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Muslim man in Dallas kills daughters; for acting like Americans
Topic Started: Jan 4 2008, 11:56 AM (2,527 Views)
somerled
Member Avatar
Admiral MacDonald RN
8247
Jan 8 2008, 05:11 AM
STC
Jan 7 2008, 01:44 PM
RTW
Jan 7 2008, 06:17 PM
Why are so scared to apply the principles of Occam's Razor when talking about this?  Sure, it would be wrong for a jury to do so, but we're not on the jury.  Why is this man getting so much benefit of the doubt where others haven't?

Occam's Razor basically says that the simplest, most obvious explanation is usually the correct one. Sounds nice but that doesn't always work in practice.

I don't think people are 'scared' to apply Occam's razor. To be honest, just by my own judgement, this does sound like its probably an honour killing. Though we shouldn't rule out other possibilities - IE is quite right to remind us of innocent until proven guilty.

What interests me more is why people feel the need to post these stories? We all know about honour killings. We all think they are horrific. We all think that killing is horrific - period (someone please correct me if I've made an incorrect assumption about you :) ).

Why do I keep posting these stories?

Because at least once a month, I hear someone saying that Islam is a religion of peace, and how dare we generalize.

But, what I don't hear is Muslims condemning these actions, or the actions of terrorists.

How many times do we hear of fathers who are christian murdering their wives and children ?

Fathers killing their children is not specifically a crime that only muslims do. Not so long ago there was story here about a man who drove his car (containing his children aged between 2 and 9) into a lake or river , downing them.

Just because this a muslim family , it's a big story to some . :rolleyes:
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
STC
Jan 8 2008, 08:40 AM
I regularly hear and see Muslims condeming atrocities such as this. I don't have to look for such instances, they are commonplace in our media coverage.

Not that I see why Muslims should be continually bending over backwards to apologise for their fundamentalist segment, any more than Christians or Irish people should have been required to apologise for 30+ years of IRA and Unionist atrocities.

So do I , I work with some Ph.D students who are Indonesian , Malay and Sudanese muslims , I mentioned the circumstances of this to them and they were very distressed for the murdered girls and were appalled by it (especially if it turns out that the father did kill the girls for the reasons alleged).

I just womder , how many muslims does 8247 socialise or work with and how often ?

BTW a few bad eggs does not mean everyone in that group is bad.
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RTW
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Vice Admiral
Minuet
Jan 7 2008, 08:18 PM
I guess it's a whole lot easier to throw out personal insults then it is to actually respond to points made.
I suppose that explains why you continually do it. STC specifically mentioned the Muslim fundamentalist segment - a point which you ignored. :shrug:

Minuet
Jan 7 2008, 08:18 PM
What actions do you expect? Do you go hunting down every killer who happens to be Christian and exact vigilante justice on them?
I'd like to, but that's not realistic and besides the point. My government, a government predominately made up of Christians, does it's best to hunt down killers within it's borders, regardless of religious affiliation.

Minuet
Jan 7 2008, 08:18 PM
This appears to be what you are asking Muslims to do. Your comments here are pure bigotry in that you are taking a group of people and labeling them all for the actions of a sick individual.
Yes, asking members of a religion/culture/region to quit carrying out heinous acts so we no longer associate them with that religion/culture/region is pure bigotry. :rolleyes:

Quote:
 
Most "honour" killings of women occur in Muslim countries, the focus of this case study; but it is worth noting that no sanction for such murders is granted in Islamic religion or law. And the phenomenon is in any case a global one. According to Stephanie Nebehay, such killings "have been reported in Bangladesh, Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey and Uganda." Afghanistan, where the practice is condoned under the rule of the fundamentalist Taliban movement, can be added to the list, along with Iraq and Iran.
link

Minuet
Jan 7 2008, 08:18 PM
Comments like this are why I have no respect for you. I don't have time for fools and bigots.
Again, apparently it's a whole lot easier to throw out personal insults then it is to actually respond to points made. :shrug:
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RTW
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Vice Admiral
Minuet
Jan 7 2008, 08:19 PM
The truth hurts, doesn't it ;) :rolleyes:

Based on how easily you get worked up, I'd have to say yes. Anyhoo, that was the best (you know who) impression yet! Can you do some more?
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8247
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Apparently we look like this now
somerled
Jan 7 2008, 10:31 PM
8247
Jan 8 2008, 05:11 AM
STC
Jan 7 2008, 01:44 PM
RTW
Jan 7 2008, 06:17 PM
Why are so scared to apply the principles of Occam's Razor when talking about this?  Sure, it would be wrong for a jury to do so, but we're not on the jury.  Why is this man getting so much benefit of the doubt where others haven't?

Occam's Razor basically says that the simplest, most obvious explanation is usually the correct one. Sounds nice but that doesn't always work in practice.

I don't think people are 'scared' to apply Occam's razor. To be honest, just by my own judgement, this does sound like its probably an honour killing. Though we shouldn't rule out other possibilities - IE is quite right to remind us of innocent until proven guilty.

What interests me more is why people feel the need to post these stories? We all know about honour killings. We all think they are horrific. We all think that killing is horrific - period (someone please correct me if I've made an incorrect assumption about you :) ).

Why do I keep posting these stories?

Because at least once a month, I hear someone saying that Islam is a religion of peace, and how dare we generalize.

But, what I don't hear is Muslims condemning these actions, or the actions of terrorists.

How many times do we hear of fathers who are christian murdering their wives and children ?

Fathers killing their children is not specifically a crime that only muslims do. Not so long ago there was story here about a man who drove his car (containing his children aged between 2 and 9) into a lake or river , downing them.

Just because this a muslim family , it's a big story to some . :rolleyes:

We do speak out against those idiots who do this type of things.

The only time I hear an outcry from Muslims is when someone makes a Mohammed cartoon, and its "KILL THEM!!!"

Or, when Muslims are on a plane, changing seats, and creating a disturbance, and the people on the plane get nervous, and the Muslims are removed from the plane. Then, the Muslims and the ACLU sue the people on the plane.

Or, when a Muslim taxi driver refuses to give a ride to someone with alcohol, or a dog, and the driver gets fired for not doing his job.

Or, when a Muslim cashier refuses to ring up pork, and is fired for not doing his job.

Or, when they demand foot washing baths in public buildings, and someone refuses to build them at tax payer expense.


If the Muslims are condemning this, our media is not reporting it, so my hostility is directed at one of the two groups. If the Muslims are speaking out about this, I blame the media in this country for not covering it, and I can easily believe that this is the case. It doesn't help their template that the US is anti Muslim, and bigotted.

So, maybe this is what is really going on. If so, it doesn't surprise me.

I lost faith in the US media a long time ago.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
8247
Jan 8 2008, 04:01 PM
somerled
Jan 7 2008, 10:31 PM
8247
Jan 8 2008, 05:11 AM
STC
Jan 7 2008, 01:44 PM
RTW
Jan 7 2008, 06:17 PM
Why are so scared to apply the principles of Occam's Razor when talking about this?  Sure, it would be wrong for a jury to do so, but we're not on the jury.  Why is this man getting so much benefit of the doubt where others haven't?

Occam's Razor basically says that the simplest, most obvious explanation is usually the correct one. Sounds nice but that doesn't always work in practice.

I don't think people are 'scared' to apply Occam's razor. To be honest, just by my own judgement, this does sound like its probably an honour killing. Though we shouldn't rule out other possibilities - IE is quite right to remind us of innocent until proven guilty.

What interests me more is why people feel the need to post these stories? We all know about honour killings. We all think they are horrific. We all think that killing is horrific - period (someone please correct me if I've made an incorrect assumption about you :) ).

Why do I keep posting these stories?

Because at least once a month, I hear someone saying that Islam is a religion of peace, and how dare we generalize.

But, what I don't hear is Muslims condemning these actions, or the actions of terrorists.

How many times do we hear of fathers who are christian murdering their wives and children ?

Fathers killing their children is not specifically a crime that only muslims do. Not so long ago there was story here about a man who drove his car (containing his children aged between 2 and 9) into a lake or river , downing them.

Just because this a muslim family , it's a big story to some . :rolleyes:

We do speak out against those idiots who do this type of things.

The only time I hear an outcry from Muslims is when someone makes a Mohammed cartoon, and its "KILL THEM!!!"

Or, when Muslims are on a plane, changing seats, and creating a disturbance, and the people on the plane get nervous, and the Muslims are removed from the plane. Then, the Muslims and the ACLU sue the people on the plane.

Or, when a Muslim taxi driver refuses to give a ride to someone with alcohol, or a dog, and the driver gets fired for not doing his job.

Or, when a Muslim cashier refuses to ring up pork, and is fired for not doing his job.

Or, when they demand foot washing baths in public buildings, and someone refuses to build them at tax payer expense.


If the Muslims are condemning this, our media is not reporting it, so my hostility is directed at one of the two groups. If the Muslims are speaking out about this, I blame the media in this country for not covering it, and I can easily believe that this is the case. It doesn't help their template that the US is anti Muslim, and bigotted.

So, maybe this is what is really going on. If so, it doesn't surprise me.

I lost faith in the US media a long time ago.

Maybe you are selectively deaf and-or selectively blind , or need to widen the news sources you access and use , and maybe follow the news more closely , and maybe get to know some muslims.

Got a radio , find the channel for BBC 24HR WORLD NEWS SERVICE and tune in , I do this regularly.
You'll get news from the UK , Netherlands, Germany, USA , and a lot of other countries (they have a roster and all report in english).
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
Even if the BBC isn't offered in your area, you can always listen to them online. Articles from the BBC are best because not only do they actually report on world events in every part of the world but they have previous related stories linked to each article so that you can get the whole story instead of thirty second soundbytes. Just imagine.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
Dr. Noah
Jan 8 2008, 09:17 AM
Even if the BBC isn't offered in your area, you can always listen to them online. Articles from the BBC are best because not only do they actually report on world events in every part of the world but they have previous related stories linked to each article so that you can get the whole story instead of thirty second soundbytes. Just imagine.

So do any other number of media outlets.
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Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
RTW
Jan 8 2008, 12:07 AM
Minuet
Jan 7 2008, 08:18 PM
I guess it's a whole lot easier to throw out personal insults then it is to actually respond to points made.
I suppose that explains why you continually do it. STC specifically mentioned the Muslim fundamentalist segment - a point which you ignored. :shrug:

:headscratch:

This comment of yours makes no sense. What would you have me say? I agree with STC - the peaceful Muslims - which are the majority - should not have to apologize for the smaller number of people who subvert thier religion and use it as an excuse.

Maybe you misunderstood what STC was saying. What is YOUR comment on his statement? All you have done is produce a waving smiley and accuse me of ignoring his statement. Do you think in some way that STC is agreeing with you? If so you better read his comments over again.

Quote:
 
Minuet
Jan 7 2008, 08:18 PM
What actions do you expect? Do you go hunting down every killer who happens to be Christian and exact vigilante justice on them?
I'd like to, but that's not realistic and besides the point. My government, a government predominately made up of Christians, does it's best to hunt down killers within it's borders, regardless of religious affiliation.


No - it is not besides the point at all. You are asking law abiding Muslims to take responsibility for the crimes of those within their community who are not law abiding. You ask this of no other religion or ethnic group. Your country may be predominately made up of Christians but the fact is that your government and all of it's agencies are not Christian. The government and it's agencies are SECULAR and have taken on the responsibility of enforcing the law for ALL citizens regardless of religion or ethnicity. There are Muslims, Jews, Bhuddists, Hindu, etc all represented in your government and on all local police forces. Muslims do thier fair share the way everyone else does - through the secular agencies set up to do the job. They do not need to bear collective guilt for crimes any more then you need to bear collective guilt for Martha Stewart engaging in insider trading.

The day I have to bear collective guilt for the crimes of others within my ethnic community is the day I pack my bags and move to Israel. Because that is the day I will see the US and Canada heading towards the equivalent of Nazism. Thank G-d it is not happening on any official level. I can handle the few bozos who speak without thinking. But it would be unacceptable as government policy.

Quote:
 
Minuet
Jan 7 2008, 08:18 PM
This appears to be what you are asking Muslims to do. Your comments here are pure bigotry in that you are taking a group of people and labeling them all for the actions of a sick individual.
Yes, asking members of a religion/culture/region to quit carrying out heinous acts so we no longer associate them with that religion/culture/region is pure bigotry. :rolleyes:


And here is the bigotry again. Far more Christians then Muslims carry out crimes in your country. Yet I don't see you making the same comments about Christians. Do you remember the priests who molested young boys? Seems that no action other then what I see happening in the Muslim community happened. Did you click on my link? Did you hear the official Muslim view of these murders? Did you hear that Islam does not condone these acts? Did you hear a leader speaking out against these acts? If you clicked on the link and watched the video then your answer would be YES. Your comments are based on an unfounded impression that you seem to have that the answer is no. You are flat out WRONG in that impression.

The truth is in front of your face. You seem to be choosing to ignore it. In the absense of evidence to the contrary I have labled your reason for ignoring it to be bigotry. You are making false, uneducated accusations which appear to have no rhyme or reason to them. That is the very definition of bigotry.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Most "honour" killings of women occur in Muslim countries, the focus of this case study; but it is worth noting that no sanction for such murders is granted in Islamic religion or law. And the phenomenon is in any case a global one. According to Stephanie Nebehay, such killings "have been reported in Bangladesh, Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey and Uganda." Afghanistan, where the practice is condoned under the rule of the fundamentalist Taliban movement, can be added to the list, along with Iraq and Iran.
link


Quote:
 
but it is worth noting that no sanction for such murders is granted in Islamic religion or law


:headscratch: Your own source points out that the problem is not religious.

Source

Quote:
 
Faten Habash's father wept as he assured his daughter there would be no more beatings, no more threats to her life and that she was free to marry the man she loved, even if he was a Muslim. All he asked was that Faten return home.
Hassan Habash even gave his word to an emissary from a Bedouin tribe traditionally brought in to mediate in matters of family honour, a commitment regarded as sacrosanct in Palestinian society. But the next weekend, as Faten watched a Boy Scouts parade from the balcony of her Ramallah home, the 22-year-old Christian Palestinian was dragged into the living room and bludgeoned to death with an iron bar. Her father was arrested for the murder.


Hmmm - a Christian in Palestine killed in an honour killing. Perhaps the problem is CULTURAL rather then religious............

And if that is the case then yes - a small number will bring that culture here to North America and will have trouble acclimatizing. The vast majority however, do acclimatize properly and leave those aspects of thier culture behind in thier home countries. In fact the vast majority who come here are trying to escape those aspects of thier home country's culture. To ask them to bear collective guilt is prejudicial and henious.
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Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
8247
Jan 8 2008, 01:01 AM
somerled
Jan 7 2008, 10:31 PM
8247
Jan 8 2008, 05:11 AM
STC
Jan 7 2008, 01:44 PM
RTW
Jan 7 2008, 06:17 PM
Why are so scared to apply the principles of Occam's Razor when talking about this?  Sure, it would be wrong for a jury to do so, but we're not on the jury.  Why is this man getting so much benefit of the doubt where others haven't?

Occam's Razor basically says that the simplest, most obvious explanation is usually the correct one. Sounds nice but that doesn't always work in practice.

I don't think people are 'scared' to apply Occam's razor. To be honest, just by my own judgement, this does sound like its probably an honour killing. Though we shouldn't rule out other possibilities - IE is quite right to remind us of innocent until proven guilty.

What interests me more is why people feel the need to post these stories? We all know about honour killings. We all think they are horrific. We all think that killing is horrific - period (someone please correct me if I've made an incorrect assumption about you :) ).

Why do I keep posting these stories?

Because at least once a month, I hear someone saying that Islam is a religion of peace, and how dare we generalize.

But, what I don't hear is Muslims condemning these actions, or the actions of terrorists.

How many times do we hear of fathers who are christian murdering their wives and children ?

Fathers killing their children is not specifically a crime that only muslims do. Not so long ago there was story here about a man who drove his car (containing his children aged between 2 and 9) into a lake or river , downing them.

Just because this a muslim family , it's a big story to some . :rolleyes:

We do speak out against those idiots who do this type of things.

The only time I hear an outcry from Muslims is when someone makes a Mohammed cartoon, and its "KILL THEM!!!"

Or, when Muslims are on a plane, changing seats, and creating a disturbance, and the people on the plane get nervous, and the Muslims are removed from the plane. Then, the Muslims and the ACLU sue the people on the plane.

Or, when a Muslim taxi driver refuses to give a ride to someone with alcohol, or a dog, and the driver gets fired for not doing his job.

Or, when a Muslim cashier refuses to ring up pork, and is fired for not doing his job.

Or, when they demand foot washing baths in public buildings, and someone refuses to build them at tax payer expense.


If the Muslims are condemning this, our media is not reporting it, so my hostility is directed at one of the two groups. If the Muslims are speaking out about this, I blame the media in this country for not covering it, and I can easily believe that this is the case. It doesn't help their template that the US is anti Muslim, and bigotted.

So, maybe this is what is really going on. If so, it doesn't surprise me.

I lost faith in the US media a long time ago.

Thank you for considering the possibility that the problem here is the media not reporting the good side of the news.

I appreciate your open mindedness. :)
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Admiralbill_gomec
Jan 8 2008, 09:30 AM
Dr. Noah
Jan 8 2008, 09:17 AM
Even if the BBC isn't offered in your area, you can always listen to them online.  Articles from the BBC are best because not only do they actually report on world events in every part of the world but they have previous related stories linked to each article so that you can get the whole story instead of thirty second soundbytes.  Just imagine.

So do any other number of media outlets.

I want to add that the BBC is not always the best. They have thier own biases.

AB is right in suggesting that there are many news sources one can get the full picture from. The BBC can be a part of that - but to suggest it provides a complete and accurate picture on it's own is wrong.
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somerled
Member Avatar
Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet
Jan 9 2008, 01:09 AM
Admiralbill_gomec
Jan 8 2008, 09:30 AM
Dr. Noah
Jan 8 2008, 09:17 AM
Even if the BBC isn't offered in your area, you can always listen to them online.  Articles from the BBC are best because not only do they actually report on world events in every part of the world but they have previous related stories linked to each article so that you can get the whole story instead of thirty second soundbytes.  Just imagine.

So do any other number of media outlets.

I want to add that the BBC is not always the best. They have thier own biases.

AB is right in suggesting that there are many news sources one can get the full picture from. The BBC can be a part of that - but to suggest it provides a complete and accurate picture on it's own is wrong.

The My BBC's 24HR WORLD NEWS SERVICE does not edit or control in anyway the segments of news from other countries that broadcast as part of the service.

Just in case you missed , the link is provided , so you have no excuse and can access it if you want to.



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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
8247
Jan 7 2008, 02:11 PM
STC
Jan 7 2008, 01:44 PM
RTW
Jan 7 2008, 06:17 PM
Why are so scared to apply the principles of Occam's Razor when talking about this?  Sure, it would be wrong for a jury to do so, but we're not on the jury.  Why is this man getting so much benefit of the doubt where others haven't?

Occam's Razor basically says that the simplest, most obvious explanation is usually the correct one. Sounds nice but that doesn't always work in practice.

I don't think people are 'scared' to apply Occam's razor. To be honest, just by my own judgement, this does sound like its probably an honour killing. Though we shouldn't rule out other possibilities - IE is quite right to remind us of innocent until proven guilty.

What interests me more is why people feel the need to post these stories? We all know about honour killings. We all think they are horrific. We all think that killing is horrific - period (someone please correct me if I've made an incorrect assumption about you :) ).

Why do I keep posting these stories?

Because at least once a month, I hear someone saying that Islam is a religion of peace, and how dare we generalize.

But, what I don't hear is Muslims condemning these actions, or the actions of terrorists.

One problem is that you are assuming this is a "Muslim" or "Islamic" matter. From your original article:
Quote:
 
police were looking into whether Mr. Said was upset with the dating activities and Western ways of the two teens.
It's far from conclusive. It's just a possibility under consideration. Why should Muslim's around the world stand up and condemn an action that 1) hasn't even been proven to be this father murdering his daughters and 2) even if it is that case, hasn't been proven to have anything to do with the religion of Islam or being a Muslim? Maybe he just murdered them out of mental illness or some other non-religion related reason.
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Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
somerled
Jan 8 2008, 11:24 AM
Minuet
Jan 9 2008, 01:09 AM
Admiralbill_gomec
Jan 8 2008, 09:30 AM
Dr. Noah
Jan 8 2008, 09:17 AM
Even if the BBC isn't offered in your area, you can always listen to them online.  Articles from the BBC are best because not only do they actually report on world events in every part of the world but they have previous related stories linked to each article so that you can get the whole story instead of thirty second soundbytes.  Just imagine.

So do any other number of media outlets.

I want to add that the BBC is not always the best. They have thier own biases.

AB is right in suggesting that there are many news sources one can get the full picture from. The BBC can be a part of that - but to suggest it provides a complete and accurate picture on it's own is wrong.

The My BBC's 24HR WORLD NEWS SERVICE does not edit or control in anyway the segments of news from other countries that broadcast as part of the service.

Just in case you missed , the link is provided , so you have no excuse and can access it if you want to.

I don't understand your point Somerled. This is still all BBC - they are not broadcasting the POV of other networks and stations.

I said that they were PART of a balanced picture. Just not an entire balanced picture. I've discussed my feelings about certain biases in the BBC previously and don't need to go into it again here. Suffice it to say that the BBC is not the be all and the end all of news coverage.
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Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
ImpulseEngine
Jan 8 2008, 11:35 AM
8247
Jan 7 2008, 02:11 PM
STC
Jan 7 2008, 01:44 PM
RTW
Jan 7 2008, 06:17 PM
Why are so scared to apply the principles of Occam's Razor when talking about this?  Sure, it would be wrong for a jury to do so, but we're not on the jury.  Why is this man getting so much benefit of the doubt where others haven't?

Occam's Razor basically says that the simplest, most obvious explanation is usually the correct one. Sounds nice but that doesn't always work in practice.

I don't think people are 'scared' to apply Occam's razor. To be honest, just by my own judgement, this does sound like its probably an honour killing. Though we shouldn't rule out other possibilities - IE is quite right to remind us of innocent until proven guilty.

What interests me more is why people feel the need to post these stories? We all know about honour killings. We all think they are horrific. We all think that killing is horrific - period (someone please correct me if I've made an incorrect assumption about you :) ).

Why do I keep posting these stories?

Because at least once a month, I hear someone saying that Islam is a religion of peace, and how dare we generalize.

But, what I don't hear is Muslims condemning these actions, or the actions of terrorists.

One problem is that you are assuming this is a "Muslim" or "Islamic" matter. From your original article:
Quote:
 
police were looking into whether Mr. Said was upset with the dating activities and Western ways of the two teens.
It's far from conclusive. It's just a possibility under consideration. Why should Muslim's around the world stand up and condemn an action that 1) hasn't even been proven to be this father murdering his daughters and 2) even if it is that case, hasn't been proven to have anything to do with the religion of Islam or being a Muslim? Maybe he just murdered them out of mental illness or some other non-religion related reason.

Impulseengine - I think you are missing the point to a certain extent as well.

The point is not whether or not it is true that Mr. Said was upset about his children's western lifestyle. Even if he was, and I am leaning towards that very strong possibility, then still the entire Muslim community is NOT to blame. He is still only one man who is unable to throw off the shackles of a CULTURE not a religion.

The Muslim community is not to blame for this. Muslims do not kill thier children more often then parents in other communities. You see stories in the paper every day about parents killing thier children. It's sad but true. Mothers with depression are actually the largest segment of the population that engages in this sad sad act. I, as a mother, am not blamed for the act of another mother. Why should Muslims be blamed when these things occur? He was a sick man mentally and unable to adapt himself. That is not the fault of the Muslim community at large.
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