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Why is freedom a right?; Philosophically not historically
Topic Started: Jan 16 2008, 01:54 PM (445 Views)
Minuet
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ImpulseEngine
Jan 16 2008, 05:46 PM
The Declaration of Independence legally grants those rights and, by extension, its authors do too. I understand what you are saying that they regarded them as pre-existing rights that society must acknowledge, but I would argue that the Declaration of Independence grants the legal aspect of those rights and so, legally speaking, grants those rights themselves.

If the Declaration of Independance granted those rights then why did slavery exist in the United States long after the Declaration was signed.

I submit that despite the wording freedom wasn't really so self-evident.
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Franko
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The whole history of humanity is about power and control. It's interesting to note that the moment an individual submits to an authoritarian ruling class (whether secular or religious) they immediately become disrespected and considered pawns of the aims of said conglomerate.

No Masters

No Rulers

No Gods


The ultimate freedom. Unfortunately, there is no freedom from the Self. Try as one might, I can gain freedom from the State or the Church, but will still have to deal with the prison of twisted conciousness known as my mind.

Thought I'd just cheer everyone up. :ermm:


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Fesarius
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^^^
"Obedience is victory. And victory ... is life."

;)
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RTW
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Minuet
Jan 16 2008, 05:35 PM
If the Declaration of Independance granted those rights then why did slavery exist in the United States long after the Declaration was signed.

I submit that despite the wording freedom wasn't really so self-evident.

Try to think about this from an 18th century perspective. Slavery was not unique to the United States. The United States did not invent slavery. Slavery at the scale it occured would have been impossible without the help of the Africans who were selling their rivals into slavery.

Why did the USA allow slavery? Slavery was a deal breaker.

Without slavery there wouldn't have been a United States. Without the United States slavery may never have been abolished in the entire region now considered the United States.

The Founding Fathers had foresight. They knew if they created the union there was a chance they could fix it later. If there was no union then that chance was greatly reduced.
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Minuet
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Jan 16 2008, 11:18 PM
Minuet
Jan 16 2008, 05:35 PM
If the Declaration of Independance granted those rights then why did slavery exist in the United States long after the Declaration was signed.

I submit that despite the wording freedom wasn't really so self-evident.

Try to imagination what was acceptable in the 18th century. Slavery was not unique to the United States. The United States did not invent slavery. Slavery at the scale it occured would have been impossible without the help of the Africans who were selling their rivals into slavery.

Why did the USA allow slavery? Slavery was a deal breaker.

Without slavery there wouldn't have been a United States. Without the United States slavery may never have been abolished in the entire region now considered the United States.

The Founding Fathers had foresight. They knew if they created the union there was a chance they could fix it later. If there was no union then that chance was greatly reduced.

Americans fought a civil war - Americans against Americans - to end slavery. So obviously not all Americans believed in freedom for all.

I cannot give credit that the founding fathers had foresight. Their definition of "men" also excluded women back then. Yes, it was the mindset of the time. Yet you are giving them credit for having a modern mindset. The evidence is to the contrary.
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ImpulseEngine
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Minuet
Jan 16 2008, 07:35 PM
ImpulseEngine
Jan 16 2008, 05:46 PM
The Declaration of Independence legally grants those rights and, by extension, its authors do too.  I understand what you are saying that they regarded them as pre-existing rights that society must acknowledge, but I would argue that the Declaration of Independence grants the legal aspect of those rights and so, legally speaking, grants those rights themselves.

If the Declaration of Independance granted those rights then why did slavery exist in the United States long after the Declaration was signed.

I submit that despite the wording freedom wasn't really so self-evident.

That's a very good point that you raise and the only answer I have is a guess: Apparently "all men" didn't include black people. Why not? I'm not sure. But then I never could understand the mindset of anyone who would enslave another human being anyway.
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ImpulseEngine
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Jan 16 2008, 11:18 PM
Minuet
Jan 16 2008, 05:35 PM
If the Declaration of Independance granted those rights then why did slavery exist in the United States long after the Declaration was signed.

I submit that despite the wording freedom wasn't really so self-evident.

Try to imagination what was acceptable in the 18th century. Slavery was not unique to the United States. The United States did not invent slavery. Slavery at the scale it occured would have been impossible without the help of the Africans who were selling their rivals into slavery.

Why did the USA allow slavery? Slavery was a deal breaker.

Without slavery there wouldn't have been a United States. Without the United States slavery may never have been abolished in the entire region now considered the United States.

The Founding Fathers had foresight. They knew if they created the union there was a chance they could fix it later. If there was no union then that chance was greatly reduced.

I can't reconcile the allowance of slavery with the concept of liberty for all as was Minuet's question, but slavery did not exist as a deal breaker. What you said about what was generally considered acceptable back then was more accurate. Slavery was commonplace and so not necessarily unacceptable to many people. It served an economic means to an end (among other things) for slave holders. Those are the reasons it existed. But the United States would have existed just fine without it. As for foresight, I agree our Founding Fathers had it, but no, slavery wasn't any part of that. If anything, that's where their foresight was lacking.
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Franko
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Without slavery there wouldn't have been a United States.



I'm curious as to how you would qualify that statement.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Why wouldn't it be a RIGHT for EVERYONE to be free (ummm ?? from what exactly ?) ??

I think the question posed is too ambiguous and needs to be made more specific .
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
somerled
Jan 17 2008, 02:21 AM
Why wouldn't it be a RIGHT for EVERYONE to be free (ummm ?? from what exactly ?) ??

I think the question posed is too ambiguous and needs to be made more specific .

Why is it ambiguous? What question would you ask?

Why WOULD freedom be a RIGHT for EVERYONE (from other humans)?
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Minuet
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Fesarius
Jan 16 2008, 02:04 PM
^^^
Great question. For my own part, I don't believe that freedom is a 'right,' any more than I believe people have a 'right' to be happy. That's really all I'd like to say on the subject, however. :)

I've been thinking about this one and I think I understand why you have said this. Speaking philosophically, from a religious Judeo/Christian background freedom is not a given.

However, I might argue that it is a right to eventually be free. Slavery was allowed but the Torah gives specific rules on how slaves should be treated. Those rules include eventual freedom - either after 7 years or on the Jubilee year (every 50th year I believe). Therefore while freedom is not something we should expect to have at all times it is something that we can say is a G-d given gift after paying our dues, so to speak. :)
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HistoryDude
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Shaken, not stirred...
Dandandat
Jan 17 2008, 07:48 AM
Why WOULD freedom be a RIGHT for EVERYONE (from other humans)?

Because I believe that God created us all equal and has commanded us to serve each other in love and respect and honor and to good purpose. Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. If you do no believe in God, I still submit that it is a fundamental rule - The Golden Rule - of all major belief systems in world history, so, while not always honored by the power hungry and greedy and evil, I submit that this similarity proves that there has been an inherent moral compunction in human nature to do what is right - respect and acknowledge the right of everyone to their own freedom - and that the vast majority of common humanity has lived it.

While the ruling men and classes in Jefferson's day had a different mind-set about what constituted the equality of which he spoke (and who benefited from that concept), Old Tom nonetheless nurtured the roots for a discussion and process of broader inclusion for all men and women and children that would grow into a freedom tree over the next couple of centuries that is still spreading its branches to parts of the world that do not know it, yet. He and thinkers like him began to take society out of the "old" mindsets and start thinking anew.

It is true that the Declaration smacks a bit of hypocrisy to us today because of the state of women and black slavery. But it is way more an in-depth issue than that for us to sit here over two and a quarter centuries later and denounce or criticize the founding fathers for their "oversight." Clearly slavery was an issue that many did not like, while many on the other side would die to defend it. It would end up being a refining fire for our nation and came very close form preventing its formation in the first place. Jefferson himself acknowledged it was wrong but compared it to "holding a wolf by the tail. You don't like it, but you don't dare let it go." Besides, the young nation had already just overthrown another centuries old mindset - the monarchy. How many giant leaps do you really expect a people to take in one generation?
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RTW
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Minuet
Jan 16 2008, 09:46 PM
Americans fought a civil war - Americans against Americans - to end slavery. So obviously not all Americans believed in freedom for all.
Thank you for supporting my point that slavery was a deal breaker, and for pointing out that half of America thought ending slavery was important enough to risk losing the union.

Minuet
Jan 16 2008, 09:46 PM
I cannot give credit that the founding fathers had foresight. Their definition of "men" also excluded women back then.
Welcome to 18th century earth. ;)

Minuet
Jan 16 2008, 09:46 PM
Yes, it was the mindset of the time. Yet you are giving them credit for having a modern mindset. The evidence is to the contrary.

It's so easy to use 350 years of collective wisdom and insight to disparage those who came before us.

Heck, Isaac Newton was in his 30s or 40s when he figured out gravity. Most of us had gravity figured out in elementary school.

Heck, nobody in the 18th century even knew how to drive a car - something most of us for granted. :lol:


It seems inconsistent to award people such as Menachem Begin, Anwar Sadat and Yassar Arafat Nobel Peace Prizes for talking about, but not achieving, peace, yet dismiss analagous ground breaking and culture changing efforts and discussions from three centuries earlier.
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Minuet
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^^^ I was unaware my remarks were disparaging. I simply disagreed that your founding fathers had the forsight you give them credit for. I think we agree they were a product of thier time. :shrug:
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Jan 17 2008, 02:18 PM
Minuet
Jan 16 2008, 05:35 PM
If the Declaration of Independance granted those rights then why did slavery exist in the United States long after the Declaration was signed.

I submit that despite the wording freedom wasn't really so self-evident.

Try to think about this from an 18th century perspective. Slavery was not unique to the United States. The United States did not invent slavery. Slavery at the scale it occured would have been impossible without the help of the Africans who were selling their rivals into slavery.

Why did the USA allow slavery? Slavery was a deal breaker.

Without slavery there wouldn't have been a United States. Without the United States slavery may never have been abolished in the entire region now considered the United States.

The Founding Fathers had foresight. They knew if they created the union there was a chance they could fix it later. If there was no union then that chance was greatly reduced.

Maybe you should watch AMAZING GRACE , which is a dramatisation of William Wilberforce's campaign in the early 1700s to abolish slavery throughout the British Empire.
I watched this last night on DVD , I had already heard of him (one of Pitts contemparies) before , a man ahead of his time , or perhaps the USA was behind the times.

Over 130 years before the USA abolished slavery. So why do slavery persist in the USA so much longer ?
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