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Muslim man in Dallas kills daughters; for acting like Americans
Topic Started: Jan 4 2008, 11:56 AM (2,528 Views)
Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
8247
Jan 7 2008, 02:11 PM
STC
Jan 7 2008, 01:44 PM
RTW
Jan 7 2008, 06:17 PM
Why are so scared to apply the principles of Occam's Razor when talking about this?  Sure, it would be wrong for a jury to do so, but we're not on the jury.  Why is this man getting so much benefit of the doubt where others haven't?

Occam's Razor basically says that the simplest, most obvious explanation is usually the correct one. Sounds nice but that doesn't always work in practice.

I don't think people are 'scared' to apply Occam's razor. To be honest, just by my own judgement, this does sound like its probably an honour killing. Though we shouldn't rule out other possibilities - IE is quite right to remind us of innocent until proven guilty.

What interests me more is why people feel the need to post these stories? We all know about honour killings. We all think they are horrific. We all think that killing is horrific - period (someone please correct me if I've made an incorrect assumption about you :) ).

Why do I keep posting these stories?

Because at least once a month, I hear someone saying that Islam is a religion of peace, and how dare we generalize.

But, what I don't hear is Muslims condemning these actions, or the actions of terrorists.

Either things are different in the US then they are in Canada or your ears are simply closed to the condemnations that most definitely come from the majority of Muslims.

I wasn't going to mention this but recently we had a case in Toronto where a teenage girl was killed by her father in similar circumstances to the case cited here.

My local newspaper was filled with letters to the editor about this case. Most letters were from Muslims who condemned the individual involved.

I am not sure exactly what you feel you need to hear from Muslims. Yes, a lot of letters were defensive of Islam - but not of the murderer. I think maybe you are the one not separating the two. Just because a Muslim gets defensive of thier religion after something like this occurs it does not mean that they are being defensive of the murderer.

It is indeed sad that some people are unable to bridge the CULTURAL gap between where they came from and where they are now. I emphasize CULTURAL as opposed to religious on purpose.
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8247
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Apparently we look like this now
^^^

Well, maybe your media is better than ours in the way it covers the news. I would love to see some letters to the editor from Muslims expressing outrage over the actions of the whackos. But, either our media won't cover those letters, or the Muslims here aren't writing them.
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Minuet
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Just curious - do you get most of your news online or do you read old fashioned printed newspapers.

I ask because I just tried to find letters to the editor online for several large newspapers - The Houston Chronicle (since it is in Texas and I am familiar with it) The Washington Times (the source of your article) and the New York Times (It's just big and well known :lol: ) I couldn't find much in the way of letters to the editor shown online. If your main source is online you just might be missing that aspect of your news - especially if you don't specifically go looking for letters to the editor. If you don't specifically go looking online for the condemnations you are likely not going to find them........
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8247
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Apparently we look like this now
I read the local rag here about twice a week.
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Minuet
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Well I read my local "rag" every day and I always take time to read the letters page because it gives the opinion of real people and not the opinion of the journalists of the paper.

With that said I went looking for a bit more information on how Muslims feel about these "honour" murders. Interestingly with the keywords "Muslim condemnation of Said murders" I came up with a Muslim site that didn't mention your case here - but did have a video about the Asqua Parvez murder here in Toronto. The condemnation is quite clear.

http://www.truveo.com/The-Murder-of-Sister...ez/id/660782714

Edit - one last thought - maybe because of the timing Muslims overlooked this particular case because they were too busy condemning the murder of Benazir Bhutto ;)
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STC
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I regularly hear and see Muslims condeming atrocities such as this. I don't have to look for such instances, they are commonplace in our media coverage.

Not that I see why Muslims should be continually bending over backwards to apologise for their fundamentalist segment, any more than Christians or Irish people should have been required to apologise for 30+ years of IRA and Unionist atrocities.
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RTW
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Condemning and apologizing are vastly different.

Hearing muslim leaders speak out against terrorist attrocities would be somewhat reassuring. Having a billion or so peaceful muslims actually take action against extremists would be even more reassuring. :shrug:

It's a fine line between enabling and supporting. Outsiders often can't tell the difference.
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Minuet
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^^^ This subject is not about terrorists. It is about a murder that took place in the US and involved a father and his daughters - not terrorizing of the general population.

I agree with STC - it is not up to all Muslims to apologize for the actions of one man. It is enough that they condemned the act and made clear that he was acting outside of Islam. And that was made very clear in the video I linked to above. The message was sent within thier community that these murders are wrong and not tolerated.

But even if we were to extend this to terrorism - STC is still correct. Why should the Muslim living next door to you or I apologize for the actions of a man living thousands of miles away who is doing atrocities that they do not participate in?

It astounds me how people don't recognize the bigotry inherent in blaming an entire group for the illegal actions of a small group. If Islam is to be blamed for these acts then all Christianity should be blamed for what happened at Waco with the Branch Davidians. And they should be blamed every time a Christian murders someone.

Right?
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Minuet
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I just had a thought. We have had many discussions here in the past about the media and it's biases. Could it be that some Americans are not hearing about Muslims condemning these acts because the media is biased against Muslims and does not want to publicize those Muslims who do make comments condemning these acts?

It does seem to me that those who constantly make the claim that Muslims don't condemn these acts are the people who have been quite open about thier own right wing biases and thier admirations for certain networks, commentators and shows. Maybe you guys are not getting the full picture because you reject those shows that you find left wing? You are missing half the picture when you do that.
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RTW
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STC
Jan 7 2008, 03:40 PM
Not that I see why Muslims should be continually bending over backwards to apologise for their fundamentalist segment, any more than Christians or Irish people should have been required to apologise for 30+ years of IRA and Unionist atrocities.

:wave2:

Minuet
Jan 7 2008, 04:31 PM
^^^ This subject is not about terrorists. It is about a murder that took place in the US and involved a father and his daughters - not terrorizing of the general population.

You can cease this mothering behavior at your convenience. ;)

Minuet
Jan 7 2008, 04:31 PM
It is enough that they condemned the act and made clear that he was acting outside of Islam. And that was made very clear in the video I linked to above. The message was sent within thier community that these murders are wrong and not tolerated.

Are they cultural and not religious? Can the two be separated in such a devoutly religious culture?

Again, actions speak louder than words. These actions were learned/taught somewhere. When Muslims stop perpetuating honor killings then the world can believe that they're outside the bounds of Islam.
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RTW
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Minuet
Jan 7 2008, 04:38 PM
It does seem to me that those who constantly make the claim that Muslims don't condemn these acts are the people who have been quite open about thier own right wing biases and thier admirations for certain networks, commentators and shows. Maybe you guys are not getting the full picture because you reject those shows that you find left wing? You are missing half the picture when you do that.

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Bravo! Bravo! Encore! Encore!
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Franko
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Actually, Min, to simplify it even further, I don't even look upon crimes like these as really having a whole lot to do with religion.

Killing your only children is a psychotic and insane act. It's evident that (if in fact the father is guilty) this guy was likely the typical profile: Depression disorders, a frustrating life that seems aimless; and above all, a control freak. I doubt that he got the idea of snuffing his daughters from something he read in the Koran one day. This kind of atrocity is the act of someone who hates themselves, their life, their family, and the world.

Same m.o. as these guys who go onto a college campus or workplace and start blasting people.





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Minuet
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RTW
Jan 7 2008, 09:46 PM
Minuet
Jan 7 2008, 04:31 PM
^^^ This subject is not about terrorists. It is about a murder that took place in the US and involved a father and his daughters - not terrorizing of the general population.

You can cease this mothering behavior at your convenience. ;)


:indifferent:

I guess it's a whole lot easier to throw out personal insults then it is to actually respond to points made.

Quote:
 
Minuet
Jan 7 2008, 04:31 PM
It is enough that they condemned the act and made clear that he was acting outside of Islam. And that was made very clear in the video I linked to above. The message was sent within thier community that these murders are wrong and not tolerated.

Are they cultural and not religious? Can the two be separated in such a devoutly religious culture?

Again, actions speak louder than words. These actions were learned/taught somewhere. When Muslims stop perpetuating honor killings then the world can believe that they're outside the bounds of Islam.


What actions do you expect? Do you go hunting down every killer who happens to be Christian and exact vigilante justice on them? This appears to be what you are asking Muslims to do. Your comments here are pure bigotry in that you are taking a group of people and labeling them all for the actions of a sick individual.

Comments like this are why I have no respect for you. I don't have time for fools and bigots.
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Minuet
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RTW
Jan 7 2008, 09:47 PM
Minuet
Jan 7 2008, 04:38 PM
It does seem to me that those who constantly make the claim that Muslims don't condemn these acts are the people who have been quite open about thier own right wing biases and thier admirations for certain networks, commentators and shows. Maybe you guys are not getting the full picture because you reject those shows that you find left wing? You are missing half the picture when you do that.

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Bravo! Bravo! Encore! Encore!

The truth hurts, doesn't it ;) :rolleyes:
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Minuet
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Franko
Jan 7 2008, 09:51 PM
Actually, Min, to simplify it even further, I don't even look upon crimes like these as really having a whole lot to do with religion.

Killing your only children is a psychotic and insane act. It's evident that (if in fact the father is guilty) this guy was likely the typical profile: Depression disorders, a frustrating life that seems aimless; and above all, a control freak. I doubt that he got the idea of snuffing his daughters from something he read in the Koran one day. This kind of atrocity is the act of someone who hates themselves, their life, their family, and the world.

Same m.o. as these guys who go onto a college campus or workplace and start blasting people.

Thank goodness there are a few intelligent people on this board who can understand the complexities of such cases.
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