “what would he do in such a situation?” My position was also slightly misinformed. Not irrational.

I had no problem with Lieberman being Jewish. I was prepared to vote for him. Any "fear" that came from my concern was whether or not he could adequately fullfill his duties as President of the United States.

You on the other hand appear to be concerned based on the fact that Obama has Muslims in his family line. Based on that alone, I think the position is irrational.

So when you express a concern it is "misinformed" but when others do the same they are irrational.

Not hypocritical at all...... :rolleyes:
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet
Apr 5 2008, 02:01 AM
Quote:
 
I don't appreciate being threatened ....


That wasn't a threat. It was a reminder. I won't take your nonsense. Speak to what I actually said or don't respond.

Quote:
 
I think it is irrational to fear someone becoming president of the USA because he may have some muslim friends and has some muslim relatives. What has he said or done that has made these jewish associates of your's fearful of his appintment ? Why are you even listening to them ?


Well then it's a good thing none of them expressed "fear" to me. :news:

Seems very much based on an unsubstantiated and irrational fear based on heresay to me.

I've nothing more to add in this thread on the matter of Obama and Israel , I suggest maybe if this is important it should be split off to avoid further tangenting this thread.

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24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Minuet
Apr 4 2008, 12:03 PM
24thcenstfan
Apr 4 2008, 11:49 AM
Minuet
Apr 4 2008, 11:29 AM
That is quite a hypocritical stance from someone who once said that they didn't want to vote for Joe Lieberman because they were "concerned" that he would not be available to do business on the Sabbath because he is Jewish.

Were you being "irrational" at the time? What did you fear?

Wrong.

I expressed a concern over Lieberman being able to fulfill duties associated with a 24/7 on call job such as the President would have when his Orthodox views require that he not work on the Sabbath. My comments/postion was basically “what would he do in such a situation?” My position was also slightly misinformed. Not irrational.

I had no problem with Lieberman being Jewish. I was prepared to vote for him. Any "fear" that came from my concern was whether or not he could adequately fullfill his duties as President of the United States.

You on the other hand appear to be concerned based on the fact that Obama has Muslims in his family line. Based on that alone, I think the position is irrational.

So when you express a concern it is "misinformed" but when others do the same they are irrational.

Not hypocritical at all...... :rolleyes:

No its not, because as usual you are mischaracterizing the situation.

If you can’t see the difference with the two situations, then you really do need to look within.

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Minuet
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RTW
Apr 4 2008, 11:43 AM
STC
Apr 4 2008, 06:24 AM
But, just a general thought. A U.S. President with the background you ascribe to Obama might just be what is needed - someone who can empathise with both sides and act as a 'bridge' between the two might be in a better position to help negotiate a lasting peace.

Sorry, but ...

:no:

Call me cynical, but peace in the Middle East will not come without total annihilation of one side or the other - and even then it's only 50/50 depending on which side was annihilated.

I sure hope you are wrong RTW.

I try not to be cynical. STC has given a point of view that should at least be considered.

It is so hard to predict things sometimes. I see the links that 24thcenstfan provided and they tell one side of the story, but then I see the man stand by a preacher who made some very controversial statements.

On this one topic I at least know what Hillary would do. I know the track record from her husband. Even if she sometimes seems like she is a bit flaky (like the recent comments about being under fire) I know she would be using advisors, including her husband, who would keep her on a track that is friendly to Israel.

Of course I am not an American and I know the issues run a lot deeper then just this one. You have to consider a lot more when picking your president. I am just giving my own point of view on the one topic that affects me - foreign affairs.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
24thcenstfan
Apr 4 2008, 12:13 PM
Minuet
Apr 4 2008, 12:03 PM
24thcenstfan
Apr 4 2008, 11:49 AM
Minuet
Apr 4 2008, 11:29 AM
That is quite a hypocritical stance from someone who once said that they didn't want to vote for Joe Lieberman because they were "concerned" that he would not be available to do business on the Sabbath because he is Jewish.

Were you being "irrational" at the time? What did you fear?

Wrong.

I expressed a concern over Lieberman being able to fulfill duties associated with a 24/7 on call job such as the President would have when his Orthodox views require that he not work on the Sabbath. My comments/postion was basically “what would he do in such a situation?” My position was also slightly misinformed. Not irrational.

I had no problem with Lieberman being Jewish. I was prepared to vote for him. Any "fear" that came from my concern was whether or not he could adequately fullfill his duties as President of the United States.

You on the other hand appear to be concerned based on the fact that Obama has Muslims in his family line. Based on that alone, I think the position is irrational.

So when you express a concern it is "misinformed" but when others do the same they are irrational.

Not hypocritical at all...... :rolleyes:

No its not, because as usual you are mischaracterizing the situation.

If you can’t see the difference with the two situations, then you really do need to look within.

:news:

Physician heal thyself.

Gee it would be nice to have a conversation on this board where someone doesn't start insulting others on a personal level.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
somerled
Apr 4 2008, 12:08 PM
Minuet
Apr 5 2008, 02:01 AM
Quote:
 
I don't appreciate being threatened ....


That wasn't a threat. It was a reminder. I won't take your nonsense. Speak to what I actually said or don't respond.

Quote:
 
I think it is irrational to fear someone becoming president of the USA because he may have some muslim friends and has some muslim relatives. What has he said or done that has made these jewish associates of your's fearful of his appintment ? Why are you even listening to them ?


Well then it's a good thing none of them expressed "fear" to me. :news:

Seems very much based on an unsubstantiated and irrational fear based on heresay to me.

I've nothing more to add in this thread on the matter of Obama and Israel , I suggest maybe if this is important it should be split off to avoid further tangenting this thread.

My comments have been quite on topic and I do not want to see them split off.
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Hoss
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Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
Minuet
Apr 4 2008, 09:22 AM
somerled
Apr 4 2008, 09:17 AM
Minuet
Apr 4 2008, 11:10 PM
Franko
 
He's already committed himself to be a unifying leader, and I trust him more in foriegn affairs than I do Hillary.


This is one area where I find myself disagreeing with you Franko. I don't trust him more. Maybe it is because I have a "vested interest" in what happens in the middle east. Obama is a Christian but he comes from a Muslim heritage and has many Muslim relatives.

I and a lot of other Jews are actually quite concerned about a shift in mideast policy with an Obama presidency.

The Clintons have always been strong supporters of Israel.

.... where has he admiitted or stated directly or otherwize he is a muslim , or of muslim heritage, or is any less pro-Israel than any other prior or possible president of the USA ? I read somewhere that his father was Kenyan and was raised as Muslim, but becme an atheist by the time Obama's parents met, and his Indonesian stepfather as not tied to any religion either. And being a parishioner of a christian church (with a outspoken priest) is not an indication that he is anti-Israel either.

Basing your opinion of him on his name is pretty petty and paranoid.

A shift in mid east policy by the USA would actually be a positive thing for global security , what the USA has been doing lately has not worked or been constructive.

Somerled, if you continue to twist my words and lie about what I say I will be reporting you to the moderators. You have claimed here that I made statements I did not say.

That is baiting and you are already on thin ice with the moderators for this. Either take the time to read my thoughts carefully and respond to what I actually did say or please get the hell out of my way and don't respond to me at all. I have no desire to fight with you or anyone else.

Moderator
So, in this I see somerled questioning your assumptions about Obama and his heritage, which I consider to be legitamite.

Then he falsly accused you of basing your opinon on his name and accused you of being paranoid, which was wrong and showed poor reading comprehension.

Why don't y'all just drop this now?

This is obviously a sensitive subject all the way around which is why I try to avoid discussing it with just anyone.
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Hoss
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Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
[A] I don't think that the comments have been off-topic.

I think that characterizing someone's opinions as irrational is sure to start some trouble.

[c] Minuet, I think that you should have more carefully explained what you were saying in your first post as it seemed that it was sure to evoke such reactions.
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