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Muslim man in Dallas kills daughters; for acting like Americans
Topic Started: Jan 4 2008, 11:56 AM (2,522 Views)
RTW
Member Avatar
Vice Admiral
ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
Let's see, the title of the source for your post is "Middle East Forum - Promoting American Interests".  Wow, that sounds unbiased now doesn't it.
Now you're doing impressions of (you know who) too? Are the statements incorrect? Argue the statements/facts, not the source. There were over 100,000 hits on my google search. I just picked to first few to read.


ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
What that article overlooks (and apparently you as well)...
Oh great, now you're doing impressions of (you know who) too?


ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
...is that it is the government of Jordan that allows these honor killings, not Islam.  As such, it is not a "Muslim" issue, but a Jordanian one.
I was just looking to see how/if "honor killers" were prosecuted. You found many examples of governments being against honor killings, but no examples of honor killers being punished.

As far as governments vs religion, I go back to this question from way back on the third page:
Quote:
 
Are they cultural and not religious? Can the two be separated in such a devoutly religious culture?


How long have these countries been Islamic theocracies, and, if honor killings are against Islam, why are they commonplace compared to the rest of the world?


ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
...The fact is the Koran and Sharia make no mention of honor killings and condemn murder.
Great words, now we just need some examples of actions to fit those words. Condemning murder AND murderers.


ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
...I noticed you completely ignored the American statistics of honor killings that Minuet provided.  Why...?
Did she add more to the conversation than the usual insults and personal crusades? Guess I missed them.


ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
...Just because we haven't labeled them "honor killings" doesn't make them any different.  Where's your outrage?
Murderers in the USA are prosecuted. If I was a leader of the community of the American honor killers, or a politician able to effect laws, and remained quiet, then your point wouldn't be quite so silly.


ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
And what about so-called "dowry deaths" in India?  It's a very similar problem.  I don't hear the complaints about those.
Feel free to post an article and start the discussion.

Ya know, you've been suspiciously quiet about children dying from abuse and neglect? Hmmmm.... :rolleyes:


ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
It's pretty obvious that certain people just don't like Muslims and that's why they are being singled out.  I'm certainly not defending anyone - Muslim or otherwise - who commits honor killings of any sort, but the pervasive all-inclusive finger-pointing at Muslims collectively is shameful and sad.
Yeah, those bigoted meanies at the United Nations should be ashamed of themselves!

From a UN report,
Quote:
 
Today, honor killings are prevalent mostly among Muslim populations.

How dare they!

Of course, ome people, in order to be offended and continue the argument, will read that statement as,
Quote:
 
Today, most muslims are honor killers.
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whitestar
Member Avatar
Captain
the thread has been critizised rightly for pre-judgement of innocence or guilt of the father of murdered daughters but I do not understand the hostility at the mention of honour killings being prevalent among multiple muslim nations. Whatever else the human race delves out to each other (estranged parents taking siblings in suicide deaths, ex-lover killings and all other manner of senseless loss of life) this one in particular IS ingrained in many muslim cultures. Whether or not it is religion based is neither here nor there, it IS never the less a fact, it IS a custom ingrained into culture of some societies and that fact makes it far more horrendous than the abhorent and abnormal behaviour of passion killings in our own societies, why are some here so hostile to the mention of it's existance and denying it's prevalence.
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Minuet
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RTW
Jan 11 2008, 10:49 PM
ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
Let's see, the title of the source for your post is "Middle East Forum - Promoting American Interests".  Wow, that sounds unbiased now doesn't it.
Now you're doing impressions of (you know who) too? Are the statements incorrect? Argue the statements/facts, not the source. There were over 100,000 hits on my google search. I just picked to first few to read.


ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
What that article overlooks (and apparently you as well)...
Oh great, now you're doing impressions of (you know who) too?

Who is he doing impressions of?

Gee for someone who complains about other people and insults this sounds an awful lot like an insult. And an excuse to avoid discussing the issues raised. :rolleyes:

The question is not whether the statements are incorrect. The question is whether or not the number of honour murders comitted pales beside the number of women and children killed by abusive spouses and parents. You continually avoid answering this question, I suspect because the answer is embarassing to you.

No one is saying that honour murders are not horrific. What we ask and continue to ask is why do you expect innocent people who had nothing to do with the murders to go out of thier way and speak out against these murders. You don't expect it from anyone but Muslims and you still don't explain why?

Quote:
 

ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
...is that it is the government of Jordan that allows these honor killings, not Islam.  As such, it is not a "Muslim" issue, but a Jordanian one.
I was just looking to see how/if "honor killers" were prosecuted. You found many examples of governments being against honor killings, but no examples of honor killers being punished.

As far as governments vs religion, I go back to this question from way back on the third page:
Quote:
 
Are they cultural and not religious? Can the two be separated in such a devoutly religious culture?


How long have these countries been Islamic theocracies, and, if honor killings are against Islam, why are they commonplace compared to the rest of the world?


I was under the impression that this discussion was about a murder that took place in the United States. Your reasoning is at fault because this is something that occured in the US - and is going to prosecuted in the US. You are asking AMERICANS who happen to be Muslim to speak out against this atrocity as if they were all guilty. Proving that a government is another country does not prosecute these crimes is a moot point.

Quote:
 
ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
...The fact is the Koran and Sharia make no mention of honor killings and condemn murder.
Great words, now we just need some examples of actions to fit those words. Condemning murder AND murderers.


You contradict yourself here. You have consistently maintained that Americans do condemn murder and murders. So why are you asking an ethnic minority to make extra statements. Are they not American? You have yet to prove collective guilt of any kind. Why do they not get the benefit of the doubt you give "regular" Americans. Not to mention that this is all based on a falsehood anyways since I have shown that North American Muslims do indeed speak out.

Quote:
 
ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
...I noticed you completely ignored the American statistics of honor killings that Minuet provided.  Why...?
Did she add more to the conversation than the usual insults and personal crusades? Guess I missed them.


Ummmm - so why don't you go back and look? This is nothing but an excuse to avoid the issues raised.

Quote:
 
ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
...Just because we haven't labeled them "honor killings" doesn't make them any different.  Where's your outrage?
Murderers in the USA are prosecuted. If I was a leader of the community of the American honor killers, or a politician able to effect laws, and remained quiet, then your point wouldn't be quite so silly.


:headscratch: Sorry your comments here are completely nonsensical. I asked the question earlier - when was the last time George Bush made a speech about domestic abuse? When was the last time the leader of your place of worship discussed it? The point is not silly. These people are silent all the time. I provided links where Mulsim leaders were NOT silent. You are basing your argument on a false premise.

Quote:
 
ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
And what about so-called "dowry deaths" in India?  It's a very similar problem.  I don't hear the complaints about those.
Feel free to post an article and start the discussion.

Ya know, you've been suspiciously quiet about children dying from abuse and neglect? Hmmmm.... :rolleyes:


:doh: My entire point is that women and children die of abuse and neglect in the United States every single day. You made the statement that Americans don't need to speak out because thier outrage is understood to be implicit. Yet you expect Americans to speak out just because they happen to be Muslim.

Ya know - it's YOU that has been suspiciously quiet about children dying from neglect. Instead of criticizing other communities why don't you start with the man in the mirror.

Quote:
 
ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
It's pretty obvious that certain people just don't like Muslims and that's why they are being singled out.  I'm certainly not defending anyone - Muslim or otherwise - who commits honor killings of any sort, but the pervasive all-inclusive finger-pointing at Muslims collectively is shameful and sad.
Yeah, those bigoted meanies at the United Nations should be ashamed of themselves!

From a UN report,
Quote:
 
Today, honor killings are prevalent mostly among Muslim populations.

How dare they!

Of course, ome people, in order to be offended and continue the argument, will read that statement as,
Quote:
 
Today, most muslims are honor killers.


Once again we are not talking about the United Nations or any other country outside of the US. You are asking American citizens of a particular background to apologize for things that A) happen mostly in other countries and B) which they already do speak out about.

Your entire premise is based on a falsehood. You are wrong when you state that Muslim Americans don't speak out. I presented a number of examples to prove my case. It's easy to state that you haven't heard them. But it's silly to continue to state it when the evidence to the contrary has been linked all over this thread.

As for offence. I am simply calling a spade a spade. It seems to me that you are the one who is offended because I have the nerve to speak out and state the truth.

Maybe it's time you stopped being so defensive and instead took a real look at the issue with fresh eyes.
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Minuet
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whitestar
Jan 12 2008, 12:18 AM
the thread has been critizised rightly for pre-judgement of innocence or guilt of the father of murdered daughters but I do not understand the hostility at the mention of honour killings being prevalent among multiple muslim nations. Whatever else the human race delves out to each other  (estranged parents taking siblings in suicide deaths, ex-lover killings and all other manner of senseless loss of life) this one in particular IS ingrained in many muslim cultures. Whether or not it is religion based is neither here nor there, it IS never the less a fact, it IS a custom ingrained into culture of some societies and that fact makes it far more horrendous than the abhorent and abnormal behaviour of passion killings in our own societies, why are some here so hostile to the mention of it's existance and denying it's prevalence.

I know this thread is long. But it is obvious from your statements here that you have not read it all.

You are completely wrong in your assumptions about what the hostility is about. Before making such incorrect statements it would be adviseable (and courteous) to actually read the thread.

Edit - and I wish to add that one of the major points is that it is not as prevalent as people would like you to believe. Honour murders are horrible. But they are only part of an overall problem of spousal and child abuse and taken as such are actually less prevalent then other excuses that men (mostly men) use to control women. Instead of looking at honour deaths alone we need to look at the overall death rate of women and children at the hands of thier spouses/fathers. I have yet to see any statistic that proves that Muslim men kill more often then other group of people. This was an American murder and as such it is wrong to point fingers at Muslims as it ignores the overall problem of spousal and child abuse in the US as a whole.
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
RTW
Jan 11 2008, 10:49 PM
ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
Let's see, the title of the source for your post is "Middle East Forum - Promoting American Interests".  Wow, that sounds unbiased now doesn't it.
Now you're doing impressions of (you know who) too? Are the statements incorrect? Argue the statements/facts, not the source. There were over 100,000 hits on my google search. I just picked to first few to read.

Considering the validity of the source is important and can make all the difference. If I presented Hitler's statements to you as evidence of the supposed "inferiority" of Jews, would you passively accept it or would you point out the ridiculousness of the source...? Sorry if you don't like it, but since many Americans hold such obvious prejudice against Muslims, it seems pretty apparent that a source with "Promoting American Interests" in its title should be approached with skepticism. And frankly, your unwillingness or inability to recognize that fact says something about your own bias on the subject.

Quote:
 
ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
What that article overlooks (and apparently you as well)...
Oh great, now you're doing impressions of (you know who) too?
No I don't know who and this is pathetic. Do you have an actual argument to present...? :rolleyes:

Quote:
 
ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
...is that it is the government of Jordan that allows these honor killings, not Islam.  As such, it is not a "Muslim" issue, but a Jordanian one.
I was just looking to see how/if "honor killers" were prosecuted. You found many examples of governments being against honor killings, but no examples of honor killers being punished.

As far as governments vs religion, I go back to this question from way back on the third page:
Quote:
 
Are they cultural and not religious? Can the two be separated in such a devoutly religious culture?


How long have these countries been Islamic theocracies, and, if honor killings are against Islam, why are they commonplace compared to the rest of the world?
For the same reason that they are commonplace in the USA among Americans. Not everyone in a country cares about religion. INDIVIDUALS will do what they will do... And they aren't commonplace in EVERY Muslim country - a point you keep ignoring.

Quote:
 
ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
...The fact is the Koran and Sharia make no mention of honor killings and condemn murder.
Great words, now we just need some examples of actions to fit those words. Condemning murder AND murderers.
We...? :rolleyes: No, I don't need them. I'm already quite aware of them. If you aren't, then you aren't looking very hard. By the way, why AREN'T you looking very hard...? :whistle:

Quote:
 
ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
...I noticed you completely ignored the American statistics of honor killings that Minuet provided.  Why...?
Did she add more to the conversation than the usual insults and personal crusades? Guess I missed them.
Yes she did and no you didn't. You simply ignored her point like you're doing again now. What's the matter? No answer?

Quote:
 
ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
...Just because we haven't labeled them "honor killings" doesn't make them any different.  Where's your outrage?
Murderers in the USA are prosecuted. If I was a leader of the community of the American honor killers, or a politician able to effect laws, and remained quiet, then your point wouldn't be quite so silly.
:rotfl: Wow, not only do you see what's not there with Muslim leaders, but you see what's not there with American leaders too. In fact, in the midst of this election year, please tell me which one presidential candidate has spousal murders on their list of priorities that they want to deal with? If it's such an important issue and our leaders don't remain quiet about it, surely you can find at least one...

Quote:
 
ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
And what about so-called "dowry deaths" in India?  It's a very similar problem.  I don't hear the complaints about those.
Feel free to post an article and start the discussion.
Hmm. Let me rephrase your answer. "It's not important enough to me, but if you want to discuss it, feel free. I only care about Muslims." Thanks for proving my point! :thmup:

Quote:
 
Ya know, you've been suspiciously quiet about children dying from abuse and neglect? Hmmmm....  :rolleyes:
And I'm not pointing any fingers at one group while ignoring others with the same problems. :chin:

Quote:
 
ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
It's pretty obvious that certain people just don't like Muslims and that's why they are being singled out.  I'm certainly not defending anyone - Muslim or otherwise - who commits honor killings of any sort, but the pervasive all-inclusive finger-pointing at Muslims collectively is shameful and sad.
Yeah, those bigoted meanies at the United Nations should be ashamed of themselves!

From a UN report,
Quote:
 
Today, honor killings are prevalent mostly among Muslim populations.

How dare they!
Since you didn't bother to link to that report, I don't have a context within which to reply to this point. However, if it's exactly as you have presented it, I have no problem agreeing that they are out of line. There are MANY populations with honor killings. To say it happens mostly in Muslim populations is just plain inaccurate.
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
whitestar
Jan 12 2008, 12:18 AM
the thread has been critizised rightly for pre-judgement of innocence or guilt of the father of murdered daughters but I do not understand the hostility at the mention of honour killings being prevalent among multiple muslim nations. Whatever else the human race delves out to each other  (estranged parents taking siblings in suicide deaths, ex-lover killings and all other manner of senseless loss of life) this one in particular IS ingrained in many muslim cultures. Whether or not it is religion based is neither here nor there, it IS never the less a fact, it IS a custom ingrained into culture of some societies and that fact makes it far more horrendous than the abhorent and abnormal behaviour of passion killings in our own societies, why are some here so hostile to the mention of it's existance and denying it's prevalence.

This pretty much sums it up for me:

8247
Jan 7 2008, 02:11 PM
STC
Jan 7 2008, 01:44 PM
What interests me more is why people feel the need to post these stories? We all know about honour killings. We all think they are horrific. We all think that killing is horrific - period (someone please correct me if I've made an incorrect assumption about you :) ).

Why do I keep posting these stories?

Because at least once a month, I hear someone saying that Islam is a religion of peace, and how dare we generalize.

But, what I don't hear is Muslims condemning these actions, or the actions of terrorists.
8247 is not alone in this opinion. I quoted him because it's representative of why I'm taking issue with what has been said by some in this thread. Overgeneralization is a problem as is ignoring the condemnations by Muslims that have in fact occurred.

On the other hand, you just said:
Quote:
 
I do not understand the hostility at the mention of honour killings being prevalent among multiple muslim nations
That is at least a step better than what I've been hearing because you at least said "multiple Muslim nations" and not simply "Muslims". But, going one step further, I'm asking why Muslims are being singled out. There are many populations of people with a high occurrence of spouses - most predominantly wives - being killed because they are viewed as having disgraced the family in some way (sexual promiscuity, not having enough wealth, not living up to some expected servitude, etc.), but all we are hearing complaints about are Muslims. I'm arguing that this reflects a broader hostility - or more specifically, bigotry - toward Muslims in particular and not simply a concern about honor killings. Honor killings has just become something that these people latch onto in order to express that hostility which is there anyway. I also believe that most of the people who have this attitude don't see themselves as bigoted at all which makes it all the more important to expose.
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RTW
Member Avatar
Vice Admiral
ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
Considering the validity of the source is important and can make all the difference.  If I presented Hitler's statements to you as evidence of the supposed "inferiority" of Jews, would you passively accept it or would you point out the ridiculousness of the source...?
Opinions vs events/facts. Apples and oranges.

Are the facts they present incorrect? Yes or no.


ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
And frankly, your unwillingness or inability to recognize that fact says something about your own bias on the subject.
And your ability to differentiate between facts and opinions?


ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
Quote:
 
ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
What that article overlooks (and apparently you as well)...
Oh great, now you're doing impressions of (you know who) too?
No I don't know who and this is pathetic.
I agree, the derisive little comments are unnecessary and pathetic.

RTW
 
I was just looking to see how/if "honor killers" were prosecuted.  You found many examples of governments being against honor killings, but no examples of honor killers being punished.
:shrug:


ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
RTW
 
How long have these countries been Islamic theocracies, and, if honor killings are against Islam, why are they commonplace compared to the rest of the world?
For the same reason that they are commonplace in the USA among Americans.
Honor killings are commonplace in the USA among Americans?

UN
 
...honor killings are prevalent mostly among Muslim populations.



ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
Not everyone in a country cares about religion.
Do you really believe that Americans as a whole are as religiously fervent/observant as the population of most (any?) Islamic country?


ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
And they aren't commonplace in EVERY Muslim country - a point you keep ignoring.
No, it's a point that was never stated yet you keep arguing.

I'm saying, for example, "most pro basketball players are tall," but you're hearing, "most tall people are pro-basketball players."


ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
Quote:
 
Great words, now we just need some examples of actions to fit those words.  Condemning murder AND murderers.
No, I don't need them. I'm already quite aware of them.
Yes, wholey based on information you're not sharing OR a strong sense of political correctness. You have yet to cite a single example of the perpretrator of an honor killing in a muslim country receiving a harsh punishment. I cited laws to the contrary from two separate sources.


ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
To say it happens mostly in Muslim populations is just plain inaccurate.
Based on?
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Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 03:53 PM
whitestar
Jan 12 2008, 12:18 AM
the thread has been critizised rightly for pre-judgement of innocence or guilt of the father of murdered daughters but I do not understand the hostility at the mention of honour killings being prevalent among multiple muslim nations. Whatever else the human race delves out to each other  (estranged parents taking siblings in suicide deaths, ex-lover killings and all other manner of senseless loss of life) this one in particular IS ingrained in many muslim cultures. Whether or not it is religion based is neither here nor there, it IS never the less a fact, it IS a custom ingrained into culture of some societies and that fact makes it far more horrendous than the abhorent and abnormal behaviour of passion killings in our own societies, why are some here so hostile to the mention of it's existance and denying it's prevalence.

This pretty much sums it up for me:

8247
Jan 7 2008, 02:11 PM
STC
Jan 7 2008, 01:44 PM
What interests me more is why people feel the need to post these stories? We all know about honour killings. We all think they are horrific. We all think that killing is horrific - period (someone please correct me if I've made an incorrect assumption about you :) ).

Why do I keep posting these stories?

Because at least once a month, I hear someone saying that Islam is a religion of peace, and how dare we generalize.

But, what I don't hear is Muslims condemning these actions, or the actions of terrorists.
8247 is not alone in this opinion. I quoted him because it's representative of why I'm taking issue with what has been said by some in this thread. Overgeneralization is a problem as is ignoring the condemnations by Muslims that have in fact occurred.

On the other hand, you just said:
Quote:
 
I do not understand the hostility at the mention of honour killings being prevalent among multiple muslim nations
That is at least a step better than what I've been hearing because you at least said "multiple Muslim nations" and not simply "Muslims". But, going one step further, I'm asking why Muslims are being singled out. There are many populations of people with a high occurrence of spouses - most predominantly wives - being killed because they are viewed as having disgraced the family in some way (sexual promiscuity, not having enough wealth, not living up to some expected servitude, etc.), but all we are hearing complaints about are Muslims. I'm arguing that this reflects a broader hostility - or more specifically, bigotry - toward Muslims in particular and not simply a concern about honor killings. Honor killings has just become something that these people latch onto in order to express that hostility which is there anyway. I also believe that most of the people who have this attitude don't see themselves as bigoted at all which makes it all the more important to expose.

I wish to add to that my point that this started with a murder in the US - not in a Muslim country. I think that singling out Muslims to criticize while ignoring the fact that 3 women a DAY are killed by domestic violence in the US is unreasonable.

Domestic violence as a whole is a terrible problem in our society and pointing fingers at a group of people in the US who actually engage in it in what appears to be smaller numbers then the rest of the population is unfair and prejudicial.

Let's talk about the real problem which kills thousands of women each year, including the girl I mentioned earlier, Iliada Zois, instead of tearing out our hair over only a tiny portion of those women.
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Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
RTW
Jan 12 2008, 07:38 PM
ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
Considering the validity of the source is important and can make all the difference.  If I presented Hitler's statements to you as evidence of the supposed "inferiority" of Jews, would you passively accept it or would you point out the ridiculousness of the source...?
Opinions vs events/facts. Apples and oranges.

Are the facts they present incorrect? Yes or no.


ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
And frankly, your unwillingness or inability to recognize that fact says something about your own bias on the subject.
And your ability to differentiate between facts and opinions?


ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
Quote:
 
ImpulseEngine
Jan 11 2008, 05:40 PM
What that article overlooks (and apparently you as well)...
Oh great, now you're doing impressions of (you know who) too?
No I don't know who and this is pathetic.
I agree, the derisive little comments are unnecessary and pathetic.

RTW
 
I was just looking to see how/if "honor killers" were prosecuted.  You found many examples of governments being against honor killings, but no examples of honor killers being punished.
:shrug:


ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
RTW
 
How long have these countries been Islamic theocracies, and, if honor killings are against Islam, why are they commonplace compared to the rest of the world?
For the same reason that they are commonplace in the USA among Americans.
Honor killings are commonplace in the USA among Americans?

UN
 
...honor killings are prevalent mostly among Muslim populations.



ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
Not everyone in a country cares about religion.
Do you really believe that Americans as a whole are as religiously fervent/observant as the population of most (any?) Islamic country?


ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
And they aren't commonplace in EVERY Muslim country - a point you keep ignoring.
No, it's a point that was never stated yet you keep arguing.

I'm saying, for example, "most pro basketball players are tall," but you're hearing, "most tall people are pro-basketball players."


ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
Quote:
 
Great words, now we just need some examples of actions to fit those words.  Condemning murder AND murderers.
No, I don't need them. I'm already quite aware of them.
Yes, wholey based on information you're not sharing OR a strong sense of political correctness. You have yet to cite a single example of the perpretrator of an honor killing in a muslim country receiving a harsh punishment. I cited laws to the contrary from two separate sources.


ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
To say it happens mostly in Muslim populations is just plain inaccurate.
Based on?

You still haven't explained why it is so important for AMERICAN MUSLIMS to speak out against this issue when AMERICANS in general do not have say a word about domestic violence.

Statements were made earlier in this thread. You are trying to deflect the discussion by continuing to rant about Muslim countries and ignoring the fact that this was an AMERICAN murder and as such is an AMERICAN issue, not a foreign one.

Quote:
 

I'm saying, for example, "most pro basketball players are tall," but you're hearing, "most tall people are pro-basketball players."


No one here has said that and no one has accused you of saying it. This is another one of your weak attempts to avoid the issues presented. I don't know if you are just stubborn or if you have a real problem in understanding the words printed on the screen in front of you. I highly suggest that you reread the thread and consider the actual issues presented instead of making flat out lies about what others are saying.
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
RTW
Jan 12 2008, 07:38 PM
ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
Considering the validity of the source is important and can make all the difference.  If I presented Hitler's statements to you as evidence of the supposed "inferiority" of Jews, would you passively accept it or would you point out the ridiculousness of the source...?
Opinions vs events/facts. Apples and oranges.

Are the facts they present incorrect? Yes or no.

That's the wrong question. If I present an article showing you a group of Americans that favor gay marriage, that would be factually correct. However, if I then use that article to say therefore Americans favor gay marriage, that would not be correct. Plenty of Americans don't. So the proper question is not whether the facts are correct, but whether the article supports the point that you are trying to make - that Muslims (not just Jordanians) need to publicly condemn honor killings and punish those who are guilty of it. Your source talks about Jordanians, not Muslims. And your source has an agenda that is written right in it's title that makes me question whether that article, even with its limited focus, is factually correct.


** skipping a couple of things here that are just silly tangents :rolleyes: **

Quote:
 
RTW
 
I was just looking to see how/if "honor killers" were prosecuted.  You found many examples of governments being against honor killings, but no examples of honor killers being punished.
:shrug:
I also listed Muslim countries where honor killings don't happen. You can't punish what isn't happening. As for the countries where it is happening, if that's what you're interested in, then admit we're discussing those countries (including the US) and not Muslims and we can discuss punishments.

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ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
RTW
 
How long have these countries been Islamic theocracies, and, if honor killings are against Islam, why are they commonplace compared to the rest of the world?
For the same reason that they are commonplace in the USA among Americans.
Honor killings are commonplace in the USA among Americans?
Yes. Same heinous crime, different title. Spouse abuse and spouse murders are quite common. Don't tell me you weren't aware of that...? :ermm:

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UN
 
...honor killings are prevalent mostly among Muslim populations.
I have no idea why you quoted this again :headscratch: and I already replied about it.

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ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
Not everyone in a country cares about religion.
Do you really believe that Americans as a whole are as religiously fervent/observant as the population of most (any?) Islamic country?
My point was those who don't follow their religion very closely in EITHER country won't be influenced by it. It is not Islam that influences honor killings for Muslims, but a lack of following it...

Quote:
 
ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
And they aren't commonplace in EVERY Muslim country - a point you keep ignoring.
No, it's a point that was never stated yet you keep arguing.

I'm saying, for example, "most pro basketball players are tall," but you're hearing, "most tall people are pro-basketball players."
So, if I've missed your point then here's your opportunity to set me straight: Please spell out then just what your point is (although I disagree that I'm hearing what you claim I'm hearing, but that's irrelevant if you spell out now what point you're trying to make).

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ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
Quote:
 
Great words, now we just need some examples of actions to fit those words.  Condemning murder AND murderers.
No, I don't need them. I'm already quite aware of them.
Yes, wholey based on information you're not sharing OR a strong sense of political correctness. You have yet to cite a single example of the perpretrator of an honor killing in a muslim country receiving a harsh punishment. I cited laws to the contrary from two separate sources.
As I said above, when you're willing to admit we're talking about a lot more people than just Muslims - including Americans, I'll be willing to discuss punishments. And punishments are the only "actions" that fit the words. Laws (religious as well as legislative), teachings, and public condemnations fit too.

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ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
To say it happens mostly in Muslim populations is just plain inaccurate.
Based on?
Again, honor killings by any other name is still honor killings. It happens in many countries including our own.
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RTW
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ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 08:23 PM
That's the wrong question.
I cited the first examples I found. I even labeled them "from Jordan". Rather than stating that they don't apply to the entire muslim religion, a statement which nobody made, why not find some examples to the contrary?

ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 08:23 PM
** skipping a couple of things here that are just silly tangents :rolleyes: **
I did the same thing - the only difference being that I had the maturity just to delete them and move on. I felt no need to make an infantile comment. It's almost as if she is scripting your anwers for you.


ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 08:23 PM
I also listed Muslim countries where honor killings don't happen.
That doesn't change the UN's perception that honor killings are most prevalent among muslim populations.


ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 08:23 PM
You can't punish what isn't happening.  As for the countries where it is happening, if that's what you're interested in, then admit we're discussing those countries (including the US) and not Muslims and we can discuss punishments.
The topic of this thread is a muslim man who looks to have committed an honor killing. You're determined to only discuss countries where honor killings don't happen.


ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
Same heinous crime, different title.  Spouse abuse and spouse murders are quite common.
Entirely different motive 99% of the time. Apples and oranges.

All honor killings are murders. Not all murders are honor killings. Different motive, same result.

ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
My point was those who don't follow their religion very closely in EITHER country won't be influenced by it.  It is not Islam that influences honor killings for Muslims, but a lack of following it...
There's the culture vs religion question again.
(Great point stated in a mature manner, by the way. Thank you.)


ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 08:23 PM
Quote:
 
ImpulseEngine
Jan 12 2008, 01:35 PM
And they aren't commonplace in EVERY Muslim country - a point you keep ignoring.
No, it's a point that was never stated yet you keep arguing.

I'm saying, for example, "most pro basketball players are tall," but you're hearing, "most tall people are pro-basketball players."
So, if I've missed your point then here's your opportunity to set me straight: Please spell out then just what your point is (although I disagree that I'm hearing what you claim I'm hearing, but that's irrelevant if you spell out now what point you're trying to make).
Stated: Honor killings, murders to preserve family honor, are most prevalent in muslim populations.

Not stated: Honor killings are prevalent in all muslim populations.
Not stated: Honor killings only occur in muslim populations.
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Wichita
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OK, I have been reading this thread intermittently but not completely.

After reading the last page, I thought it wise to go back and read the whole thing again so some of my responses will be going back some pages.

Somerled
 
I know in Texas this is the possible penalty unless he is wealthy or well connected (to the house of Suid say). It is more likely if he isn't already dead or hasn't fled the country , he'll be killed while being apprehended I expect based on what I have heard of law enforcement in the USA and Texas in particular.


A lot of posters spoke up to condemn these words for what they were and I appreciate that.

What I find interesting is that later on in this thread someone asks why it is important that we discuss certain issues when we all know they are wrong already. Would that same sentiment not apply to what Somerled said? I'm just curious.

Another question that I am curious about .... if the family were NOT Muslim would anybody be suggesting that there was no reason to discuss the story? Or that disucssing the story was some type of "evidence" of bigotry?

ImpusleEngine
 
What I find disgusting is the presumption of guilt because he's a Muslim who possibly doesn't like Americans; not him being a suspect or even a primary suspect. I admit the situation looks highly suspicious, but that doesn't automatically make him guilty or anti-American.


I agree with you about the presumption of innocence. We don't *KNOW* that he did it. All we KNOW - IMO - is that he makes a reasonable suspect based on the circumstances of their deaths and some second hand reports from the girls's friends.

I don't think anyone was claiming that he was anti-American however. For the last decade or so we have been hearing about hatred of the "American lifestyle" - which is what I think people were saying the guy really hated, not America itself. In UK, they would probably call the same behavior "British lifestyle". A certain age group tends to behave in a certain way. The older folks in their communities tend to condem it. I don't think if relates to a specific country. "American" was used here just because the killings took place in the US.

Edit: I see later on, Impulse Engine, that you referred to "lifestyle" as well so I will assume that is what you meant.

Minuet
 
I ask because I just tried to find letters to the editor online for several large newspapers - The Houston Chronicle (since it is in Texas and I am familiar with it) The Washington Times (the source of your article) and the New York Times (It's just big and well known  ) I couldn't find much in the way of letters to the editor shown online.


I wouldn't base any opinion on the presence or lack of letters to the editor in US papers.

A few years back, some controversy erupted about a Girl Scout Council that I was working for at the time. I don't remember the specifics now (never thought that would happen - it consumed us at the time :lol: ).

A letter extremely critical of the organization and accusing us of some things that were untrue was printed. Our leaders reacted with outrage and many sent in their own responses. The newspaper posted NONE of the responses. They eventually printed only two - the response from the (then) current and former Council directors. But, that's not all - they allowed the original author to see those responses and write another letter to rebut them and posted all three at the same time.

Remember I said "eventually"? The paper held all the letters for weeks and then "coincidentally" posted them on the morning that we were kicking off a major initiative and having an open house at our facility.

That wasn't just the reaction of a small town paper. The NYT has allowed some former military to write letter condemming tactics in Irag and Afghanistan, but refused to allow letters supportive of them. Recently, someone who posts as "a disgruntled Republican" was outed as a Democratic fundraiser- he had gotten something like 30 letters printed in the NYT. Few people see even one posted.
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Wichita
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Minuet
 
Why should the Muslim living next door to you or I apologize for the actions of a man living thousands of miles away who is doing atrocities that they do not participate in?


Absolutely agree.

Thank goodness no one ever demands that I, as an American, apologize for the actions of one man or woman who may have done atrocities that I did not participate in.

;) ;)

Edit: Yes, I was being sarcastic.)

Minuet
 
If Islam is to be blamed for these acts then all Christianity should be blamed for what happened at Waco with the Branch Davidians.


I am very familiar with the details of Waco and the Branch Dividians and I have no idea what you are referring to in this comment.

:headscratch:

Was there a trial that I missed?

Minuet
 
It does seem to me that those who constantly make the claim that Muslims don't condemn these acts are the people who have been quite open about thier own right wing biases and thier admirations for certain networks, commentators and shows. Maybe you guys are not getting the full picture because you reject those shows that you find left wing? You are missing half the picture when you do that.


I would disagree. The left wing press is no less (or more) biased than the right-wing press - just about differently things.

I read a lot of conservative sites and papers and Muslims who speak out are lauded as heroes. Heck, the other day, I even saw Bill Clinton applauded on a number of right wing sites for telling a 9-11 truther that he was full of it.

Franko
 
Killing your only children is a psychotic and insane act. It's evident that (if in fact the father is guilty) this guy was likely the typical profile: Depression disorders, a frustrating life that seems aimless; and above all, a control freak. I doubt that he got the idea of snuffing his daughters from something he read in the Koran one day. This kind of atrocity is the act of someone who hates themselves, their life, their family, and the world.


I would agree with that.

Think about your own lives. Look to the person/persons who have the most influence on you whether it would be spouse, parent, work, religous institution, whatever.

Are there any circumstances under which they could convince you to kill your children for any reason?

I can't imagine one myself.

Minuet
 
I just found another article that makes some very good points. Once again it refers to the case that happened here in Toronto. I haven't got a clue why there is less to be found about the case in Texas.


I didn't post the whole - fairly inaccurate and bigoted - article that you posted here.

Minuet, I AGREE that you should not judge an entire culture or religion by the acts of a few.

However, your posting of bigoted articles about Christianity does ZERO to help your case. You doing the same thing that you are criticizing others for doing.

:no: :no:

Minuet
 
He was from a Christian background. The crime was just as horrific as the honour murders. Who cares if the guy claims he was dishonoured by the person's behaviour or if the murder was done to keep a wife from leaving.


Ok, now this comment makes sense and isn't inherently prejudicial.

Christian men and women do kill their families. I have no doubt that you can substitue any religion, lack of relition, or nationality into that sentence. I can't think of a culture where it never happens.

However, there IS A DIFFERENCE between someone claiming the murder was justified for "dishonor" reasons and murders for other reasons. Making the claim is an attempt to justify the murders as acceptable. If people accept that reason as acceptable, the situation will never change.

Remember it was only a few years ago that a local community council (in Packistan, I think) that thought it was perfectly reasonable for them to decide that they should gang rape a young woman because her brother was supposedly seen talking to a woman from a different caste. Can you even imagine the mindset that made that suggestion seem reasonable to discuss let alone carry out as they did?

That mindset is what needs to be stamped out and that can only be done by bringing it to light. In that instance, the local laws and religion didn't support it either - just like the Bible doesn't condone Chrisitans killing willy-nilly or the Koran doesn't approve honor killings.

ALL the circumstances of religion being used as an excuse should be brought to light regardless of race, creed or culture. That provides an opportunity for the people who really know that the religion does not permit the killing to say again that the religion does not justify the killing. The wider the message is disseminated the better.
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Wichita
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Minuet
 
And unless we stop playing the "we are superior" game and start facing the real issues behind domestic violence then it won't ever end.


You contradicted yourself in the same sentence.

One of the "real issues" behind domestic violence is that some people use religion/cultural as a reason to justify it. Pretending that it isn't the cases will not solve the problem.

And do not assume that I think that only one culture practices honor killings.

When I lived in Rochester, a young woman was murdered in Florida by her estranged husband. She had fled to Florida to get away from him.

His murder of her was domestic violence pure and simple.

However, he did not have the means to get to Florida nor did he know where to find her. HER FAMILY (from Rochester) was the ones who told him and who helped him fix his car and pay for the repairs - despite her pleas that they keep her secret.

The family's participation in the murder was based on cultural (and potentially religious) issues. They were Hispanic.

They would have benefited from the education about what their culture (and religion) really believes. They said that they didn't think the guy would kill her, but they knew that he had been violent before and still thought she should try to work things out despite what she said.

Tangent:

Minuet
 
Maybe you should let RTW answer the question himself. I based the question on the inferences made throughout the entire thread that Muslims do not condemn these acts. If I am wrong then let him explain his comments more fully himself.


Good luck with that. :lol:

I've made the same request to allow the person I've questioned to respond for himself/herself many times and have been ignored far more often than it is granted. (Actually, I rarely ever get my wish granted. :no2:)

Back on-topic:

Minuet
 
When was the last time the leader of your place of worship discussed it? The point is not silly. These people are silent all the time.


Nothing more than an assumption. :no:

Again, you don't do your argument any good by making unsubstantiated assumptions about other faiths and cultures.

FYI, the last two wards I have attended have the Domestic Violence Shelter as their on-going, perpetual community project. (Other projects are done seasonally.) As to how Mormon men should treat their wives and children (and women treat their husbands and children) - I won't claim weekly, but darn close.

As to President Bush - well, I am not in the mood to GOOGLE his speeches, but I will go out on a limb and say a major speech is done at least once a year (State of the Union). How does that compare to the leader of other coutnries?

Minuet
 
You still haven't explained why it is so important for AMERICAN MUSLIMS to speak out against this issue when AMERICANS in general do not have say a word about domestic violence.


Which, of course, will come as a great surprise to the millions of Americans who support their local domestic violence shelters, see the information sent to them through United Way (regardless if they give to United Way or not) or hear the domestic violence shelter reps speak on their local TV and radio stations (just to name a few instances).


:headscratch:

:shrug:

Again, not helping your arguement .....
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Data's Cat's Sister
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On the subject of the media, there are several sources that I like to read but I take all of them with a pinch of salt, even the BBC which is one of my most trusted sources.

Sometimes they present a story with bias because they have an axe to grind. Sometimes they do it because they choose to report the more sensational and 'sexy' facts and this distorts the story. But whatever the reason there is no source which can be completely bias free.

As to this particular topic I think it was perfectly reasonable that the man in question became the chief suspect. Statistically if you are murdered the perpatrator is more then likely to be a family member or someone you know so I don't think it is unreasonable of us to assume that this man had something to do with it. The fact that the victims were found in his car and that he is now missing makes the father seem more suspicious.

However I do think it is sad when horrific incidents like this cause us to become suspicious of each other or to describe Islam as a religion of violence and assume all Muslims will be similarly violent.

I believe that the voice of reasonable Muslims is often not heard, particularly when they condemn such acts because it just doesn't get reported. I think the same often goes for Christians too. A rediculous amount of air time (here in Britain) has been devoted to that small group of about 30 people in America who were holding protests outside the funerals of soliders who had died in Iraq. I apologise that I can't remember the name of the group. Now I'm not saying it shouldn't have made the news but since the story broke there have been countless reports and two seperate hour long documentaries.

Why has so much air time been given to a tiny tiny tiny group of Christians that doesn't remotely represent Christianity as a whole here in Britain, which is after all a Christian nation? Sure we have Songs of Praise on a Sunday and one general religious issues programme but nothing which really represents Christianity today. So Christianity is seen through the eyes of the fundamentalist because its more interesting and gets more viewers I suppose! Run of the mill Christians don't have a hope of getting their opinions across.

I fear that this kind of fingerpointing and misinformation where entire cultures are held responsible for the extreme acts of one person leads to an atmosphere of mistrust between us. Living in multicultural city, I find this very disturbing.

Fortunately our Government is trying to take steps to counter this.

Quote:
 
Building stronger communities through inter faith dialogue and interaction
Published 17 December 2007

Communities Secretary Hazel Blears is today launching a consultation into how Government can best support faith communities' engagement with one another and with their local communities.

There is a long history of people from different faith communities in this country working together to build understanding and provide vital services often to the most vulnerable. The consultation "Face-to-Face and Side-by-Side" looks at the work that is already underway and considers what support might be given to facilitate greater inter faith dialogue and inter faith activity in order that faith groups can continue to make a positive difference within the wider community.

Communities Secretary Hazel Blears and Cohesion Minister Parmjit Dhanda will be joined at the consultation launch by a wide range of faith group leaders including the Archbishop of Canterbury Dr Rowan Williams.

Over two hundred representatives from faith communities, inter faith organisations, Chief Executives of local councils and other relevant organisations will be in attendance.

The government's vision for Britain is one of strong, confident communities where people of all different backgrounds get on well together.

In recent years there has been an increase in dialogue between different faith communities which has helped break down barriers, build understanding and strengthen relationships.

This has also led to the more faith groups working together for the benefit of the wider community in a variety of ways. This social action or 'active faith' has seen communities putting into practice their beliefs to enrich and benefit wider society whilst public authorities have increasingly recognised the role of faith communities and organisations in partnership working and policy delivery.

Positive examples such as the Building Bridges Pendle project, utilising innovative approaches to promoting integration and cohesion through inter faith education in primary and secondary schools, or the Fusion Youth Project in West Midlands, which enables young women of different faiths to access information and develop skills so that they are empowered to help themselves, demonstrate the very real, positive contribution such collaborative efforts can and do make.

The consultation is part of the Government's response to the independent Commission on Integration and Cohesion's report Our Shared Future which set out a number of practical recommendations on how to build cohesion and a shared sense of belonging including confirming the important role that inter faith activity has to play in building integration and cohesion, as well as the need for more constructive conversations between those of faith and those of none.

In response Hazel Blears set out a ten point action plan to promote cohesion and tackle community tensions including a commitment to develop a new inter faith strategy.

The consultation will look to discover what is needed to widen and deepen inter faith dialogue and social action. In particular it will seek to:

Understand how to best build confidence in the benefits of partnership working and develop a greater understanding of the contribution that faith communities can make

Discover to what extent local authorities and other public bodies are already working with faith communities

Understand better the structures which facilitate interaction and social action and how can these be best developed

Learn about some of the barriers to inter faith activity - especially in connection with the involvement of women and young people - and how we might best work together to overcome these

Communities Secretary Hazel Blears said:

"Faith groups are a key part of the way we respond to the challenges we face from building strong resilient communities to tackling anti-social behaviour.

"This consultation provides us with an opportunity to find out how Government can best support dialogue between faith groups and the circumstances in which inter faith activity is helping to make a positive difference to communities around the country.

"That includes looking at how we can build upon the good work already going in communities at local, regional and national level and develop a greater understanding of the contribution faith communities can make.

"By learning how we can all better work in partnership with each other to increase inter-faith dialogue and social action we can ensure that this activity results in tangible and positive change within local communities in terms of increased cohesion, greater community empowerment and resilience to extremism in all its forms."
Link to the above which also contains link to the mentioned document

Ewwww I can't believe I just praised something Labour do. :lol: Oh well.

I don't know if this will work but its got to be better then doing nothing or just finger pointing.

I also have to agree with Min on the statistics about violence against women. Violence against women is appauling, the statistics are horrendous and they have to be changed.

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