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Hillary Clinton; I don't get it
Topic Started: Feb 6 2008, 04:15 PM (1,521 Views)
Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
8247
Feb 7 2008, 02:21 PM
Minuet
Feb 7 2008, 01:14 PM
8247
Feb 7 2008, 01:00 PM
^^^

I provided links for everything I said. Sorry if they weren't good enough for certain people. As I said before, this thread was asking why people don't like Hillary. I responded with my reasons.

:headscratch:

Are we talking about THIS thread?

You provided two links only. One of those links proved you were WRONG about a specific incident. The other link was to a comedy sketch about Hillary's laugh.

It is you who have the problem with people disagreeing with you - not the other way around.

I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. Just you, and your elitist holier than thou attitude.

Did someone make you an admininstrator again? You've been acting the way you used to lately.

Ok - this has gone far enough.

Why are you getting so upset that I DARE ask you to back up claims that have turned out to be false for the most part.

Really - turning this into a personal attack on me is not hurting me nearly as much as it is hurting you and your own credibility. Geeze I have never seen anyone go on so much about being asked to back up statements. :ermm: :no:

Mods - I respectfully request that you intervene to stop this personal attack on me. I have tried to stay on topic and I do not deserve this type of treatment.
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STC
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Dandandat
Feb 7 2008, 07:26 PM
STC
Feb 7 2008, 01:06 PM
Dandandat
Feb 7 2008, 04:37 PM
Intrepid
 
I can unequivocally say the same thing for John McCain, Barack Obama and John Edwards. Center-left, Center-right, I can take.


I would have to disagree with this? Barack Obama and John Edwards Center-left - I dont think so. joe lieberman is Center-left Edwards and Obama are just left.

I do find it interesting how different people from different countries perceive left and right. Of course, the perception of what is left and what is right depends on where one is standing.

Here is the Political Compass' take on the U.S. Presidential Primary candidates.

Posted Image

Posted Image

http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008

No offence STC but I hade a lot of problems with the Political Compass the time you posted it when you first came to the board. I assume not much has changed since them.

None taken, I just thought it worth throwing into the mix. :)
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Minuet
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Quote:
 
Your right, where she the type of person that compromised she would be a less polarizing person. It’s the mark of a good leader and a stronger person who can effetely compromise. It’s because of this as well as many of the things discussed here that make her the polarizing person she is.


Which has nothing to do with gender as IE suggested.


Or maybe it does have something to do with gender.

Let me explain. When a man sticks to his guns he is described as steadfast and sure of his convictions. And that is seen as a good thing. As soon as most politicians become compromising they are hit with the "flip flop" accusations.

But Hillary is never given the benefit of the good qualities associated with steadfastness. Instead she is "uncompromising" , "hard", "difficult", etc...

There could be a few reasons for this. One could be the vast right wing conspiracy, as shown in my earlier link. Or another possible reason is that people simply don't like to see those qualities in a woman because they percieve women as "nurturing".
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Quote:
 
Dandandat
Feb 7 2008, 04:37 PM
Intrepid
 
I can unequivocally say the same thing for John McCain, Barack Obama and John Edwards. Center-left, Center-right, I can take.


I would have to disagree with this? Barack Obama and John Edwards Center-left - I dont think so. joe lieberman is Center-left Edwards and Obama are just left.

I do find it interesting how different people from different countries perceive left and right. Of course, the perception of what is left and what is right depends on where one is standing.

Here is the Political Compass' take on the U.S. Presidential Primary candidates.

Posted Image

Posted Image

http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008



I was board,

Looks like I'm a far left loon by American standards, even more left then Hillary and Obama. I was wondering why I found I like Obama. (I still can’t like Hillary she mocked my intelligence as a New Yorker and it seems I’m more intelligent then she is – That’s what this chart is for right?) :P

Quote:
 
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -2.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.10
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STC
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Commodore
^^^

Dandandat,

Dennis Kucinich is your man ;)
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Minuet
Feb 7 2008, 03:01 PM
Quote:
 
Your right, where she the type of person that compromised she would be a less polarizing person. It’s the mark of a good leader and a stronger person who can effetely compromise. It’s because of this as well as many of the things discussed here that make her the polarizing person she is.


Which has nothing to do with gender as IE suggested.


Or maybe it does have something to do with gender.

Let me explain. When a man sticks to his guns he is described as steadfast and sure of his convictions. And that is seen as a good thing. As soon as most politicians become compromising they are hit with the "flip flop" accusations.

But Hillary is never given the benefit of the good qualities associated with steadfastness. Instead she is "uncompromising" , "hard", "difficult", etc...

There could be a few reasons for this. One could be the vast right wing conspiracy, as shown in my earlier link. Or another possible reason is that people simply don't like to see those qualities in a woman because they percieve women as "nurturing".

I don’t think it’s a gender thing or a right left thing. It’s how you compromise and how you stick to your guns. Its about your demeanor, if your seen as genuine or not and extra. The right wing does not sway my (personally) thoughts yet I have a big problem with Hillary nor am I sexist. It goes beyond these easy answers and is a character flaw she must deal with.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
STC
Feb 7 2008, 03:30 PM
^^^

Dandandat,

Dennis Kucinich is your man ;)

I saw that. To bad he wont be nominated, I'll have to ask him to be my VP on the Dante Party ticket.

That or I have to move to the UK to be with people more like me.
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Minuet
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Dandandat
Feb 7 2008, 03:32 PM
Minuet
Feb 7 2008, 03:01 PM
Quote:
 
Your right, where she the type of person that compromised she would be a less polarizing person. It’s the mark of a good leader and a stronger person who can effetely compromise. It’s because of this as well as many of the things discussed here that make her the polarizing person she is.


Which has nothing to do with gender as IE suggested.


Or maybe it does have something to do with gender.

Let me explain. When a man sticks to his guns he is described as steadfast and sure of his convictions. And that is seen as a good thing. As soon as most politicians become compromising they are hit with the "flip flop" accusations.

But Hillary is never given the benefit of the good qualities associated with steadfastness. Instead she is "uncompromising" , "hard", "difficult", etc...

There could be a few reasons for this. One could be the vast right wing conspiracy, as shown in my earlier link. Or another possible reason is that people simply don't like to see those qualities in a woman because they percieve women as "nurturing".

I don’t think it’s a gender thing or a right left thing. It’s how you compromise and how you stick to your guns. Its about your demeanor, if your seen as genuine or not and extra. The right wing does not sway my (personally) thoughts yet I have a big problem with Hillary nor am I sexist. It goes beyond these easy answers and is a character flaw she must deal with.

But why is it a character flaw?

If she flip flopped we would be calling that a character flaw. She loses either way. That doesn't make any sense to me.

You are right that there is no easy answer. I do think it is a combination of the things I suggested. Some dislike her for her liberalism. Others probably do have a problem with her gender (not you obviously :) ) Still others have a problem with her stint as First Lady (Admiralbill clearly has issues that go back to that) And still others have fallen hook line and sinker for the propaganda of the right wing commentators (I think we have seen a bit of that illustrated on this thread).
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
If she flilp flopped it would be a character flaw.

What is a flip flop?

A flip flop is not comprising; it is doing what ever the person you are trying to persuade wants you to do just so he likes you and supports you. It’s not having a stance at all and not caring about an issue. Compromise is when you do have a stance on an issue but give a little to your opponents so that you may both come to a better standing point.

Its not just being over bearing or being a flip floper and its not just sticking to your guns and comprising all four can exist and a leader is one who effectively balances sticking to their guns and compromising while at the same time eliminating the tendency to flip flop or be over bearing.

Hillary does not effectively do this.

Quote:
 
You are right that there is no easy answer. I do think it is a combination of the things I suggested. Some dislike her for her liberalism. Others probably do have a problem with her gender (not you obviously  ) Still others have a problem with her stint as First Lady (Admiralbill clearly has issues that go back to that) And still others have fallen hook line and sinker for the propaganda of the right wing commentators (I think we have seen a bit of that illustrated on this thread).
I would agree that it is multiple problems, one including her own character flaws which bring them all into focus.

People all around have to deal with these other issues you mentioned – There are woman in political power who are revered and some who are held back, there are people who get clobbered by political parties, there are people of strong liberal and/or conservative persuasion being disliked by the opposite persuasion.

Yet there is something about her that polarizes people stronger then others, and if its not the above alone it has to be her. And I think people have done a good job explain what is wrong with her in this thread.
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STC
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Dandandat
Feb 7 2008, 08:33 PM
STC
Feb 7 2008, 03:30 PM
^^^

Dandandat,

Dennis Kucinich is your man ;)

I saw that. To bad he wont be nominated, I'll have to ask him to be my VP on the Dante Party ticket.

That or I have to move to the UK to be with people more like me.

Even here you'll be hard pushed. Though you won't be considered a communist at least ;) or a socialist.

From what I can tell of Kucinich, he's more left-wing than our Labour Party. Probably fairly close to the Lib. Dems. here mind you but they are very much our 3rd party.
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
Damn, I hate it when work gets in the way of posting. I started this thread and then so much happened at work since then that I have had no time to post. So I'm going to summarize for now.

So far, the reasons for disliking Hillary seem to fall into the following categories:

1) Her political views/positions

2) Rumor/Reputation/Personality (I lumped these together because they may or may not be true, but many believe them to be. These are things like her alleged treatment of White House Marines as First Lady, a lack of genuineness, temper, boring personality, campaign tactics, manipulativeness, air of entitlement)

3) Previous work or actions (national healthcare, It Takes A Village, staying married to Bill after he cheated on her, scandals during Bill's terms)

4) Somerled's inability to spell paradigm. ;)

5) Opinions (she overstepped her boundaries as First Lady)


The examples listed in parentheses weren't intended to be complete so I'm sure I missed some. I'm just describing the general idea.


For me, I think Dandandat may have been correct after all when he said:
Quote:
 
As a Clinton supporter I think you fall to see exactly what it is that people don’t like about her, because you don’t agree that she exhibits these qualities. Which is why you think it is only about her being a strong woman.
Regarding her political views, they aren't that far from my own so of course that doesn't bother me.

Regarding the items in Rumor/Reputation/Personality, about the only one I have seen evidence for is "boring". (But next to GW Bush, she's practically charismatic so I guess that's not all that important. :D) Perhaps there is some truth in that list, but I haven't seen evidence in support of it. As such, I tend to believe it's one of those "if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it" types of things. And as the lies caught on and more and more people joined the anti-Hillary bandwagon, some people probably even started urban legends such as her alleged treatment of Marines in the White House. (Regarding the treatment of Marines, I freely admit that is my best guess and that I could very well be quite wrong. But, like Minuet, I spent considerable time trying to find evidence for this on the internet and all I found were unsubstantiated claims - very similar to what Minuet found, which is how I arrived at my conclusion.)

Regarding her previous work and actions, I just don't have the same problems with those as some people apparently do. Her work on national healthcare may have been problematic, but I think she has proven her ability to learn from past mistakes - for example, Wichita's description of how she learned about the military. I have no reason to believe she would try the same approach and, in fact, she is campaigning on a different one, despite some on the right trying to claim it hasn't changed. While I may not agree that "it takes a village" necessarily to raise a child, I do believe a village can help a great deal and can be quite advantageous compared to its absence. As for her sticking with Bill, that's her business and that's all I have to say about it. There are too many factors that must have gone into that very personal decision of hers so who am I to judge either way when I can't possible know even close to all of those factors...?

Finally, I disagree that Hillary overstepped her bounds as First Lady. First Ladies typically get involved with some particular issue or issues. Why couldn't that be something like national healthcare? This is the 21st century (and was the end of the 20th then). Maybe we should recognize that when we elect a President, the spouse will be involved too. Maybe that involvement should be more than what it has typically been in the past. Things change with time and change isn't necessarily bad. I don't see the big deal.


So, what Dan said probably does explain why I don't have the extreme dislike for Hillary that so many do seem to have. However, I'm still not entirely sure what makes Hillary receive different treatment. There are certainly other politicians whose views are disliked, who have undesirable personality characteristics, whose past work is disliked, etc., but who don't become objects of nearly the same animosity.

I still do think that at least some part of this - and probably only for some people - is because she's a woman. I think Minuet was on the right track with what I'm talking about. Men who are assertive or steadfast are viewed as "strong". Assertive women are often viewed as "bitchy" or "uncompromising". I also think some men see successful women as a threat.
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RTW
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ImpulseEngine
Feb 8 2008, 11:08 AM
So far, the reasons for disliking Hillary seem to fall into the following categories:

1) Her political views/positions

2) Rumor/Reputation/Personality (I lumped these together because they may or may not be true, but many believe them to be. These are things like her alleged treatment of White House Marines as First Lady, a lack of genuineness, temper, boring personality, campaign tactics, manipulativeness, air of entitlement)

3) Previous work or actions (national healthcare, It Takes A Village, staying married to Bill after he cheated on her, scandals during Bill's terms)

4) Somerled's inability to spell paradigm. ;)

5) Opinions (she overstepped her boundaries as First Lady)

I think that's a fair and comprehensive list.

Thank you for omitting "Gender" and/or "She's a strong woman".

Personally, I was a fan of Hillary's until that pair of dimes controversy.

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Minuet
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RTW
Feb 8 2008, 01:15 PM
ImpulseEngine
Feb 8 2008, 11:08 AM
So far, the reasons for disliking Hillary seem to fall into the following categories:

1) Her political views/positions

2) Rumor/Reputation/Personality (I lumped these together because they may or may not be true, but many believe them to be.  These are things like her alleged treatment of White House Marines as First Lady, a lack of genuineness, temper, boring personality, campaign tactics, manipulativeness, air of entitlement)

3) Previous work or actions (national healthcare, It Takes A Village, staying married to Bill after he cheated on her, scandals during Bill's terms)

4) Somerled's inability to spell paradigm. ;)

5) Opinions (she overstepped her boundaries as First Lady)

I think that's a fair and comprehensive list.

Thank you for omitting "Gender" and/or "She's a strong woman".

Personally, I was a fan of Hillary's until that pair of dimes controversy.

Posted Image

He didn't omit gender.

IE
 
I still do think that at least some part of this - and probably only for some people - is because she's a woman. I think Minuet was on the right track with what I'm talking about. Men who are assertive or steadfast are viewed as "strong". Assertive women are often viewed as "bitchy" or "uncompromising". I also think some men see successful women as a threat.


Why is it important to you that the idea of gender being a part of it be omitted? You personally have not said anything gender related in this thread and I don't see the inclusion of it as a possible reason being aimed at you or anyone else who has posted in this thread. I think it is well within the realm of possibility that it is a problem for some people "out there" as shown by some of the language used. :shrug:

Edit - BTW, cute pair of dimes joke. :lol:
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RTW
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:no:

I don't see it on his list.

I see him stating his assumption/point of view that it should be on the list, but apparently none of the people who actually dislike Hillary gave that as a reason.

On the other hand, people say they dislike McCain (for example) due to his policies and past decisions but I know better. They actually dislike him because he'd old. I mean, com'on, if these people who dislike McCain were smart enough to know why they disliked him, they'd undoubtedly support him. Someone has to set them straight. ;)
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Minuet
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RTW
Feb 8 2008, 02:12 PM
:no:

I don't see it on his list.

I see him stating his assumption/point of view that it should be on the list, but apparently none of the people who actually dislike Hillary gave that as a reason.

On the other hand, people say they dislike McCain (for example) due to his policies and past decisions but I know better. They actually dislike him because he'd old. I mean, com'on, if these people who dislike McCain were smart enough to know why they disliked him, they'd undoubtedly support him. Someone has to set them straight. ;)

Actually I have seen people on this board say they don't want to vote for McCain because of his age.
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