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| Muslim man in Dallas kills daughters; for acting like Americans | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 4 2008, 11:56 AM (2,518 Views) | |
| Wichita | Jan 15 2008, 09:19 PM Post #166 |
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The Adminstrator wRench
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Actually, the piece I posted from Wizbang Blue is just an "opinion" piece. I say that because it does not include any links to the information quoted as "facts". I posted it because earlier in this thread it was implied that ONLY conservatives seem to think that this is a problem. I stil think that it is important to discuss and work on ALL causes of domestic violence. I also think that it is important to recognize that, while some forms of domestic violence share characteristics, it doesn't meant that the forms are exacly equal. Each form needs a strategy for resolution tailored to that form. If everytime someone mentions one specific form of domestic violence others scream "bigot" at him/her, open discussion will be inhibited and resolution of that form of domestic violence will be next to impossible. And that would be a tragedy. |
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| Franko | Jan 15 2008, 09:31 PM Post #167 |
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Shower Moderator
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I don't completely agree with that assessment as far as the media is concerned. Out here, any domestic murder, whether Sikh or WASP, gets front page headlines and is usually relfected upon for days afterward in the media and on our local news. The idea somehow that domestic violence is being ignored in Canada unless it's committed by ethnic minorities, is hogwash. The police out here at any rate, have been given sweeping powers to level charges at any degree of domestic violence. Almost every spousal murder out here is investigated rigourously, thoroughly, and the convicted perpetrator usually given the maximum punishment. Add to that there is never an ounce of sympathy toward a man who murders his wife, let alone his children. In fact, it's likely considered in our culture to be the worst atrocity you can commit. Some pretty extreme moralizing in this thread, Min. We get your point, but just because someone wanted to discuss this syndrome which may be associated with another culture doesn't mean that they are insensitive to domestic violence in any form. I know that isn't what you're saying, but perceptions are often more lethal than substance on a message board. I think we have to be careful about seperating "rhetoric" from what constitutes "deeper" analysis. And yes, we do have the right to critcize aspects of another culture. Just as they can criticize ours. |
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| Minuet | Jan 15 2008, 10:37 PM Post #168 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Franko, my perception is based on an actual, citable case. The one I mentioned earlier in this thread - the murder of my co-worker Iliada Zois. I KNOW that her murder was the culmination of years of domestic violence. Yet for some reason the papers did not mention or discuss it. The papers had a great opportunity to draw some parallels between two domestic violence murders that happened a week apart. The complete lack of discussion of domestic violence in the Iliada Zois murder is exactly the kind of coverage that I do think leads to an "us and them" attitude. We set Muslims apart as "different". I saw it happen first hand here. In the city that claims to be a mini United Nations and which is one of the most culturally diverse on the continent. |
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| Minuet | Jan 15 2008, 10:45 PM Post #169 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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I don't disagree with you Wichita. And I accept the smackdown (I know I was the one that made the conservative comment - I apologize for that) But as you can see what bothers me is the lack of discussion of the cause of some cases. The bigotry is not in discussing the problem in minority communities. It is in the lack of recognition of it as an equal problem in the majority communities. It becomes finger pointing instead. And finger pointing doesn't help women in either the majority or the minority communities. |
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| Wichita | Jan 16 2008, 06:25 AM Post #170 |
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The Adminstrator wRench
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Minuet, I think your are responding to this situation based on an assumption that is not correct - or, at least, not fully correct. In the last few days, an incident of has been made known about the death of 4-5 children as a result of the mother's mental illness. From what I have seen so far, it wasn't a situation like Andrea Yates where the children were killed in the matter of a few minutes. They are still trying to determine the causes of the deaths of the children but, what I have seen so far seems to indicate that starvation may have been a significant factor in those deaths. That doesn't happen quickly and there is already an indication that a case worker started LAST APRIL trying to sound the alarm that these children were in danger and something needed to be done. Now, I could tell you quite honestly that I hear stories like this one every month or so. But what do I mean by saying that? Does it mean that I only hear stories of mothers killing there children every month or so? No, sadly I hear stories about that more often than monthly Does it meant that I hear stories of mothers being mentally ill and causing harm to their children as a result? No, sadly I hear stories about that even more often mothers killing their children. (In the last 2 week I would estimate I have seen a dozen such stories on a national news site. BTW, the site has been criticized as being too "sensational" as a result of their posting such stories.) Does it meant that I believe that only the mentally ill community would abuse their children? That's more difficult because I think you have to be mentally ill to harm a child, but the answer to the question is still "no". Some people are just cruel beyond understanding. Does it mean that I don't care about the other children abused every day? "No" to that as well. What I find significant about the story is that a professional worker with the job to protect the children RECOGNIZED that there was a problem, made serious attempts to get help for the family and was ignored. And sadly, I do hear cases like that virtually monthly. Now, if we look at the specific problem in that situation - the system with the responsibility to protect the child breaking down and not protecting the child - we can look a specific points when things went wrong and try to devise methods to fix those specific problems. If I can't discuss the system breaking down without also including a discussing the entire problem of child abuse, not only will it confuse the specific problem, but I would theorize might make it far more difficult to actually "fix" the problems in this case. In the case in question, ONE office in the system clearly screwed up. The local oversight committee can look at training, education, evaluation of staff in that ONE office. The local funding agencies could look at the possibility that more money could have helped. The "fixes" for that problem in that one office could be used as a template for all the other offices where there has a been a similiar breakdown in the system. Will it stop the system from ever being broken again? No, but it will improve the system for the children in the care of those offices. The problem will have gotten some press and other offices may be less likely to ignore the warnings of a case worker. Other people in the communty (schools, religous insititutions, etc.) may devote greater resources to support of such families. So why do I think it will make the actual problem in this case - the system breaking down - more difficult to fix? Because I have no doubt those who failed to heed the warnings of this caseworker in the instance will use the sheer number of abused children they have to care for as their excuse for not having done their job in this specific instance. We shouldn't legitimize that defense in my opinion. If we do, I think more children will be hurt or killed. |
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| Dr. Noah | Jan 16 2008, 08:24 AM Post #171 |
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Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
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Really Dan? Tell you what, why don't we put your theory to the test. Why don't you tell me what you think living in Taiwan is like and I'll let you know when you're getting warm. Actually your response to my "crude" analogy strengthens my argument. Strawberry ice cream may taste similar to strawberries but it doesn't taste the same. As grape soda does doesn't taste the same as grapes or watermelon bubble gum doesn't taste the same as watermelon. Similar, but not the same. I know people who don't like oranges but love orange juice, or love mango sorbet but don't like mangos, etc. You say you would be able to tell by smell whether you would like the taste of something. I know by experience that that isn't the case. Fermented tofu is a big hit here, and it smells awful, but it actually doesn't taste too bad. Who knows? You might like jumping off a bridge. Naturally if you're harmed you know you won't like it but thousands of people jump off bridges every year and love it. (With elastic cords attached to them) Simply put, you may think you know what an experience is like, but only in your own mind. Reality is, you don't know what an experience is unless you actually experience it. While we're on the subject, what do you think it's like to climb Mount Everest? Scuba dive off the coast of Hawaii? I'm curious as to what your mind tells you what these experiences would be like. |
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| Minuet | Jan 16 2008, 09:13 AM Post #172 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Wichta - the question I ask is, do comments like "religion of peace my @$$" do anything to solve the issues? What is fueling that attitude? Some cases are sensationalized more then others. I am putting forward my impression that when the case involves a Muslim it is sensationalized more often then when the case involves other groups. I am not saying to ignore honour murders. I am saying that they are being blown out of proportion and because of that we are not doing anything to actually solve the problem. Instead we are engaging in finger pointing. My proof is in the misconceptions from the beginning of this thread. Multiple people posited that Muslims (in western countries)never speak out against honour murders.
In a sense isn't that what happened in this thread? It's easier to dismiss the problem as systemic then it is to look at the deeper issues involved. And it's doubly bad when the so called systemic issues don't really exist. Excuses and finger pointing. While the bodies pile up.
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| Wichita | Jan 16 2008, 09:36 AM Post #173 |
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The Adminstrator wRench
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By singling out that one comment, you are doing precisely what you are accusing others of doing. NO ONE said that comment based SOLELY on honor killings. Why aren't you discussing the other incidents that would lead someone to make that statement? (I am not attacking you. I am simply pointing out an area of your argument that I find to be inconsistent.) Why aren't you discussing the beheading of Daniel Pearl or Nick Berg? Where is the discussion of the murders of Christian girls in the Phillipines? What about the ongoing problems in Thailand? And so on and so on and so on. So many actions of violence are said to be done in the name of Islam - a religion that claims to be a "religion of peace". Now, I am not expert on Islam nor would I pretend to be. EVERY SINGLE person who has made that claim (of doing violence in the name of Islam) may be wrong in doing so. But, if no Knowledgeable personspeaks out to educate me differently, then I have no way of knowing that. (Yes, theorectically, I could learn the proper language and devote my life to studying the Koran, but, based on what I have heard on the subject, I have little expectation that I would understand it perfectly even then.)
I don't think that you meant that the way that it sounds. As to why nothing is done .... a huge part of the reason is that anyone who dares to try and address the issue is called a "bigot" for one thing. Another reason is that people are self-censoring. Recently Lawrence O'Donnell, a TV analyst, launched a ridiculous rant against Mormons (not Romney, Mormons). Later, he was asked about it and even he admitted that he practiced self-censorship. The harrassment of Ali Hrsi, the murder of Theo Van Gogh, the reaction to the Mohammed cartoons, etc, have all made him stop and think about what he says about Islam - something he sees no need to do when talking about other religions. And he isn't the only one ....
If we haven't investigated the situation, how can we claim to "know" that systemic issues don't really exist? |
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| Minuet | Jan 16 2008, 10:18 AM Post #174 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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And here is another issue that started me off on this thread. I provided links that showed that Muslims do speak out. They are working in thier community. And how do all of us who speak in their defence get our information if not from Muslims who do speak out and educate us? Where does this impression come from that Muslims do not speak out? Are American Muslims truely quieter on the issues then Canadian? Or do they just get less coverage in your media? If the answer is the media then we must question why? I saw Muslims speak out when Aqsa Parvez was murdered by her father here in Toronto. STC stated that he hears Muslims speak out all the time in the British press. What is different in the US? And by comparison - who spoke out publically in the papers about the abuse that eventually killed Iliada Zois? She was Greek Orthodox. Should I condemn them all for not saying anything? Should I condemn the black community since her abuser was black? That was a fact avoided by the newspapers - it's ok to talk about Muslims but it's wrong to state factually that a criminal was black - do you see something wrong here? I do. I see one community doing something and another two avoiding the issues. Aided and abetted by our media. The media is correct to report the murder of the two girls in this case. they are correct to call attention to the issues. But do they do so in a balanced manner or are they doing so in a way that builds a false impression about a community? Was there truely no condemnation in the Muslim community? Or did the press simply not report on the condemnation? |
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| Wichita | Jan 16 2008, 11:29 PM Post #175 |
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The Adminstrator wRench
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I really don't know how to respond to what you said. First, it didn't relate to anything that I said so I don't understand why you quoted one paragraph from my post. Second, I don't understand the purpose or value of claiming some type of superiority in comparing countries. Your assumption that I was speaking of Muslims from ANY particular country is just that - an assumption. Therefore any discussion of American Muslims, in reference to my comments, is irrelevant.
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| Minuet | Jan 16 2008, 11:55 PM Post #176 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Wichita - I have stuck to the same POV and message this entire thread. If you are talking about events other then what has occured in North America then you are confused and changing the topic. That is not MY fault. The topic is about events that happened in the US - a Western country. I have commented on the reaction to the story and my dismay at the way such stories are presented in the press. I am concerned about the reaction of some posters here. And for the record I never commented that Canada or the UK were superior to the US. Quite the contrary. I am trying to give credit for them all to be the same and specifically asked if you saw the US as different since you seem to be getting a different message there. I find it hard to believe that Muslims in the US are different then those in other western countries. Hence my QUESTIONS, not CONCLUSIONS. This is the second time in this thread that you have tried to pull this nonsense with me. I don't find it amusing when you suggest I have said the exact opposite of what I actually did say. |
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| Wichita | Jan 17 2008, 06:14 AM Post #177 |
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The Adminstrator wRench
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Not in my opinion. However, I won't argue about that. People are perfectly capable of reading your earlier responses and deciding for themselves.
WHAT??????? Throughout this thread we have been discussing the subject of honor killings in general. Now I am not "permitted" to discuss honor killlings anywhere else but North America? You specifically asked:
... but, in responding to your question, I can't even explain "why" (which includes events outside North America) someone may have that view? What harm is there in discussing the root causes of an attitude that you seem to be saying concerns you? If you want to be technical, this topic was about honor killings in the US and therefore your expansion of the topic to killings in Canada and any discussion of domestic violence also means that YOU are "confused and changing the topic". ALL that I said was that I NEVER referred specifically to US Muslims in my comments. Now, I am "confused" and "changing the topic"? And one more thing .......
Did you also tell STC that he was "confused and changing the topic" when he discussed events that occurred in the UK? The UK isn't in North America the last time that I checked. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Forget the UK. Remember, it's not in North America so any mention of anything having to do with the UK means that you are "confused and changing the topic". ![]() There's lots of ways of "asking questions". One of the ways taught in communication classes is to state what someone else has said as you understand it and then let the other person tell you if you gotten it right. Since never at anytime have I restricted my comments to Muslims of any country, of course, your asking me questions about "American Muslims" was confusing. (And that's not just because Canadian Muslims are also "American Muslims".) So I stated what you seemed to be saying and told you that I didn't understand "why" you were doing it - just as I have been taught in communication classes. I wasn't stating a CONCLUSION either. Now that you tell me that only events in North America are on-topic, your inclusion of STC's comments about the UK make your statement even more confusing to me.
And I don't find it amusing to have my posts quoted in responses that have ZERO to do with what I said but are actually attempt to get back at posters who are no longer in the discussion. Now, you are telling me that I am "confused and changing the topic" for discussing events outside North America, but I don't recall you voicing the same concern when STC was discussing events outside of North America. I told you in my first posts in this thread that your generalizations were hurting your argument. Nothing you have said has changed my opinion. |
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| Minuet | Jan 17 2008, 09:16 AM Post #178 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Interesting comment. You came on to this thread and decided to respond directly to me on some of my comments. I never said that anything was off topic. What I said was that I was making specific comments. Forgive me if I thought that your comments MADE TO ME should reflect what I am saying. By taking it in another direction you are doing to me exacty what you state above. You quoted my posts in responses that had nothing to do with what I said. :rolleyes:
Sorry to split your quote in two - but there were two points made and they needed separate responses. I want to make it clear that I was not "getting back" at anyone. Quite the contrary. I simply asked some direct questions about where they get thier impressions from. If anything I have gone out of my way to blame the media rather then the posters. That's your third unfounded, direct accusation. It's not helping your position in the least. It's just making it more confusing. |
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