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Muslim man in Dallas kills daughters; for acting like Americans
Topic Started: Jan 4 2008, 11:56 AM (2,523 Views)
Minuet
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To put my thoughts into a bit more perspective here are some statistics on overall domestic violence.

http://www.endabuse.org/resources/facts/

Quote:
 
Domestic Homicides

On average, more than three women are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends in this country every day. In 2000, 1,247 women were killed by an intimate partner. The same year, 440 men were killed by an intimate partner.16
Women are much more likely than men to be killed by an intimate partner. In 2000, intimate partner homicides accounted for 33.5 percent of the murders of women and less than four percent of the murders of men.17
Pregnant and recently pregnant women are more likely to be victims of homicide than to die of any other cause18 , and evidence exists that a significant proportion of all female homicide victims are killed by their intimate partners.19
Research suggests that injury related deaths, including homicide and suicide, account for approximately one-third of all maternal mortality cases, while medical reasons make up the rest. But, homicide is the leading cause of death overall for pregnant women, followed by cancer, acute and chronic respiratory conditions, motor vehicle collisions and drug overdose, peripartum and postpartum cardiomyopthy, and suicide.20


Compare that number of 3 murders PER DAY in the US alone to 8247's earlier contention that he hears a new story about ONCE PER MONTH specifically about an incident in the Muslim community. I am not sure but I think that the once per month might include incidences he has heard about outside of the United States.

When was the last time President Bush made a speech about domestic violence? When was the last time you discussed it in your place of worship?
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RTW
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ImpulseEngine
Jan 10 2008, 11:00 AM
But anyway your whole tangent wasn't my point.

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ImpulseEngine
Jan 10 2008, 11:00 AM
My point was no one is asking for American leaders (or leaders of other national, cultural, or religious groups) to publicly denounce these murders like they are asking of Muslim leaders.

Probably because it goes without saying. The overwhelming and widely accepted norm is not news. It's nearly as silly as asking every person you meet if they breath air. :rolleyes:

We know where we stand. Our justice system makes it clear. We get mixed signals about other cultures that we're not as familiar with so we look to "them", not their apologists, for clarification. Apparently we're not getting a consistent clear message directly FROM "THEM". Whether they're sending mixed messages (actions and inactions speak louder than words), our media is not conveying the message, or we're not listening diligently enough - I don't know.
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Minuet
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RTW
Jan 10 2008, 08:24 PM
ImpulseEngine
Jan 10 2008, 11:00 AM
But anyway your whole tangent wasn't my point.

Posted Image

ImpulseEngine
Jan 10 2008, 11:00 AM
My point was no one is asking for American leaders (or leaders of other national, cultural, or religious groups) to publicly denounce these murders like they are asking of Muslim leaders.

Probably because it goes without saying. The overwhelming and widely accepted norm is not news. It's nearly as silly as asking every person you meet if they breath air. :rolleyes:

We know where we stand. Our justice system makes it clear. We get mixed signals about other cultures that we're not as familiar with so we look to "them", not their apologists, for clarification. Apparently we're not getting a consistent clear message directly FROM "THEM". Whether they're sending mixed messages (actions and inactions speak louder than words), our media is not conveying the message, or we're not listening diligently enough - I don't know.

Well Impulse and Dandandat. I guess this answers my question. The two of you were wrong. Obviously RTW does not see those citizens of your country that happen to be Muslim as real Americans.

It's really pathetic and sad to see such open and hostile bigotry. I cannot believe in this day and age that someone could be so ignorant as to not accept that members of ethnic minorities are also "American" and contribute to society as members of police forces or as politicians. They are also judges and they serve on juries.

But because they are Muslim you see them as different and as not sharing in your ethics.

Pathetic.
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RTW
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Minuet
Jan 10 2008, 06:30 PM
Well Impulse and Dandandat. I guess this answers my question. The two of you were wrong. Obviously RTW does not see those citizens of your country that happen to be Muslim as real Americans.

It's really pathetic and sad to see such open and hostile bigotry. I cannot believe in this day and age that someone could be so ignorant as to not accept that members of ethnic minorities are also "American" and contribute to society as members of police forces or as politicians. They are also judges and they serve on juries.

But because they are Muslim you see them as different and as not sharing in your ethics.

Pathetic.

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It's almost as if you're pasting the same response in multiple threads regardless of the content of the posts you're responding to!
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Minuet
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I fail to see what is amusing.

Both Dandandat and ImpulseEngine tried to give you the benefit of the doubt with regards to the question I asked you about whether you saw Mulsims who were citizens as not being American.

I asked both to let you respond. Your response above makes your viewpoint quite clear. You feel American sentiment goes without saying. Yet you feel Muslims must go the extra step and say something. That says to me that you don't see Muslims who are US citizens as American.

Would you say the same thing about Blacks? Or about Jews? What makes it ok to see Muslim citizens of your country as not being just as American as everyone else?
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RTW
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Minuet
Jan 10 2008, 06:41 PM
I fail to see what is amusing.

Both Dandandat and ImpulseEngine tried to give you the benefit of the doubt with regards to the question I asked you about whether you saw Mulsims who were citizens as not being American.

I asked both to let you respond. Your response above makes your viewpoint quite clear. You feel American sentiment goes without saying. Yet you feel Muslims must go the extra step and say something. That says to me that you don't see Muslims who are US citizens as American.

Would you say the same thing about Blacks? Or about Jews? What makes it ok to see Muslim citizens of your country as not being just as American as everyone else?

You're looking to be offended and I'm ignoring you. You're purposely misintwerpreting statements way beyond the illogical limits of any intelligent and/or reasonable person just so you can cut and paste your insults.

It's very amusing. I don't want to be a spoil sport so I'll play along if you want.
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ImpulseEngine
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RTW
Jan 10 2008, 08:24 PM
ImpulseEngine
Jan 10 2008, 11:00 AM
But anyway your whole tangent wasn't my point.

Posted Image

ImpulseEngine
Jan 10 2008, 11:00 AM
My point was no one is asking for American leaders (or leaders of other national, cultural, or religious groups) to publicly denounce these murders like they are asking of Muslim leaders.

Probably because it goes without saying. The overwhelming and widely accepted norm is not news. It's nearly as silly as asking every person you meet if they breath air. :rolleyes:

We know where we stand. Our justice system makes it clear. We get mixed signals about other cultures that we're not as familiar with so we look to "them", not their apologists, for clarification. Apparently we're not getting a consistent clear message directly FROM "THEM". Whether they're sending mixed messages (actions and inactions speak louder than words), our media is not conveying the message, or we're not listening diligently enough - I don't know.
I agree we aren't asking because it goes without saying. But it also goes without saying in Muslim culture too about Muslims. Their leaders don't have to ask each Muslim his/her position on the matter or stand up and publicly denounce the behavior of every lunatic that happens to be Muslim anymore than American leaders need to do so about lunatic Americans. I don't think there are "mixed signals" at all, just lack of cultural understanding and cultural open-mindedness on the part of those with itchy pointer fingers. In the case of the current discussion, I get the Muslims' message about condemning honor killings quite clearly. You don't...? :headscratch:
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ImpulseEngine
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RTW
Jan 10 2008, 08:51 PM
Minuet
Jan 10 2008, 06:41 PM
I fail to see what is amusing.

Both Dandandat and ImpulseEngine tried to give you the benefit of the doubt with regards to the question I asked you about whether you saw Mulsims who were citizens as not being American.

I asked both to let you respond. Your response above makes your viewpoint quite clear. You feel American sentiment goes without saying. Yet you feel Muslims must go the extra step and say something. That says to me that you don't see Muslims who are US citizens as American.

Would you say the same thing about Blacks? Or about Jews? What makes it ok to see Muslim citizens of your country as not being just as American as everyone else?

You're looking to be offended and I'm ignoring you. You're purposely misintwerpreting statements way beyond the illogical limits of any intelligent and/or reasonable person just so you can cut and paste your insults.

It's very amusing. I don't want to be a spoil sport so I'll play along if you want.

Avoid the question if you must, but at least admit that's what you're doing. Now that Minuet spelled it out, I do believe she has raised a valid point.
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Minuet
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RTW
Jan 10 2008, 08:51 PM
Minuet
Jan 10 2008, 06:41 PM
I fail to see what is amusing.

Both Dandandat and ImpulseEngine tried to give you the benefit of the doubt with regards to the question I asked you about whether you saw Mulsims who were citizens as not being American.

I asked both to let you respond. Your response above makes your viewpoint quite clear. You feel American sentiment goes without saying. Yet you feel Muslims must go the extra step and say something. That says to me that you don't see Muslims who are US citizens as American.

Would you say the same thing about Blacks? Or about Jews? What makes it ok to see Muslim citizens of your country as not being just as American as everyone else?

You're looking to be offended and I'm ignoring you. You're purposely misintwerpreting statements way beyond the illogical limits of any intelligent and/or reasonable person just so you can cut and paste your insults.

It's very amusing. I don't want to be a spoil sport so I'll play along if you want.

Your childish whine about me looking for insult is pathetic beyond belief. I asked a question and gave you plenty of time to answer. Your response is clear and whinning about my looking to be offended is stupid and does not help your case.

The case is clear.You are asking Muslim Americans to spell out thier feelings specifically on a subject that you stated quite clearly goes without saying for "Americans" The only logical conclusiion is that you don't see those Muslims as American. That is bigotry.

By the way did you read my stats on domestic abuse? I must also disagree with the sentiment that Americans don't need to speak out about such things because it goes without saying. THREE MURDERS A DAY is a horrific statistic and Americans most certainly should be talking about that far more then one murder a month.
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RTW
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Minuet
Jan 10 2008, 07:00 PM
By the way did you read my stats on domestic abuse? I must also disagree with the sentiment that Americans don't need to speak out about such things because it goes without saying. THREE MURDERS A DAY is a horrific statistic and Americans most certainly should be talking about that far more then one murder a month.

Yeah yeah yeah - how could anyone not notice you trying to turn this thread into your own personal crusade.

Seven kids a day are killed in automobile accidents. Three more in unspecified non-transportation related accidents. Three more drown and two more die in fires.

I haven't heard you talk about these so obviously you must be okay with them. Fifteen kids a day are lost and not a word from you. That's cold. :shrug:
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RTW
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ImpulseEngine
Jan 10 2008, 06:54 PM
I get the Muslims' message about condemning honor killings quite clearly.  You don't...?

We all know what happens in Western countries. What happens to the perpetrators of honor killings in Muslim countries?

I did a brief search looking for negative consequences of perpetrating honor killings....

From a UN report....
Quote:
 
Today, honor killings are prevalent mostly among Muslim populations.
http://www.meforum.org/article/50 :jawdrop:


From Jordan...
Quote:
 
Article 98: He who commits a crime due to extreme anger caused by an illegal, and to some extent dangerous act, committed by the victim benefits from reduced penalty.

Article 340: (a) He who discovers his wife, or one of his maharim [female relatives of such a degree of consanguinity as precludes marriage], while committing adultery with another man and kills, wounds, or injures one or both of them, is exempt from any penalty; (b) He who discovers his wife, or one of his sisters or female relatives, with another in an illegitimate bed, and kills, wounds, or injures [one or both of them] benefits from a reduction of penalty.
http://www.meforum.org/article/50


Quote:
 
The killings violate the right to life upheld in versions of the draft Basic Law and openly discriminate against women. The woman alone is punished for the "crime;" whereas the man, who may have raped his victim, is considered an innocent party and often walks free.
http://www.merip.org/mer/mer206/ruggi.htm


Quote:
 
If a woman brings shame to the family--through allegations of premarital or extramarital sex, by refusing an arranged marriage, or attempting to obtain a divorce--her male relatives are bound by duty and culture to murder her.

Critics claim honor killings are sanctioned by the educated elite, who pass laws that enable murderers to get off with little or no punishment. "Many groups want harsher punishment for those who commit such acts," continues Nimrat, "but the cultural dimension plays an important role. To eradicate this will take time."
      Even when apprehended, murderers serve little or no jail time because honor killings are accorded special status in the courts. Men convicted of premeditated murder may be imprisoned for as little as three to six months. Upon their release, friends and relatives treat them like celebrities. Ahmed, a Palestinian boy who killed his teenage sister because she refused an arranged marriage, was commended upon his release from jail. Neighbors showered him with compliments, and his father called him a hero for restoring the family honor.
http://www.worldandi.com/newhome/public/2003/may/clpub.asp
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whitestar
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Captain
Quote:
 
I did a brief search looking for negative consequences of perpetrating honor killings....

From a UN report....
A frightening and disturbing insight into honour killings. My heart breaks for the victims, it fills me with anger and anguish.
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
RTW,

Let's see, the title of the source for your post is "Middle East Forum - Promoting American Interests". Wow, that sounds unbiased now doesn't it. :rolleyes:

What that article overlooks (and apparently you as well) is that it is the government of Jordan that allows these honor killings, not Islam. As such, it is not a "Muslim" issue, but a Jordanian one. Another similar issue is with Turkey. Pointing fingers at these Muslims as evidence of a Muslim problem while totally ignoring the complete absence of honor killings in other predominently Muslim countries like Indonesia and Saudi Arabia shows bigotry. The fact is the Koran and Sharia make no mention of honor killings and condemn murder. Honor killings are not part of the Islamic religion. And, since it can't be shown that it pervades all Muslim countries, it can't be said that it's a Muslim problem either.

Here are some Muslim condemnations of honor killings for you:

Source

Quote:
 
Some experts estimate that 200 to 300 honor killings like Zahra's occur every year in Syria. Most receive little or no attention. But Zahra's murder – in part because it happened in the capital and not a rural area – has compelled Syria's grand mufti, cleric Ahmad Hassoun, to publicly condemn the crime, calling for the first time for the immediate protection of girls at risk and for legal reform on the basis that such crimes are un-Islamic. President Bashar al-Assad has also promised to find a solution.


Source

Quote:
 
Some 40 Pakistani religious scholars belonging to different schools of thought have recently issued a joint fatwa against honor killings.

They branded the heinous custom un-Islamic and devoid of the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).


Source

Quote:
 
Lebanon's most senior Shiite Muslim cleric issued Thursday a fatwa, or religious edict, banning honor killings, calling the custom of murdering a female relative for sexual misconduct "a repulsive act."

The fatwa by Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah was a rare condemnation by a prominent cleric of the practice. Fadlallah's office said he issued the statement in alarm over reports on an increase in honor killings.

"I view an honor crime as a repulsive act condemned and prohibited by religion," Fadlallah, the most revered religious authority for Lebanon's 1.2 million Shiites, said in a statement faxed to The Associated Press.


I noticed you completely ignored the American statistics of honor killings that Minuet provided. Why...? Just because we haven't labeled them "honor killings" doesn't make them any different. Where's your outrage?

And what about so-called "dowry deaths" in India? It's a very similar problem. I don't hear the complaints about those.

It's pretty obvious that certain people just don't like Muslims and that's why they are being singled out. I'm certainly not defending anyone - Muslim or otherwise - who commits honor killings of any sort, but the pervasive all-inclusive finger-pointing at Muslims collectively is shameful and sad.
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Minuet
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RTW
Jan 11 2008, 04:15 PM
Minuet
Jan 10 2008, 07:00 PM
By the way did you read my stats on domestic abuse? I must also disagree with the sentiment that Americans don't need to speak out about such things because it goes without saying. THREE MURDERS A DAY is a horrific statistic and Americans most certainly should be talking about that far more then one murder a month.

Yeah yeah yeah - how could anyone not notice you trying to turn this thread into your own personal crusade.

Seven kids a day are killed in automobile accidents. Three more in unspecified non-transportation related accidents. Three more drown and two more die in fires.

I haven't heard you talk about these so obviously you must be okay with them. Fifteen kids a day are lost and not a word from you. That's cold. :shrug:

Actually I have spoken on this forum many times about stupid and horrible drivers.

Very weak attempt to deflect from your bigotry. Try again.
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Minuet
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ImpulseEngine
 
It's pretty obvious that certain people just don't like Muslims and that's why they are being singled out. I'm certainly not defending anyone - Muslim or otherwise - who commits honor killings of any sort, but the pervasive all-inclusive finger-pointing at Muslims collectively is shameful and sad.


I don't need to respond to RTW's second post because you have done such a wonderful job for me.

Thank you.
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