Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Muslim man in Dallas kills daughters; for acting like Americans
Topic Started: Jan 4 2008, 11:56 AM (2,525 Views)
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Somerled - you really don't have a clue about what you are talking about do you?

Just because the BBC broadcasts in a myriad of languages does not mean the the content is not originating from the BBC. :rolleyes:

It is you that is making the serious allegation - not me. Think about it. What type of reputation would the BBC have if they did not bother to check content before broadcasting? I am not refering to changing things here - I am refering to simple checks for accuracy. No news service is going to simply broadcast content from other sources without a simple check for accuracy. All news services do broadcast clips from other services - but none do so in "real time". It's just not a realistic scenario.

So like I said - if you believe that they simply broadcast content from other sources in real time without checking for basic accuracy then you are naive.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
Minuet
Jan 8 2008, 10:28 PM
Admiralbill_gomec
Jan 8 2008, 06:59 PM
Minuet
Jan 8 2008, 04:36 PM
Did I mention that the girl worked at the same place I do? I know that she was not Japanese. She was definitely Christian and no one said anything about her boyfriend being anything else but.

But you go on living in your rose coloured world where those who were raised Christian never abuse women or children. The Priests who sexually abused children weren't Christian - they were anything but [/sarcasm]

Geeze - closed eyes and attitudes are exactly why abuse persists in our supposedly advanced society.  :(

I never said that, but I did say that I have never heard of Christian men commiting "honor killings." It sounds like you are moving the goalposts, Min.

I know a lot of athiests who "celebrate Christmas." That is, the gift-giving aspect of it. I believe you need to clarify what you mean by "celebrating Christmas" or leave said goalposts be.

Actually I didn't move the goalposts. You did. First you did specifically say honour killings but later you said the following

Quote:
 
Actually, I just read it now.

That is a first for me. I've never read of a Christian doing this anywhere until now. First time ever. As for Somerled, he did make the unchallenged claim of "How many times do we hear of fathers who are christian murdering their wives and children ?" Once again, I've never heard of this. I'd like a link to a news source, Somerled (and don't use Minuet's).

"Fathers who are Christian" is what he said. True, that could be taken two ways. I read it channeling his usual comments about Christians, which I admit are my bias.


You clearly claimed you never heard of a Christian murdering thier wives or children. In this paragraph you did not add "in an honour killing" I think this is a ridiculous claim. And I proved it by showing a case that I personally knew about where a man killed his wife and her brother. You will just have to take my word for it that the husband was not Muslim or Jewish or anything else. He was from a Christian background. The crime was just as horrific as the honour murders. Who cares if the guy claims he was dishonoured by the person's behaviour or if the murder was done to keep a wife from leaving. In both cases the bottom line is that the murders were about abuse and control. Not religion. I provided multiple sources that show that despite what the individuals involved may claim there is no justification in the Koran and the Muslim religion does not condone these acts.

My error, Min.

I thought we were discussing honor killings (which I thought was the topic of this thread). It was in that vein that I was continuing. I thought that was what Somerled was going on about, too.

Of course people of all faiths have killed their spouses and children (Andrea Yates in Houston pops right into mind), but I was in the "honor killings" mindset, which is the direction I was on.

Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
somerled
Jan 8 2008, 07:46 PM
Admiralbill_gomec
Jan 9 2008, 06:02 AM
somerled
Jan 7 2008, 10:31 PM
8247
Jan 8 2008, 05:11 AM
STC
Jan 7 2008, 01:44 PM
RTW
Jan 7 2008, 06:17 PM
Why are so scared to apply the principles of Occam's Razor when talking about this?  Sure, it would be wrong for a jury to do so, but we're not on the jury.  Why is this man getting so much benefit of the doubt where others haven't?

Occam's Razor basically says that the simplest, most obvious explanation is usually the correct one. Sounds nice but that doesn't always work in practice.

I don't think people are 'scared' to apply Occam's razor. To be honest, just by my own judgement, this does sound like its probably an honour killing. Though we shouldn't rule out other possibilities - IE is quite right to remind us of innocent until proven guilty.

What interests me more is why people feel the need to post these stories? We all know about honour killings. We all think they are horrific. We all think that killing is horrific - period (someone please correct me if I've made an incorrect assumption about you :) ).

Why do I keep posting these stories?

Because at least once a month, I hear someone saying that Islam is a religion of peace, and how dare we generalize.

But, what I don't hear is Muslims condemning these actions, or the actions of terrorists.

How many times do we hear of fathers who are christian murdering their wives and children ?

Fathers killing their children is not specifically a crime that only muslims do. Not so long ago there was story here about a man who drove his car (containing his children aged between 2 and 9) into a lake or river , downing them.

Just because this a muslim family , it's a big story to some . :rolleyes:

I've never heard of a "Christian" father performing a so-called honor killing. Ever. (The word "Christian" in quotes so as to include any Christian faith, not, as Somerled implies, that it is a fundamentalist Christian.)

EDIT: I could not let this claim just slide by without commenting on it.

FYI : and I will highlite the appropriate paragraph : Example
Quote:
 
Commander Andy Baker added: "Violence in the name of culture will not be tolerated. Murder in the name of honour will be punished by the severest penalties available in law."

Scotland Yard believe there were 12 'honour killings' in the UK last year (that would be 2001) and said they were not restricted to Muslims, but also occurred in Sikh and Christian families.


This took less than a minute to find.

You found a quote, but nothing to correlate it. That tells me nothing.

Was there one, two, or ten "Christian" honor killings in the UK that year (which, by the way, was 2001)? All I hear is a weasel-worded PC response by some spokesman. Yes, I did read the whole article... you neglected to mention it was about a well-known Muslim honor killing...
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Admiralbill_gomec
Jan 9 2008, 10:02 AM
Minuet
Jan 8 2008, 10:28 PM
Admiralbill_gomec
Jan 8 2008, 06:59 PM
Minuet
Jan 8 2008, 04:36 PM
Did I mention that the girl worked at the same place I do? I know that she was not Japanese. She was definitely Christian and no one said anything about her boyfriend being anything else but.

But you go on living in your rose coloured world where those who were raised Christian never abuse women or children. The Priests who sexually abused children weren't Christian - they were anything but [/sarcasm]

Geeze - closed eyes and attitudes are exactly why abuse persists in our supposedly advanced society.  :(

I never said that, but I did say that I have never heard of Christian men commiting "honor killings." It sounds like you are moving the goalposts, Min.

I know a lot of athiests who "celebrate Christmas." That is, the gift-giving aspect of it. I believe you need to clarify what you mean by "celebrating Christmas" or leave said goalposts be.

Actually I didn't move the goalposts. You did. First you did specifically say honour killings but later you said the following

Quote:
 
Actually, I just read it now.

That is a first for me. I've never read of a Christian doing this anywhere until now. First time ever. As for Somerled, he did make the unchallenged claim of "How many times do we hear of fathers who are christian murdering their wives and children ?" Once again, I've never heard of this. I'd like a link to a news source, Somerled (and don't use Minuet's).

"Fathers who are Christian" is what he said. True, that could be taken two ways. I read it channeling his usual comments about Christians, which I admit are my bias.


You clearly claimed you never heard of a Christian murdering thier wives or children. In this paragraph you did not add "in an honour killing" I think this is a ridiculous claim. And I proved it by showing a case that I personally knew about where a man killed his wife and her brother. You will just have to take my word for it that the husband was not Muslim or Jewish or anything else. He was from a Christian background. The crime was just as horrific as the honour murders. Who cares if the guy claims he was dishonoured by the person's behaviour or if the murder was done to keep a wife from leaving. In both cases the bottom line is that the murders were about abuse and control. Not religion. I provided multiple sources that show that despite what the individuals involved may claim there is no justification in the Koran and the Muslim religion does not condone these acts.

My error, Min.

I thought we were discussing honor killings (which I thought was the topic of this thread). It was in that vein that I was continuing. I thought that was what Somerled was going on about, too.

Of course people of all faiths have killed their spouses and children (Andrea Yates in Houston pops right into mind), but I was in the "honor killings" mindset, which is the direction I was on.

That's ok AB.

To explain myself better - this got expanded beyond honour killings for the specific purpose of showing that an honour murder is no different from any other murder that involves the idea of a person attempting to exert control and power over thier victims. "Honour" murders are a subset of domestic abuse. I truely believe that the men who engage in such murders are only using the religion as an excuse. A poor one at that since the religion of Islam does not condone these actions. The individuals involved would find another excuse and engage in the abuse anyways - hence the comparison to domestic abuse as a whole.

Through the research I have done, which includes print media and the links that I produced here I think I have shown that the religion does not condone these acts and that North American Muslims are trying to move beyond the tribal ways that they sought to escape when they came here. It's sad that some are unsuccessful - but we cannot blame the majority for the acts of a few sick individuals.

I think the focus on "honour murders" is an attempt to make ourselves feel better that this doesn't happen in "our" communities. But it is a false label that ignores the domestic abuse that does take place every day in our own communities, and which I sadly witnessed at a much closer level these past few weeks.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
somerled
Member Avatar
Admiral MacDonald RN
Admiralbill_gomec
Jan 10 2008, 01:06 AM
somerled
Jan 8 2008, 07:46 PM
Admiralbill_gomec
Jan 9 2008, 06:02 AM
somerled
Jan 7 2008, 10:31 PM
8247
Jan 8 2008, 05:11 AM
STC
Jan 7 2008, 01:44 PM
RTW
Jan 7 2008, 06:17 PM
Why are so scared to apply the principles of Occam's Razor when talking about this?  Sure, it would be wrong for a jury to do so, but we're not on the jury.  Why is this man getting so much benefit of the doubt where others haven't?

Occam's Razor basically says that the simplest, most obvious explanation is usually the correct one. Sounds nice but that doesn't always work in practice.

I don't think people are 'scared' to apply Occam's razor. To be honest, just by my own judgement, this does sound like its probably an honour killing. Though we shouldn't rule out other possibilities - IE is quite right to remind us of innocent until proven guilty.

What interests me more is why people feel the need to post these stories? We all know about honour killings. We all think they are horrific. We all think that killing is horrific - period (someone please correct me if I've made an incorrect assumption about you :) ).

Why do I keep posting these stories?

Because at least once a month, I hear someone saying that Islam is a religion of peace, and how dare we generalize.

But, what I don't hear is Muslims condemning these actions, or the actions of terrorists.

How many times do we hear of fathers who are christian murdering their wives and children ?

Fathers killing their children is not specifically a crime that only muslims do. Not so long ago there was story here about a man who drove his car (containing his children aged between 2 and 9) into a lake or river , downing them.

Just because this a muslim family , it's a big story to some . :rolleyes:

I've never heard of a "Christian" father performing a so-called honor killing. Ever. (The word "Christian" in quotes so as to include any Christian faith, not, as Somerled implies, that it is a fundamentalist Christian.)

EDIT: I could not let this claim just slide by without commenting on it.

FYI : and I will highlite the appropriate paragraph : Example
Quote:
 
Commander Andy Baker added: "Violence in the name of culture will not be tolerated. Murder in the name of honour will be punished by the severest penalties available in law."

Scotland Yard believe there were 12 'honour killings' in the UK last year (that would be 2001) and said they were not restricted to Muslims, but also occurred in Sikh and Christian families.


This took less than a minute to find.

You found a quote, but nothing to correlate it. That tells me nothing.

Was there one, two, or ten "Christian" honor killings in the UK that year (which, by the way, was 2001)? All I hear is a weasel-worded PC response by some spokesman. Yes, I did read the whole article... you neglected to mention it was about a well-known Muslim honor killing...

I am sure that if you took the effort to look (do a google search , or maybe go to AI) you'll find examples.

I wont be wasting more time on this since you will refuse to accept anything that does not sit inside your paradyme and refuse to accept a quote frrom a high rank british cop (who by the way would know more about this than you do). I think the term is tunnel vision.

:wave2:
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
RTW
Member Avatar
Vice Admiral
somerled
Jan 9 2008, 05:50 PM
I am sure that if you took the effort to look (do a google search , or maybe go to AI) ....

:thud:
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Franko
Member Avatar
Shower Moderator


The trouble is, the concept of "honour killings" is not inherent to western Judeo-Christian society. Especially in modern times. Even among hard-core Christian sects in North America there isn't really any kind of cultural precedent for what would entail an "honour killing", at least anything that is supported by the Judeo-Christian system of theology.

Unfortunately, there is a tradition of this kind of thing from some other cultures; and I'm certainly not naiive to believe that some groups that come from 3rd world cultures might have trouble letting go of some of these antiquated tribal customs when trying to integrate into our society.

If that sounds like an argument from superiority, then I'm sorry.

Let's not condemn a whole religion or culture, but face it. All cultures are not equal. And yes, Western Civilization is the only culture I believe in or want to live in.

That's not bigotry, or tunnell visiion. It's comparitive observation and choice of preference.





Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
8247
Member Avatar
Apparently we look like this now
^^^

:clap:
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Franko
Jan 9 2008, 09:32 PM
The trouble is, the concept of "honour killings" is not inherent to western Judeo-Christian society.   Especially in modern times.   Even among hard-core Christian sects in North America there isn't really any kind of cultural precedent for what would entail an "honour killing", at least anything that is supported by the Judeo-Christian system of theology.  

Unfortunately, there is a tradition of this kind of thing from some other cultures;  and I'm certainly not naiive to believe that some groups that come from 3rd world cultures might have trouble letting go of some of these antiquated tribal customs when trying to integrate into our society.  

If that sounds like an argument from superiority, then I'm sorry. 

Let's not condemn a whole religion or culture, but face it.   All cultures are not equal.   And yes, Western Civilization is the only culture I believe in or want to live in. 

That's not bigotry, or tunnell visiion.   It's comparitive observation and choice of preference.

I am going to repeat what I wrote above

Quote:
 
I think the focus on "honour murders" is an attempt to make ourselves feel better that this doesn't happen in "our" communities. But it is a false label that ignores the domestic abuse that does take place every day in our own communities, and which I sadly witnessed at a much closer level these past few weeks.


I'm sorry - but a beautiful young girl that worked at my store had her life snuffed out just like the beautiful young girls in this story.

The fact that her husband was not Muslim and didn't use religion as his excuse doesn't make it any different then the honour murders. Western society is better then the culture left behind because we don't sanction it. But the mistake is in thinking that the majority bring that culture here and still sanction it. They don't. Most come here to escape that stifling culture.

Domestic violence occurs in households of all backgrounds. It could be happening next door to you and you wouldn't know it. It's about power and it happens everywhere. Not only in Muslim families. And unless we stop playing the "we are superior" game and start facing the real issues behind domestic violence then it won't ever end. In fact, given what I have seen from the reaction of the Muslim community to the murder here in Toronto I think they are further along in trying to end the violence then the rest of us are. The media talked about the domestic violence in the Aqsa Parvez murder. The Muslim community faced the facts of domestic violence in that murder. It barely got mentioned in the Iliada Zois murder, but I know from directly speaking to a personal friend of hers that domestic violence was indeed an issue and her attempt to leave seems to be what caused the murder of her and her brother.

But does anyone care? It seems not. Maybe we are not so superior after all. Ignoring the domestic violence in our own neighborhoods is equivalent to sanctioning it.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Franko
Member Avatar
Shower Moderator
^^^^^^^


I don't disagree, Min. I was addressing the specific concept of what is considered to be an "honour killing" as it pertains to it's context in our culture compared to others. Our culture has domestic violence and systematic domestic abuse that may be almost as prevalent as found in any culture of our world. We just don't have a tradition of killing family members over some kinds of cultural or traditional "taboos". Some other cultures do.

Fortunately our legal system treats murder as murder; you don't get any sentencing slack just because it's permitted in the cultural squalor that an immigrant may have come from.

Quote:
 
The fact that her husband was not Muslim and didn't use religion as his excuse doesn't make it any different then the honour murders. Western society is better then the culture left behind because we don't sanction it. But the mistake is in thinking that the majority bring that culture here and still sanction it. They don't. Most come here to escape that stifling culture.



Agreed. Note how eager many immigrants are to abide by our rules of Law and embrace our cultural morality. Most of them.


Quote:
 
And unless we stop playing the "we are superior" game and start facing the real issues behind domestic violence then it won't ever end. 


Granted, we still have a ways to go. Alcohol is often a big factor in domestic abuse; I notice lately that some judges are ordering domestic abusers into madatory programs and rehab. There are other reasons that fuel domestic abuse as well, of course.


Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
ImpulseEngine
Admiral
I don't see what it matters whether the motive was "honor killings". A father murdering his children is equally horrific no matter what the reason.

Article 1
Article 2

Those are two examples of father's murdering their own kids. Should we demand Americans as a whole stand up and condemn these heinous acts? Americans aren't responsible for these murders. Individuals are...
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
I am curious, for those who say they "prefer" Western culture, have you ever lived in another?

I don't mean on a military base, I mean in the culture itself. Learning the language and the culture, not just reading about it. It's like having vanilla ice cream and deciding it's your favorite without trying another.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Quote:
 
I don't see what it matters whether the motive was "honor killings". A father murdering his children is equally horrific no matter what the reason.



And that, in a nutshell is the point I have been making all along. :)
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
somerled
Member Avatar
Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet
Jan 10 2008, 12:08 AM
Somerled - you really don't have a clue about what you are talking about do you?

Just because the BBC broadcasts in a myriad of languages does not mean the the content is not originating from the BBC.  :rolleyes:

It is you that is making the serious allegation - not me. Think about it. What type of reputation would the BBC have if they did not bother to check content before broadcasting? I am not refering to changing things here - I am refering to simple checks for accuracy.  No news service is going to simply broadcast content from other sources without a simple check for accuracy. All news services do broadcast clips from other services - but none do so in "real time". It's just not a realistic scenario.

So like I said - if you believe that they simply broadcast content from other sources in real time without checking for basic accuracy then you are naive.

It is you have doesn't have a clue. The BBC relays these broadcasts and warns that the content and opinions broadcast in the programs are not the BBC's responsibility and do not necessarily reflect the BBC's editorial opinion.
(SBS here does the same when they broadcast the German (english) news and the american news.)

I know BBC has foreign language news broadcast services.

I am talking about their ALL ENGLISH LANGUAGE 24 HOUR WORLD NEWS BROADCAST SERVICE ,where they simply pick up and relay foreign radio news segments from a variety of countries as broadcast by them.

Still waiting for you to prove your claim about them, but not going to hold my breath since your resorted to personal insults rather than actually providing proof - for obvious reasons .

How about you look up the BBC WORLD NEWS RADIO service's frequency and tune your radio in to it and give it a good listen rather than talking out of ignorance having never listened to it and several of the different foreign broadcaster programs relayed by them.
Heck , you even risk learning something by doing this , and perhaps becoming better informed than you seem to be.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Dandandat
Member Avatar
Time to put something here
ImpulseEngine
Jan 10 2008, 12:45 AM
I don't see what it matters whether the motive was "honor killings". A father murdering his children is equally horrific no matter what the reason.


Disclaimer I am just answering your questions logicly and not in a maner that sugests my opinion on the matter.

It would stand to reason that for the person's who take issue with the idea of "honor killings" and this issue would most certainly agree that murder is wrong regardless of whether it is an "honor Killing". That particular point is agreed upon by all and so it is a non-point. The reason for discussing this article in the manner it was presented was to deal with the "Honor Killing" aspect of the case in its own right and how it deals with the Muslim community. Agreeing that murder is wrong regardless does not negate the importance of this other aspect of the issue in ts own right.


Quote:
 
Article 1
Article 2

Those are two examples of father's murdering their own kids.  Should we demand Americans as a whole stand up and condemn these heinous acts?  Americans aren't responsible for these murders.  Individuals are...


Americans as a whole have(/will) stood up and condemned these heinous acts. It’s called a conviction through trial by jury and the congressional passing of laws that prohibit these acts. Both bodies, the jury, and the congress are a real representation of the collective will of the American people. There actions should be and are seen as America as a whole voicing an opinion on an issue.

Now to put this in context, it would seem those who have issue with Muslims and the condemnation of “honor killing” do not believe that an equivalent condemnation is coming from the Muslim community. I doubt that the people who feel this is an issue want every single Muslim to make a statement; they want those who represent the greater Muslim community to make a statement on behalf of the whole. They believe this is not happening.

This may or may not have happened, it may or may not be needed, but the way you phrase your questions here are suggesting something that is not true (in the second quote) or deflationary (in the first quote).
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
ZetaBoards gives you all the tools to create a successful discussion community.
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Politics and World Events Forum · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Tweet
comments powered by Disqus