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How politics drives how we live
Topic Started: Mar 13 2008, 10:20 AM (980 Views)
Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
ImpulseEngine
Mar 14 2008, 08:37 AM
However, we see time and time again how government fails us and big business gets greedy and cuts corners.

Not coming in here to chat or even post anything on a regular basis. I just want to make this one point...

It's specious to claim these things about government or big business without recognizing that this isn't something inherent to either, but inherent to the human condition. Greed and failure are endemic to humanity, thus any endeavor organized and carried out by humans could suffer the same, because we carry our failings with us where ever we go. Government fails its citizens no more often than a parent fails its children. Big-business is no more greedy than the mom who serves that milk that's a few days over its expiration.

As an individual in a non-political sense, it is these claims, often espoused by those left of center, that ultimately turns me off to much of the ideology of the left.
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HistoryDude
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Shaken, not stirred...
Quote:
 
As an individual in a non-political sense, it is these claims, often espoused by those left of center, that ultimately turns me off to much of the ideology of the left.


I'm from the political right and espouse the same rhetoric, because government has failed us.

When a mother serves milk to her children that's a few days over the expiration, that is because she knows that is the selling date and it is not harmful to her children - not because she is greedy. If the milk stinks and is curdled, she does not serve it to her children.

When I fail my kids, it is an honest mistake, because I am not perfect. Then I try to make it right with them.

Those analogies are silly.

I do agree with your point to some extent. Unfortunately, government is a necessary evil. The more of it there is, the more evil it is. The larger it is, the more it will fail because of greed and human imperfection. Ours today is a behemoth and trying to grow even bigger. It is scary. And these problems are increasing exponentially.

I'm not one to live in the past nor groan about how "it use to be better," nor even compare today to then. But I've been watching a documentary series on the Revolution for fun and am reminded again of the men who risked their lives and property for a better cause and a man who lead its Army for no pay and served as the new nation's president for only 8 years when he could have been dictator for life.

Where are these men for our government today? :(
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
HistoryDude
Mar 19 2008, 02:11 PM
Those analogies are silly.

I do agree with your point to some extent.

:headscratch: Oh gee, thanks. I'm reminded of that saying, "With friends like these..."

HistoryDude
Mar 19 2008, 02:11 PM
Unfortunately, government is a necessary evil.  The more of it there is, the more evil it is.  The larger it is, the more it will fail because of greed and human imperfection.  Ours today is a behemoth and trying to grow even bigger.  It is scary.  And these problems are increasing exponentially.

Oh yes, the typical rightist position. Please spare me; your argument is no more founded in logic than those of the left wanting bigger government.

Government is not evil, it's the people in it who are evil, so don't give me that scary boogie man, big government is evil rhetoric.

In fact, I want a bigger government ... at least in territory ... I want one that spans planets. I want to shed of America and just be the United States.

HistoryDude
Mar 19 2008, 02:11 PM
I'm not one to live in the past nor groan about how "it use to be better," nor even compare today to then.  But I've been watching a documentary series on the Revolution for fun and am reminded again of the men who risked their lives and property for a better cause and a man who lead its Army for no pay and served as the new nation's president for only 8 years when he could have been dictator for life.

Where are these men for our government today? :(

Sitting right here, and there, and over there, and even sitting in front of your monitor.

Take responsibility.
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ds9074
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Admiral
Dwayne
 
Government is not evil, it's the people in it who are evil, so don't give me that scary boogie man, big government is evil rhetoric.

Thats rubbish. Like any organisation you get the good and the bad but the vast, overwealming majority of people within government could hardly be described as 'evil'. Some are less competent that others I would grant you but that does not make them evil.

I agree with HistoryDude when he talks about government and says;
Quote:
 
The larger it is, the more it will fail because of greed and human imperfection.


The larger the government becomes as a single organisation the more unaccountable, remote and uncontrollable it becomes. It becomes so big that no single person can control and direct the organisation and it looses coherence. Parts of the organisation dont know what other parts are doing and persue contradictory aims. The whole system becomes out of touch with the people its supposed to work for.

This is why, though I am not in favour of a radically smaller public sector, I am in favour of a radically smaller central government. Power should be devolved down through the system as far as possible.

It certainly shouldnt be going upwards to the superstate likes of the European Union or an enlarged United States IMO.
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HistoryDude
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Shaken, not stirred...
Dwayne
Mar 19 2008, 10:02 PM
HistoryDude
Mar 19 2008, 02:11 PM
Those analogies are silly.

I do agree with your point to some extent.

:headscratch: Oh gee, thanks. I'm reminded of that saying, "With friends like these..."



Okay... :shrug: My apologies. That's just me showing that I can agree with some points and disagree with others and listen to what you have to say. I call it an open mind. If you want people to just line up behind you without voice, I'm afraid you're at the wrong place.

And along those lines, I don't plan to spare you anything.

You're right that some people are greedy and some let power corrupt them and that can make government evil. But it goes way beyond that, as DS followed-up with above. The government has become a whale. It is wasteful and corrupt...and it is still growing, only exacerbating the situation and creating an atmosphere of more waste and corruption.

I'm not saying we should not advance and evolve with the times, because even men like Jefferson noted that that would be prudent; but at the same time, the founding fathers knew that the bigger the government, the more restrictions there'd be on personal liberty, and I think that that general warning should be heeded today. So they created a limited government, knowing that it was a necessary evil, and I think they were right and right to do so.
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
HistoryDude
Mar 20 2008, 09:14 AM
Dwayne
Mar 19 2008, 10:02 PM
HistoryDude
Mar 19 2008, 02:11 PM
Those analogies are silly.

I do agree with your point to some extent.

:headscratch: Oh gee, thanks. I'm reminded of that saying, "With friends like these..."



Okay... :shrug: My apologies. That's just me showing that I can agree with some points and disagree with others and listen to what you have to say. I call it an open mind. If you want people to just line up behind you without voice, I'm afraid you're at the wrong place.

In my book, it's called respect.

You don't have to agree with my observations in order to respect my opinion. Summarily declaring my analogies silly without attempting a dialog with me in order to possibly see if maybe you misunderstood the point of my analogies, doesn't make one open minded; in fact, it's just the opposite.

I was extemporaneously replying to your post trying to explain my analogies, but once I got to your declaration about the silliness of my analogies, I thought to myself, "What the frak, why should I even try to explain?"

So, I stopped there, deleted all I had written to that point, and started over from that point. I figure if you aren't going to respect me enough to actually dialog with me in order to understand, then why should I bother?

Life is way too short...

HistoryDude
Mar 20 2008, 09:14 AM
And along those lines, I don't plan to spare you anything.

You're right that some people are greedy and some let power corrupt them and that can make government evil.  But it goes way beyond that, as DS followed-up with above.  The government has become a whale.  It is wasteful and corrupt...and it is still growing, only exacerbating the situation and creating an atmosphere of more waste and corruption.

I'm not saying we should not advance and evolve with the times, because even men like Jefferson noted that that would be prudent; but at the same time, the founding fathers knew that the bigger the government, the more restrictions there'd be on personal liberty, and I think that that general warning should be heeded today.  So they created a limited government, knowing that it was a necessary evil, and I think they were right and right to do so.

Limited government does not necessarily mean smaller government, but with that said, you're still trying to assign an organic quality to government that amounts to personification. Government does not become a whale; it's the people in government or those who vote for those people in government, who are the greedy pigs wastefully expanding the size of government. Government cannot expand its size on its own. And for what I think are very obvious reasons, there is no creature called Government waiting to be slayed by some crusading rightwinger, nor is there some other scary creature called Big-business requiring leftwingers to slay it.

I want limited government as much as any self avowed rightwinger, but that desire for limits on government doesn't mean that government must necessarily be smaller to realize its limits.
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
Dwayne
Mar 19 2008, 02:41 PM
ImpulseEngine
Mar 14 2008, 08:37 AM
However, we see time and time again how government fails us and big business gets greedy and cuts corners.

Not coming in here to chat or even post anything on a regular basis. I just want to make this one point...

It's specious to claim these things about government or big business without recognizing that this isn't something inherent to either, but inherent to the human condition. Greed and failure are endemic to humanity, thus any endeavor organized and carried out by humans could suffer the same, because we carry our failings with us where ever we go. Government fails its citizens no more often than a parent fails its children. Big-business is no more greedy than the mom who serves that milk that's a few days over its expiration.

As an individual in a non-political sense, it is these claims, often espoused by those left of center, that ultimately turns me off to much of the ideology of the left.

Here's the whole context of what I said:

Quote:
 
The other main point in the article was about nuclear power. I'm not opposed to nuclear power in theory. However, we see time and time again how government fails us and big business gets greedy and cuts corners. So who can we trust to run these and make sure they remain safe? Nuclear power isn't any good if no one is around to use it. Still, I recognize that we may have to take the risk because I don't see any better alternatives on the horizon.


Nothing you said contradicts the point I was raising. So then what is your point in bringing this up? As far as I can tell, you brought it up just to point out one more issue you have with the "ideology of the left". And yet, the issue you're discussing is common to both the left and right so I don't see your point at all. In fact, if anything, the right emphasizes government failings more than the left since typically the right wants less government and the left wants more.
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HistoryDude
Member Avatar
Shaken, not stirred...
Dwayne
Mar 20 2008, 10:29 AM
HistoryDude
Mar 20 2008, 09:14 AM
Dwayne
Mar 19 2008, 10:02 PM
HistoryDude
Mar 19 2008, 02:11 PM
Those analogies are silly.

I do agree with your point to some extent.

:headscratch: Oh gee, thanks. I'm reminded of that saying, "With friends like these..."



Okay... :shrug: My apologies. That's just me showing that I can agree with some points and disagree with others and listen to what you have to say. I call it an open mind. If you want people to just line up behind you without voice, I'm afraid you're at the wrong place.

In my book, it's called respect.

You don't have to agree with my observations in order to respect my opinion. Summarily declaring my analogies silly without attempting a dialog with me in order to possibly see if maybe you misunderstood the point of my analogies, doesn't make one open minded; in fact, it's just the opposite.

I was extemporaneously replying to your post trying to explain my analogies, but once I got to your declaration about the silliness of my analogies, I thought to myself, "What the frak, why should I even try to explain?"

So, I stopped there, deleted all I had written to that point, and started over from that point. I figure if you aren't going to respect me enough to actually dialog with me in order to understand, then why should I bother?

Life is way too short...

I hardly see the word "silly" as disrespectful or threatening. And I did dialog with you by explaining my thoughts about the analogies.

But I can understand your point and will refrain from using the word in future dialog with you.

Quote:
 
Limited government does not necessarily mean smaller government, but with that said, you're still trying to assign an organic quality to government that amounts to personification.  Government does not become a whale; it's the people in government or those who vote for those people in government, who are the greedy pigs wastefully expanding the size of government.  Government cannot expand its size on its own.  And for what I think are very obvious reasons, there is no creature called Government waiting to be slayed by some crusading rightwinger, nor is there some other scary creature called Big-business requiring leftwingers to slay it.

I want limited government as much as any self avowed rightwinger, but that desire for limits on government doesn't mean that government must necessarily be smaller to realize its limits.


Of course limited government means smaller government. Saying that it doesn't makes no sense to me. With limited duties come fewer elected officials, fewer public servants, smaller budgets, and fewer laws and regulations.

And, yes, there is a big government. You're right, that it was created by people originally. Hence again, why I see part of your point. However, it has taken on life of its own, now, to the point that it is so cumbersome and inefficient that to change it and limit from within is probably impossible. It is its own entity that keeps feeding itself. And it has almost all Americans believing that there is no other option.

If anything is going to change, it is going to take a new core of founding fathers. Like John Adams, who would not compromise his principles of fairness and liberty even to the point of defending the soldiers of the Boston Massacre...when he was in the midst of also fighting for fair treatment form the very King those soldiers represented.
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