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| Muslim man in Dallas kills daughters; for acting like Americans | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 4 2008, 11:56 AM (2,525 Views) | |
| Minuet | Jan 9 2008, 09:08 AM Post #76 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Somerled - you really don't have a clue about what you are talking about do you? Just because the BBC broadcasts in a myriad of languages does not mean the the content is not originating from the BBC. :rolleyes: It is you that is making the serious allegation - not me. Think about it. What type of reputation would the BBC have if they did not bother to check content before broadcasting? I am not refering to changing things here - I am refering to simple checks for accuracy. No news service is going to simply broadcast content from other sources without a simple check for accuracy. All news services do broadcast clips from other services - but none do so in "real time". It's just not a realistic scenario. So like I said - if you believe that they simply broadcast content from other sources in real time without checking for basic accuracy then you are naive. |
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| Admiralbill_gomec | Jan 9 2008, 10:02 AM Post #77 |
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UberAdmiral
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My error, Min. I thought we were discussing honor killings (which I thought was the topic of this thread). It was in that vein that I was continuing. I thought that was what Somerled was going on about, too. Of course people of all faiths have killed their spouses and children (Andrea Yates in Houston pops right into mind), but I was in the "honor killings" mindset, which is the direction I was on. |
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| Admiralbill_gomec | Jan 9 2008, 10:06 AM Post #78 |
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UberAdmiral
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You found a quote, but nothing to correlate it. That tells me nothing. Was there one, two, or ten "Christian" honor killings in the UK that year (which, by the way, was 2001)? All I hear is a weasel-worded PC response by some spokesman. Yes, I did read the whole article... you neglected to mention it was about a well-known Muslim honor killing... |
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| Minuet | Jan 9 2008, 12:16 PM Post #79 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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That's ok AB. To explain myself better - this got expanded beyond honour killings for the specific purpose of showing that an honour murder is no different from any other murder that involves the idea of a person attempting to exert control and power over thier victims. "Honour" murders are a subset of domestic abuse. I truely believe that the men who engage in such murders are only using the religion as an excuse. A poor one at that since the religion of Islam does not condone these actions. The individuals involved would find another excuse and engage in the abuse anyways - hence the comparison to domestic abuse as a whole. Through the research I have done, which includes print media and the links that I produced here I think I have shown that the religion does not condone these acts and that North American Muslims are trying to move beyond the tribal ways that they sought to escape when they came here. It's sad that some are unsuccessful - but we cannot blame the majority for the acts of a few sick individuals. I think the focus on "honour murders" is an attempt to make ourselves feel better that this doesn't happen in "our" communities. But it is a false label that ignores the domestic abuse that does take place every day in our own communities, and which I sadly witnessed at a much closer level these past few weeks. |
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| somerled | Jan 9 2008, 07:50 PM Post #80 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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I am sure that if you took the effort to look (do a google search , or maybe go to AI) you'll find examples. I wont be wasting more time on this since you will refuse to accept anything that does not sit inside your paradyme and refuse to accept a quote frrom a high rank british cop (who by the way would know more about this than you do). I think the term is tunnel vision.
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| RTW | Jan 9 2008, 09:26 PM Post #81 |
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Vice Admiral
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| Franko | Jan 9 2008, 09:32 PM Post #82 |
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Shower Moderator
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The trouble is, the concept of "honour killings" is not inherent to western Judeo-Christian society. Especially in modern times. Even among hard-core Christian sects in North America there isn't really any kind of cultural precedent for what would entail an "honour killing", at least anything that is supported by the Judeo-Christian system of theology. Unfortunately, there is a tradition of this kind of thing from some other cultures; and I'm certainly not naiive to believe that some groups that come from 3rd world cultures might have trouble letting go of some of these antiquated tribal customs when trying to integrate into our society. If that sounds like an argument from superiority, then I'm sorry. Let's not condemn a whole religion or culture, but face it. All cultures are not equal. And yes, Western Civilization is the only culture I believe in or want to live in. That's not bigotry, or tunnell visiion. It's comparitive observation and choice of preference. |
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| 8247 | Jan 9 2008, 09:40 PM Post #83 |
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Apparently we look like this now
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^^^
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| Minuet | Jan 9 2008, 10:21 PM Post #84 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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I am going to repeat what I wrote above
I'm sorry - but a beautiful young girl that worked at my store had her life snuffed out just like the beautiful young girls in this story. The fact that her husband was not Muslim and didn't use religion as his excuse doesn't make it any different then the honour murders. Western society is better then the culture left behind because we don't sanction it. But the mistake is in thinking that the majority bring that culture here and still sanction it. They don't. Most come here to escape that stifling culture. Domestic violence occurs in households of all backgrounds. It could be happening next door to you and you wouldn't know it. It's about power and it happens everywhere. Not only in Muslim families. And unless we stop playing the "we are superior" game and start facing the real issues behind domestic violence then it won't ever end. In fact, given what I have seen from the reaction of the Muslim community to the murder here in Toronto I think they are further along in trying to end the violence then the rest of us are. The media talked about the domestic violence in the Aqsa Parvez murder. The Muslim community faced the facts of domestic violence in that murder. It barely got mentioned in the Iliada Zois murder, but I know from directly speaking to a personal friend of hers that domestic violence was indeed an issue and her attempt to leave seems to be what caused the murder of her and her brother. But does anyone care? It seems not. Maybe we are not so superior after all. Ignoring the domestic violence in our own neighborhoods is equivalent to sanctioning it. |
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| Franko | Jan 9 2008, 11:33 PM Post #85 |
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Shower Moderator
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^^^^^^^ I don't disagree, Min. I was addressing the specific concept of what is considered to be an "honour killing" as it pertains to it's context in our culture compared to others. Our culture has domestic violence and systematic domestic abuse that may be almost as prevalent as found in any culture of our world. We just don't have a tradition of killing family members over some kinds of cultural or traditional "taboos". Some other cultures do. Fortunately our legal system treats murder as murder; you don't get any sentencing slack just because it's permitted in the cultural squalor that an immigrant may have come from.
Agreed. Note how eager many immigrants are to abide by our rules of Law and embrace our cultural morality. Most of them.
Granted, we still have a ways to go. Alcohol is often a big factor in domestic abuse; I notice lately that some judges are ordering domestic abusers into madatory programs and rehab. There are other reasons that fuel domestic abuse as well, of course. |
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| ImpulseEngine | Jan 10 2008, 12:45 AM Post #86 |
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Admiral
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I don't see what it matters whether the motive was "honor killings". A father murdering his children is equally horrific no matter what the reason. Article 1 Article 2 Those are two examples of father's murdering their own kids. Should we demand Americans as a whole stand up and condemn these heinous acts? Americans aren't responsible for these murders. Individuals are... |
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| Dr. Noah | Jan 10 2008, 07:16 AM Post #87 |
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Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
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I am curious, for those who say they "prefer" Western culture, have you ever lived in another? I don't mean on a military base, I mean in the culture itself. Learning the language and the culture, not just reading about it. It's like having vanilla ice cream and deciding it's your favorite without trying another. |
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| Minuet | Jan 10 2008, 08:44 AM Post #88 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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And that, in a nutshell is the point I have been making all along.
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| somerled | Jan 10 2008, 08:55 AM Post #89 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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It is you have doesn't have a clue. The BBC relays these broadcasts and warns that the content and opinions broadcast in the programs are not the BBC's responsibility and do not necessarily reflect the BBC's editorial opinion. (SBS here does the same when they broadcast the German (english) news and the american news.) I know BBC has foreign language news broadcast services. I am talking about their ALL ENGLISH LANGUAGE 24 HOUR WORLD NEWS BROADCAST SERVICE ,where they simply pick up and relay foreign radio news segments from a variety of countries as broadcast by them. Still waiting for you to prove your claim about them, but not going to hold my breath since your resorted to personal insults rather than actually providing proof - for obvious reasons . How about you look up the BBC WORLD NEWS RADIO service's frequency and tune your radio in to it and give it a good listen rather than talking out of ignorance having never listened to it and several of the different foreign broadcaster programs relayed by them. Heck , you even risk learning something by doing this , and perhaps becoming better informed than you seem to be. |
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| Dandandat | Jan 10 2008, 09:01 AM Post #90 |
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Time to put something here
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Disclaimer I am just answering your questions logicly and not in a maner that sugests my opinion on the matter. It would stand to reason that for the person's who take issue with the idea of "honor killings" and this issue would most certainly agree that murder is wrong regardless of whether it is an "honor Killing". That particular point is agreed upon by all and so it is a non-point. The reason for discussing this article in the manner it was presented was to deal with the "Honor Killing" aspect of the case in its own right and how it deals with the Muslim community. Agreeing that murder is wrong regardless does not negate the importance of this other aspect of the issue in ts own right.
Americans as a whole have(/will) stood up and condemned these heinous acts. It’s called a conviction through trial by jury and the congressional passing of laws that prohibit these acts. Both bodies, the jury, and the congress are a real representation of the collective will of the American people. There actions should be and are seen as America as a whole voicing an opinion on an issue. Now to put this in context, it would seem those who have issue with Muslims and the condemnation of “honor killing” do not believe that an equivalent condemnation is coming from the Muslim community. I doubt that the people who feel this is an issue want every single Muslim to make a statement; they want those who represent the greater Muslim community to make a statement on behalf of the whole. They believe this is not happening. This may or may not have happened, it may or may not be needed, but the way you phrase your questions here are suggesting something that is not true (in the second quote) or deflationary (in the first quote). |
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9:21 AM Jul 11