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Hillary Clinton; I don't get it
Topic Started: Feb 6 2008, 04:15 PM (1,525 Views)
Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
8247
Feb 6 2008, 04:58 PM
Minuet
Feb 6 2008, 04:41 PM
8247
Feb 6 2008, 04:26 PM
She is a socialist.

Well, not by Canadian standards, but what the heck, I will give you that one.

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She holds the US Military in contempt.


She had Marines on several occasions serving drinks in full uniform at White House functions
This one you don't get. I have never seen evidence of this and would ask you to provide SPECIFIC proof of this claim.

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She believes that the US is great because of its government.


Ummm - don't most Americans feel that way. Is not your government a part of what makes you a great country. Would you want a different style or structure to your government?

No...America is great because of its people. Not its government.

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She believes that it is the role of the government to control people's lives.


There is a big difference between believing that the government can help better people's lives and believing the government should control people's lives. You are stating a lot of "beliefs" without backing them up. I think this is what you believe of her, but not what she actually believes.

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She believes that people's money is her for her to take.


Really - this is the first time I have heard anyone accuse her of the crime of theft. You really should watch those accusations.

In a speech about the oil company profits, she said and I quote "I want to take those profits, and give them to people who will use it to develop other fuel."

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Her answer to everything is more government.


EVERYTHING??? I challenge you to back this one up. Again, I think you are being influenced by your own prejudices rather then reality.

Ok...Universal health care. That's more government. The government to regulate banks. That's more government. Government to regulate people's carbon emissions..That's more government, and are all things that she has said she intended to do.

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She has contempt for the American family structure.


Really? And what exactly do you mean by that. She backed up her husband and stayed with him when he didn't deserve it. Yet you accuse her of contempt for the family? She fought tooth and nail for her own. This comment is sheer silliness.

Well, considering she is supposed to be for women's rights too, yet she lets Bill walk all over her, and demonizes his victims. Her family is a joke...Also, I believe harboring a rapist is a crime.

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She mocks people by trying to make people think she is one of them.



Examples please. I really don't know what you mean by this. I have never seen her mock anyone.

Well, in a black neighborhood, she donned a fake accent complete with bad grammar to make the people think she was one of them.

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She alters her routine and positions according to what the polls say.


Examples please.

Well, people at CNN were saying that she should smile and laugh more. The next day, she did that interview with that hideous laugh, and a smile that looked as real as the Joker's. Also, CNN was saying that she needed to appear sensitive. The next day, she cried in a speech, and all the lemmings went "Awwwwww!"

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Need some more reasons?


Well, considering that most of the ones you provided are so weak........ :P


:P I'm at work, so I cant copy and paste every question, so I answered them in the quote.

Feel free to wait until you get home to answer. Frankly most of these answers seem more like anti-liberal propaganda then real answers. Take some time to think about it.

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She had Marines on several occasions serving drinks in full uniform at White House functions


May I ask how this equates to holding the military in contempt? I don't quite get it. When she lived in the Whitehouse her husband was Commander-in-chief. Was he the first President ever to have military people serve drinks? Or is this a long standing tradition. I mean come on, serving drinks as proof for holding people in contempt? Surely you can come up with something stronger then that, can't you?

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No...America is great because of its people. Not its government


And those great people chose a democratic style of government. One that was vastly different from the parliamentary tradition of it's forebearers in England. I see the people and the government as intertwined. Members of the government are citizens too.

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In a speech about the oil company profits, she said and I quote "I want to take those profits, and give them to people who will use it to develop other fuel."


First of all that is a company - not "people". Second, could you provide a transcript of her entire speech rather then just a sentence that could quite possibly be being taken out of context. Thank you.

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Ok...Universal health care. That's more government. The government to regulate banks. That's more government. Government to regulate people's carbon emissions..That's more government, and are all things that she has said she intended to do.


Thank you for FINALLY mentioning some actual policies. It is your right to disagree with those policies and mentioning those makes your case a whole lot stronger then the nonsense posted previously.

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Well, considering she is supposed to be for women's rights too, yet she lets Bill walk all over her, and demonizes his victims. Her family is a joke...Also, I believe harboring a rapist is a crime.


:no:

Bill is no angel, but you are accusing him of a crime he did not commit. The man is not a rapist. He did many wrong things ethically - none of which could be considered a "crime",

And this comment does not answer the question. You made a direct accusation of her having contempt for the American family structure. You have not yet defined exactly what you mean by "American family structure" nor have you shown that she holds your definition, or any other in contempt. Define your terms so that we can A) determine if you are using an accurate definition. And B) whether or not she holds it in contempt.

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Well, in a black neighborhood, she donned a fake accent complete with bad grammar to make the people think she was one of them.


Could you provide a direct link to this story. I haven't heard anything about it and would like to check it's veracity.

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Well, people at CNN were saying that she should smile and laugh more. The next day, she did that interview with that hideous laugh, and a smile that looked as real as the Joker's. Also, CNN was saying that she needed to appear sensitive. The next day, she cried in a speech, and all the lemmings went "Awwwwww!"


I personally am not of the opinion that she did this in response to any polls or comments. This is not really a good example because no one knows for sure, although lots of people have opinions.

Besides which you stated "positions" as well as routine. You have not provided an example of a position that she has changed her mind on. And her political position is supposedly far more important then her personality.
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
8247,
Your reasons match well with what I typically hear and, as such, are also typical of what I don't understand. Those are huge generalities. Take, for example, "socialist". I suspect she gets that label because of work on universal healthcare as First Lady. But, agreeing with Socialists on one specific thing doesn't make a person a Socialist. Similarly, I could probably think of some examples for other items on your lists, but not enough for her to earn the generic labels.

38957,
Not liking her politics is fine. That I can understand even if I don't agree, but it doesn't explain the extraordinary animosity that she receives. This is part of why I started this thread. When it comes right down to it, it seems to me that her adversaries really just don't like her politics too. So that makes me question why she gets so much more negative attention.

HistoryDude,
I honestly wasn't aware that anyone else besides me was blaming it on her being a strong woman. The main reason I'm doing so is I can't identify any other reason that hold truth for me. Saying she is a "socialist" for example (not picking on 8247 - a lot of people have used that same label for her) isn't accurate IMO and such a blown out of proportion label strikes me as a symptom of a larger issue. That issue is what I'm trying to understand. Right now the only guess I have to explain it is that she's a strong, intelligent woman which makes her stand out and become a target.

I do see her as more vilified than most. She was vilified as First Lady, vilified when she ran for Senator of New York, vilifed at anytime people suspected she was considering running for President, and now vilified again while running. That's not to say there aren't a few others I can think of who are subjected to a lot of animosity - Ted Kennedy, for example - but I also have a greater understanding of where it comes from concerning those people.

Telling people what they want to hear - is there a politician out there who doesn't?


Dan,
How is she more manipulative than any other politician? (The "crying", if you can really call it that - more like a little choked up, was a one-time occurrence which happened long after the animosity began.)

How does she "force her views" on others?

What did she do to overstep her bounds as First Lady?

I don't agree that it's hard for me to see simply because my views align in large part with hers. That's true of a lot of people who don't get nearly the same negative attention. You do make a valid point, however, about other strong women, although Hillary has been in an unusual number of higher positions comparatively - attorney, First Lady, Senator.
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
RTW
Feb 6 2008, 05:10 PM
Many were annoyed with the unelected First Lady pushing Hillary-care.  When told how it would negatively effect small business she coldly replied that she can't be responsible for every undercapitalized business in the USA.  Talk about Draconian!

I'm aware that a lot of people didn't like her work regarding national healthcare. But is that really IT...? Because, that's among the very few "explanations" that make any sense at all to me.

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We had eight years of -gate scandals during the Clinton presidency and many of them revolved around the First Lady.
And how many involving Hillary specifically were proven?

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The "strong woman" argument is laughable.  Many who don't approve of Clinton are/were big supporters of Meir, Thatcher, Rice, Coulter, etc.
Regarding Rice and Coulter, they aren't a threat to the establishment in the same way that a woman President would be. Hillary's Presidential aspirations have been known for some time - long before she started running - and I think this contributes greatly to the negative attention she receives. Bringing Meir and Thatcher into this is almost irrelevant since they were in power in other countries. I don't believe the anti-Hillary sentiment extends beyond our borders except in normal numbers (meaning no more or less than for any other American politician).

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I don't get how she's a hero to feminists.  Many women attend Ivy League colleges and become lawyers.  Just not all of them ride the coattails of their husbands into politics.  In addition, what true feminist stay with a man that repeatedly cheats on her?
I don't get how she's not - which is also true for many feminists. I think her staying with Bill is her business not to be admired or scorned by those of us who really have a minuscule outsiders understanding of the matter.
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8247
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Apparently we look like this now
Quote:
 
May I ask how this equates to holding the military in contempt? I don't quite get it. When she lived in the Whitehouse her husband was Commander-in-chief. Was he the first President ever to have military people serve drinks? Or is this a long standing tradition. I mean come on, serving drinks as proof for holding people in contempt? Surely you can come up with something stronger then that, can't you?


Marines are not bartenders. That incident was a disgrace, and showed what she thought of them. Not to mention the fact that the military was reduced significantly under Bill's presidency.


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First of all that is a company - not "people". Second, could you provide a transcript of her entire speech rather then just a sentence that could quite possibly be being taken out of context. Thank you.


Still, stockholders are people. And, it isn't up to the government to decide what a company does with its profit. I posted it a while back. The title of the thread was Hillary Admits She's a Socialist.


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And this comment does not answer the question. You made a direct accusation of her having contempt for the American family structure. You have not yet defined exactly what you mean by "American family structure" nor have you shown that she holds your definition, or any other in contempt. Define your terms so that we can A) determine if you are using an accurate definition. And B) whether or not she holds it in contempt.


Welfare harms families, and she wants to broaden it.


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Could you provide a direct link to this story. I haven't heard anything about it and would like to check it's veracity.



http://mediamatters.org/items/200703060009


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Besides which you stated "positions" as well as routine. You have not provided an example of a position that she has changed her mind on. And her political position is supposedly far more important then her personality.


Well, her vote on the war, for one.

Oh...And, here's the story on that hideous cackle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etk_O-nhlA4



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STC
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8247
 
Marines are not bartenders. That incident was a disgrace, and showed what she thought of them. Not to mention the fact that the military was reduced significantly under Bill's presidency.


Why are you so bothered about Marines, or any military personnel. serving drinks from a bar?

8247
 
Still, stockholders are people. And, it isn't up to the government to decide what a company does with its profit. I posted it a while back. The title of the thread was Hillary Admits She's a Socialist.


That is a matter of opinion, and a value judgement. If that is your opinion then you are perfectly entitled to hold it of course :). But it is not a universal truth. Others disagree with that. I for one certainly do, as I do not believe in the intrinsic right to retain all private income as I think government has a duty to correct market failures through re-distribution.

9247
 
Ok...Universal health care. That's more government. The government to regulate banks. That's more government. Government to regulate people's carbon emissions..That's more government, and are all things that she has said she intended to do.


In the context of your earlier quote you appear (correct me if I'm wrong) to say that more government is bad. Again, you make it sound like this is some kind of consensus or agreed universal truth. Well I disagree, as I suspect Clinton does. IMO more equal distribution of health care, regulation of banks (no offence but I think you need that over there right now) and control of carbon emissions seem to me like good things for government to do.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
8247
Feb 6 2008, 06:37 PM
Quote:
 
May I ask how this equates to holding the military in contempt? I don't quite get it. When she lived in the Whitehouse her husband was Commander-in-chief. Was he the first President ever to have military people serve drinks? Or is this a long standing tradition. I mean come on, serving drinks as proof for holding people in contempt? Surely you can come up with something stronger then that, can't you?


Marines are not bartenders. That incident was a disgrace, and showed what she thought of them. Not to mention the fact that the military was reduced significantly under Bill's presidency.

You didn't respond to my direct questions. Has this been a standard thing that has been done for other presidents or not? Please respond with a yes or a no.

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First of all that is a company - not "people". Second, could you provide a transcript of her entire speech rather then just a sentence that could quite possibly be being taken out of context. Thank you.


Still, stockholders are people. And, it isn't up to the government to decide what a company does with its profit. I posted it a while back. The title of the thread was Hillary Admits She's a Socialist.


I am not going to go search for an old thread. You made the accusation, you do the search and provide the link. As I recall that thread I believe it was a tempest in a teapot.

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And this comment does not answer the question. You made a direct accusation of her having contempt for the American family structure. You have not yet defined exactly what you mean by "American family structure" nor have you shown that she holds your definition, or any other in contempt. Define your terms so that we can A) determine if you are using an accurate definition. And B) whether or not she holds it in contempt.


Welfare harms families, and she wants to broaden it.


Boy you really are avoiding answering this question, aren't you?

I would say nice try - but this weak response doesn't qualify. It's answers like this that prompt my accusations that you are giving me nothing but Conservative/Republican talking points. This question had nothing to do with welfare and it is only your opinion that it harms families. I don't agree with that. I think that properly done welfare can strengthen families. By giving a hand up.

But to refocus on the original comment I ask once again - How do you define "American family structure"? And how EXACTLY does Hillary show contempt for it?

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Could you provide a direct link to this story. I haven't heard anything about it and would like to check it's veracity.



http://mediamatters.org/items/200703060009



:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Do you read your own sources???

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Hill also mocked a portion of Clinton's speech, in which Clinton quoted Rev. James Cleveland's hymn, "I don't feel noways tired." After airing that excerpt of Clinton's speech, Hill stated: "Well, I don't feel noways tired, neither" and asserted that "it did seem sort of strange to hear a Yankee affecting a Southern drawl." Hill did not mention that Clinton was quoting a hymn.


I really don't think quoting a hymn qualifies as mocking people. Try again. :rotfl:

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Besides which you stated "positions" as well as routine. You have not provided an example of a position that she has changed her mind on. And her political position is supposedly far more important then her personality.


Well, her vote on the war, for one.

Oh...And, here's the story on that hideous cackle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etk_O-nhlA4


Gee, you don't like her laugh. That's a good reason to reject a candidate :rolleyes:

As to her vote on the war - did she change it in response to her constituency? Or because further facts were brought to the fore that she did not have previously? Or maybe a combination of both. A lot of people changed thier stance as new information became available. It is a politician's job to be in touch with what the people who voted for them want.


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captain_proton_au
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RTW
Feb 6 2008, 04:10 PM
I don't get how she's a hero to feminists. Many women attend Ivy League colleges and become lawyers. Just not all of them ride the coattails of their husbands into politics. In addition, what true feminist stay with a man that repeatedly cheats on her?

Interesting RTW, that that is your definition of a true feminist, one that should sabotage career and status just because her husband couldnt keep it in his pants.

From what I've seen their marriage is based more on best friends than archaic promises at the altar. I don't think anyone would proceed into a marriage with a guy like Bill realistically expecting life long fidelity
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Minuet
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Dandandat
Feb 6 2008, 05:17 PM
Minuet
Feb 6 2008, 05:03 PM
Could she not like both teams? I really don't see this as mocking. Especially since the Cubs are National League and the Yankees are American League.

One more thing on that picture. We get lots of celebrities up here in Toronto taking in ball games, hockey games, etc. They are usually pictured wearing the local team's hat or shirt. That doesn't mean that they have suddenly become a major Blue Jays fan and have forgotten thier own home town. Using a picture like that as "proof" is just manipulation on the part of the book's author.

Yes I added the picture for humor, the argument can and does stand alone. I dont like the Yankees - yet I am a New Yorker


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Now her professing her admiration for New York might be politically expedient. But mocking? Not the same thing. She might very well love New York. And no one has proven otherwise.


She didn’t just profess to admire New York she passed her self off as a New Yorker. Her campaign was built around trying to make it look as if she fit in when she was a clear outsider. She didn’t go to that Yankee game because she wanted to watch bass ball. She wanted a photo op of her doing a typical New York thing so that people would associate her with the state. She was being manipulative and that does mock the intelligence of the people of New York.

If she was the right person for the job all she had to do was say "I’m not from here, I don’t know what its like to be a New Yorker, but I have a lot of political power, my hand is on the pulse of Washington and so I have the potential to be the best dam senator you’d ever had. Tell me your wishes and I will make them come true" and New Yorkers might have even bought that. But that’s not what she did, what she did was try to pass her self off as someone who knew what it was like to live in New York, that she understood our issues intrinsically and was the best person to act on them because she cared so deeply for those issues.

All I can say Dante is that this is your opinion only. Obviously a lot of people believed she was sincere. How else to explain that she actually won the election? :shrug:

It is certainly not a proven fact that she has mocked anyone.
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RTW
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Feb 6 2008, 05:19 PM
Why are you so bothered about Marines, or any military personnel. serving drinks from a bar?

Why do some women get offended when they're specifically asked to fetch the coffee at a business meeting?
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RTW
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captain_proton_au
Feb 6 2008, 05:32 PM
RTW
Feb 6 2008, 04:10 PM
I don't get how she's a hero to feminists.  Many women attend Ivy League colleges and become lawyers.  Just not all of them ride the coattails of their husbands into politics.  In addition, what true feminist stay with a man that repeatedly cheats on her?

Interesting RTW, that that is your definition of a true feminist, one that should sabotage career and status just because her husband couldnt keep it in his pants.

Are you implyng that, without Bill, Hillary would have no career or status?
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Minuet
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RTW
Feb 6 2008, 07:40 PM
STC
Feb 6 2008, 05:19 PM
Why are you so bothered about Marines, or any military personnel. serving drinks from a bar?

Why do some women get offended when they're specifically asked to fetch the coffee at a business meeting?

Answering a question with a question is a cheap avoidance of an answer.

And no one yet has answered my question as to whether or not this has happened with any other President. We want facts, not sound bites.
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somerled
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Imagine how much better the USA would be if some socialistiic policies were enacted by their federal government :
- universial health care
- a proper pharmaceutical benefiits scheme
- a better social safety net
- reduced education costs
- more of the money was spent on infrastructure and less of it went fund corporate wealthfare (the Pentagon and arms indusrtres)

and if tight gun restrictions were imposed.

No one objects to her because she is married to Bill ?

No one objects to her because she is a woman ?

:rotfl:
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
RTW
Feb 7 2008, 10:40 AM
STC
Feb 6 2008, 05:19 PM
Why are you so bothered about Marines, or any military personnel. serving drinks from a bar?

Why do some women get offended when they're specifically asked to fetch the coffee at a business meeting?

Same reason why you would be offended if asked to do the same thing I expect.

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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
somerled
Feb 6 2008, 07:52 PM
Imagine how much better the USA would be if some socialistiic policies were enacted by their federal government :
- universial health care
- a proper pharmaceutical benefiits scheme
- a better social safety net
- reduced education costs
- more of the money was spent on infrastructure and less of it went fund corporate wealthfare (the Pentagon and arms indusrtres)

So, what color is the sky in your universe?

:rotfl:
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
Little additional tidbits as to why Hillary Clinton is not well-regarded.

The "cattle futures" explanation.

Whitewater

The Health Care Task Force and it's resultant proposal.

Shady dealings not withstanding, she suffers from the same "finger in the wind" disease her husband did.

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