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Muslim man in Dallas kills daughters; for acting like Americans
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Topic Started: Jan 4 2008, 11:56 AM (2,520 Views)
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Minuet
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Jan 14 2008, 12:16 PM
Post #151
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- RTW
- Jan 13 2008, 10:01 PM
- Minuet
- Jan 13 2008, 06:53 PM
Fear can make people do a lot of things you think they should not.
Fear of not finding love elsewhere (yes, I know it's not love - but the feelings of these women are complicated and they think it is love)
Fear of being harmed much the way she was when she did try to leave - she had 2 brothers come to back her up and yet her fears came to pass.
In both the honour killing and the spousal murders there is one common theme. Control. It seems simple to say leave. And for many women it is easy (it would be for me). But not every woman is the same. Some are less strong minded.
I only saw Iliada a couple of times (the store only opened in November) My personal impression was that of a quiet young lady. We didn't work in the same department and never spoke, except a hello in passing. She did always look tired. Others said that she was a beautiful person and the type always willing to jump in and help. A very accomodating person. In hindsight maybe looking for approval? Who knows. I don't claim to know and am only speculating.
That response was both pleasant and enlightening. Thank you.
Here is another reason women don't leave. Nowhere to go.....
Source
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Shelters can't help all fleeing abuse Cutbacks, shift in policy narrow victims' options
Home / News / Local Shelters can't help all fleeing abuse Cutbacks, shift in policy narrow victims' options Anthia Elliott took a call at Safe Passage. The Northampton facility offers services for victims of domestic violence. (christine peterson/for the boston globe) Email|Print| Text size – + By Maria Cramer Globe Staff / January 14, 2008 Domestic violence shelters across the state are becoming overwhelmed and are increasingly turning victims away, driving some of those seeking help back to abusive partners or to the streets, according to advocates and shelter program directors.
more stories like thisThe number of victims turned away from shelters more than quadrupled, from 1,374 in fiscal 2003 to 5,520 in fiscal 2005, according to Jane Doe Inc., a statewide coalition against sexual assault and domestic violence that also tracks trends.
On many days, only one bed will be available in the state for 100 people who call domestic violence hotlines seeking shelter. Sometimes, none can be found.
"It is alarming," said Deborah Collins-Gousby, interim co-executive director at Casa Myrna Vazquez in Boston, which has three residential programs and runs Safe Link, the statewide domestic violence hotline. "If you're feeling the need to flee and there is no space, what do you do?"
The problem, advocates said, has worsened in recent years for several reasons. Federal funding for shelters has ebbed; the state has had an influx of undocumented immigrants who are too afraid of police to report their abusers but will seek shelters; there is less affordable housing statewide, meaning victims often stay in shelters longer; and several shelters were forced to close after losing funding from the Department of Social Services, which in 2006 shifted its resources to community-based services, such as counseling and legal services for abuse victims, so they can remain at home.
Agencies and advocates go to great lengths trying to ensure that a victim does not have to return to an abuser. When a shelter runs out of beds and cots, victims stay at volunteers' homes temporarily. Victims are also sent to shelters in Connecticut or New Hampshire, or advised to stay with friends or relatives that the abuser does not know. If a victim must return to a home shared with an abuser, advocates work with police to provide protection, offer to help file restraining orders, and provide counseling services.
But even then, a victim might not be safe, said Brenda Lopez, domestic violence prevention coordinator at the Springfield Police Department, where officers have provided food for women and children forced to wait hours at headquarters for shelter space to open up.
Last July, Lopez recalled, a young pregnant woman who went to the hospital after her partner hit her returned home after her abuser told police he would leave the house. Two days later, he came back and beat her so severely she almost miscarried, Lopez said.
"You're punished when you go back," she said. "You're punished because you tried to leave. It also verifies for the person what their abuser has told them: 'Nobody is going to want you. Nobody is going to help you. You can't live without me.' "
Maria, a domestic abuse victim who left her husband 12 years ago, said that when she and her young daughter fled, they immediately found refuge at a shelter in Western Massachusetts. Now a victim's advocate, she said it often takes her several days, even weeks to find space for victims.
more stories like this"It's just pathetic," said Maria, who asked that her last name and the name of the agency she works for be withheld because she does not want her abuser to find her. "It is so sad to see these women being traumatized and abused by their partners and then being traumatized and abused by the system."
Since 2003, federal funding for domestic violence programs in Massachusetts, which helped pay for shelters, has decreased. From fiscal 2003 to fiscal 2006, funding from the US Department of Health and Human Services went from $1.85 million to $1.78 million. During the same three-year period, a grant from the Department of Justice decreased from $2.8 million to $2.54 million, according to Jane Doe Inc.
In 2006, after DSS, under former governor Mitt Romney, renegotiated contracts that shifted funding from shelters, several agencies lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in shelter funding. The change forced Casa Myrna Vasquez to close its seven-bed emergency shelter.
The Asian Task Force Against Domestic Violence, which provides beds for men, women, and children, lost state funding for one of its shelters, a four-bed safe home, during the rebidding. The agency found enough private funding to keep it open, but the solution may be temporary, said Cristina Lee, assistant director of advocacy services at the task force.
"We can't afford to keep it going," she said.
Officials at DSS, which funds about 90 percent of shelter beds across the state, said funding for shelters increased from $6.57 million in fiscal 2007 to $8.27 million in fiscal 2008. But officials said they had no statistics indicating how much the shelters received before fiscal 2007 because, under Romney, DSS did not break down funding for shelters for domestic violence victims.
Marilyn Anderson Chase, assistant secretary for children, youth, and families, said the agency is focusing its resources on preventing domestic violence, such as counseling children of abusers who are more likely to follow in a batterer's footsteps.
"I think everybody recognizes that having a robust shelter system is imperative," Anderson Chase said. "But I hope they would agree that our first priority is: How do we reduce incidence of domestic violence?"
It is a goal many advocates say they commend.
"More shelter beds is really not the solution," said Candace Waldron, executive director of Hawc, Help for Abused Women and their Children, in Salem. "The solution would be for community response teams that are comprehensive enough to keep victims and their children at home, while the perpetrator is held accountable for their behavior."
But until that happens, people need a place to go, she said.
"If someone is calling for shelter, you know they're at the end of the rope," Waldron said. "To say to them, 'Sorry, we don't have space,' is devastating."
Maria Cramer can be reached at mcramer@globe.com.
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ImpulseEngine
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Jan 14 2008, 12:21 PM
Post #152
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Admiral
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- Minuet
- Jan 14 2008, 09:21 AM
Edit - I also want to add that in both the honour murder here in Toronto and the murders of the two girls that started this thread there were reports from friends at school that the girls were afraid of thier fathers. So abuse was an ongoing thing and the honour murder didn't just happen out of nowhere due to an actual breach of honour. Fear was a part of these girls lives thier entire life.
Minuet,
I'm one who agrees with your assessment that honor killings are the stated reason for the murders, but not necessarily the real reason. And I think you are right that these women would end up murdered for some other reason were it not for being able to state honor as the reason. In countries like Jordan where the law actually separates honor killings from other types of killings so as to treat them differently, it's not so far-fetched to think that a husband could kill his wife out of pure rage and then later claim that he found out she had been cheating on him and he did it to save family honor. It's not so far fetched either to think that, in order to validate this motive, a husband could go so far as to contrive ways of convincing other family members of the supposed dishonor so he could involve them in the murder and make it look all the more genuine. (In the latter case, the honor killings do have to be considered acceptable in the context of the particular society involved though.) Honor killings happen for a wide variety of psychological, social, and socioeconomic reasons the same as they do in any population where spousal murders occur. Usually it involves control and/or power or else pure psychosis.
I think what you said in the part I quoted is quite an important point. True "honor killings" would logically consist of some event that dishonors the family (real or perceived) following which the spouse is murdered. The existence of long-term abuse prior to the murder lends support for other reasons truly being at work since there is obviously a lot more going on than some event.
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ImpulseEngine
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Jan 14 2008, 12:35 PM
Post #153
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Admiral
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- RTW
- Jan 13 2008, 10:01 PM
- Minuet
- Jan 13 2008, 06:53 PM
Fear can make people do a lot of things you think they should not.
Fear of not finding love elsewhere (yes, I know it's not love - but the feelings of these women are complicated and they think it is love)
Fear of being harmed much the way she was when she did try to leave - she had 2 brothers come to back her up and yet her fears came to pass.
In both the honour killing and the spousal murders there is one common theme. Control. It seems simple to say leave. And for many women it is easy (it would be for me). But not every woman is the same. Some are less strong minded.
I only saw Iliada a couple of times (the store only opened in November) My personal impression was that of a quiet young lady. We didn't work in the same department and never spoke, except a hello in passing. She did always look tired. Others said that she was a beautiful person and the type always willing to jump in and help. A very accomodating person. In hindsight maybe looking for approval? Who knows. I don't claim to know and am only speculating.
That response was both pleasant and enlightening. Thank you.
RTW,
This is something that was discussed in my classes when I had majored in Psychology in college back before I changed careers. There are many reasons abused woman don't leave their abusing husbands that are difficult to comprehend for those of us on the outside. Often, these women were abused as children and have come to believe they deserve it. Often, they have such low self-esteem that they believe they will never find anyone better and having someone is better than having no one. Often, the abusers threaten them so they believe they will be murdered or someone they care about will be (children, for example) if they try to leave or if they tell anyone about the abuse. Often, the women don't know who to turn to to get help - yes, even though it's made readily available. There are countless reasons.
My wife and I know a woman right now who is in an abusive relationship. It's abusive because her boyfriend constantly puts her down, criticizes so many things that she does, won't "permit" her to go places or out with friends because he doesn't want to go along and doesn't want to be without her, etc. As far as we know, there hasn't been any physical abuse, but the man is bad enough that she clearly should have left him a long time ago. But she makes excuses about things not really being so bad because she doesn't believe she will find another boyfriend or at least not anyone any better. Believe me, we have tried to talk her out of that relationship and have encouraged her to get help. She just won't.
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Minuet
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Jan 14 2008, 12:40 PM
Post #154
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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And here is an example of the bias that is shown by politicians and the media.
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Abuse and 'honour crime' probed The consultation wants to hear from female and male abuse victims A public consultation into domestic abuse, forced marriage and "honour crimes" is to be launched by MPs. The six-week online inquiry by the Home Affairs Select Committee hopes to gain testimony from survivors of all forms of physical and psychological abuse.
Responses will help the committee formulate recommendations to ministers on how to tackle the issues.
Labour MP Keith Vaz said the voices of victims of forced marriage and "honour crimes" were "not often enough heard".
Mr Vaz, chairman of the committee, said domestic violence - whether by a relative, spouse or partner - constituted about 15% of all violent crime and killed two women every week in England and Wales.
"Huge numbers of women and men are affected daily by these crimes," he said. "Yet their voices are not often enough heard.
For far too long the plight of male domestic abuse victims has been swept under the carpet
Mark Brooks The ManKind Initiative
"We want to listen to those who have experienced domestic abuse and forced marriage, since they know better than anyone else what works and what doesn't.
"What they say in the consultation will help us decide our recommendations to the government."
Male victims
Respondents will be asked for their opinions on prevention and identification of abuse, the quality of support services and their experience of the criminal justice system.
Mark Brooks, chairman of The ManKind Initiative, a national charity that supports men suffering domestic abuse, said two out every five victims were male.
"For far too long the plight of male domestic abuse victims has been swept under the carpet by the authorities," Mr Brooks said.
"This service will give them a welcome opportunity to make their voices heard so no longer can they be simply ignored."
The consultation will run from 21 January to 29 February and all responses will be confidential and anonymous.
About 12 people each year are thought to be victims of so-called honour killings in the UK, after supposedly behaving in a way that brings shame to their families.
Last week, a coroner in Cumbria ruled that teenager Shafilea Ahmed, who feared a marriage was being arranged by her parents, was the victim of a "vile murder".
The goal here is commendable as the committee states it wants to hear from all victims. But the leader of the commitee right away focuses on one kind of violence and makes me wonder if the other victims will be ignored when the time comes to analyze the issues and come up with solutions. Out of aprox. 104 murders a year 12 are considered honour murders. How does that stack up percentage wise in the general population? Is it out of whack? I know that Britain has a fairly large Indian/Pakistani community. I admit I don't know the numbers here.
As to bias in the media - the ruling by the coroner listed in the last paragraph - was in regards to a murder that has not be proven to be domestic abuse. The father has not been arrested in this case. It's possible that it was an honour murder, but that conclusion should not be assumed. There obviously has not been enough evidence to make an arrest and it is now 4 years since the murder.
Shafilea Ahmed
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Shafilea Ahmed's parents deny her murderJan 11 2008
by Nick Coligan, Liverpool Echo
THE parents of murdered teenager Shafilea Ahmed have denied being involved in her death.
Taxi driver Iftikhar Ahmed initially refused to answer the question from Cheshire police’s lawyer – but then said “No” when asked by his own solicitor.
His wife Farzana then said she had “no involvement” with Shafilea’s death and accused the police of not holding a “proper investigation”.
Mr Ahmed, 48, said he had nothing to do with the Warrington teenager’s disappearance and insisted she was under no pressure to marry.
At yesterday’s inquest in Cumbria, the couple also denied claims made in evidence by Shafilea’s friends that they had beaten her and stolen her savings.
Shafilea’s body was found on the banks of the River Kent at Sedgwick, Cumbria, in February 2004.
She went missing from the family home in Warrington five months earlier.
Mr Ahmed denied there had been an “escalation of violence” towards Shafilea by himself and his wife.
He said his daughter never directly expressed her fears about having an arranged marriage to him, and that he found out through a teacher during a meeting at the school.
Questioned by John Bassett, representing Cheshire police, Mr Ahmed agreed he made a conscious decision not to report Shafilea’s third and final disappearance from home in September 2003.
He said it was a “matter of waiting and seeing if she contacted anybody she knows”.
In a tearful outburst, Mrs Ahmed said: “They (the police) did not co-operate with us. If they had co-operated, there is a possibility they might have found our daughter alive
Now it is certainly possible that this woman was a victim of her father's abuse. But that has not been proven in a court of law, indeed there doesn't seem to be evidence to even bring it to trial. Yet the BBC article includes it as a case of domestic violence.
So much for the vaunted BBC and it's impartiality......
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Minuet
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Jan 14 2008, 12:48 PM
Post #155
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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- ImpulseEngine
- Jan 14 2008, 12:35 PM
- RTW
- Jan 13 2008, 10:01 PM
- Minuet
- Jan 13 2008, 06:53 PM
Fear can make people do a lot of things you think they should not.
Fear of not finding love elsewhere (yes, I know it's not love - but the feelings of these women are complicated and they think it is love)
Fear of being harmed much the way she was when she did try to leave - she had 2 brothers come to back her up and yet her fears came to pass.
In both the honour killing and the spousal murders there is one common theme. Control. It seems simple to say leave. And for many women it is easy (it would be for me). But not every woman is the same. Some are less strong minded.
I only saw Iliada a couple of times (the store only opened in November) My personal impression was that of a quiet young lady. We didn't work in the same department and never spoke, except a hello in passing. She did always look tired. Others said that she was a beautiful person and the type always willing to jump in and help. A very accomodating person. In hindsight maybe looking for approval? Who knows. I don't claim to know and am only speculating.
That response was both pleasant and enlightening. Thank you.
RTW, This is something that was discussed in my classes when I had majored in Psychology in college back before I changed careers. There are many reasons abused woman don't leave their abusing husbands that are difficult to comprehend for those of us on the outside. Often, these women were abused as children and have come to believe they deserve it. Often, they have such low self-esteem that they believe they will never find anyone better and having someone is better than having no one. Often, the abusers threaten them so they believe they will be murdered or someone they care about will be (children, for example) if they try to leave or if they tell anyone about the abuse. Often, the women don't know who to turn to to get help - yes, even though it's made readily available. There are countless reasons. My wife and I know a woman right now who is in an abusive relationship. It's abusive because her boyfriend constantly puts her down, criticizes so many things that she does, won't "permit" her to go places or out with friends because he doesn't want to go along and doesn't want to be without her, etc. As far as we know, there hasn't been any physical abuse, but the man is bad enough that she clearly should have left him a long time ago. But she makes excuses about things not really being so bad because she doesn't believe she will find another boyfriend or at least not anyone any better. Believe me, we have tried to talk her out of that relationship and have encouraged her to get help. She just won't.
A friend of Iliada's told me that she had been trying to convince Iliada to leave for over two years.
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Wichita
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Jan 14 2008, 06:09 PM
Post #156
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The Adminstrator wRench
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- Minuet
- Jan 14 2008, 02:21 PM
Wichita - 8247 made the claim that honour murders deserve special attention because he hears about them at least "once a month"
That adds up to 12 a year and he didn't say if those were all in the US. My point was that 3 women a day are murdered in the US. That is well over a thousand (1095 to be more accurate) - only in the US, not worldwide. The numbers worldwide would be much much larger. And I am only mentioning the women. Not the children.
He also originally made the claim that Muslims didn't speak out against it. He backed off with my examples but RTW has maintained that they do not speak out.
Now maybe this is just my impression - but if 8247 thinks that once a month is significant compared to well over a thousand I am guessing that overall he doesn't hear a lot in your media about domestic abuse. I am guessing that he doesn't hear a lot about those women because thier stories are buried on back pages. Just another statistic. I see the stories on the back pages myself. It wasn't until I was a bit closer to a story that I realized the imbalance of only focusing on one type of abuse. This is not a case either in the US or Canada of media not being allowed to report things. It's more about what they CHOOSE to report and what they CHOOSE to focus on.
And that creates an atmosphere where people are ready to jump all over Muslims every time one of these cases occurs. They are becoming the scapegoats for a problem that is much bigger then 12 murders a year.
When 12 murders a year becomes significantly more important then the other 1083 that occur due to related causes there is something wrong with our focus.
Let me get this straight ....
Your "evidence" that I am lying about the amount of coverage of domestice violence in the United States is your "impression" of what you "guess" 8247 really meant?
OKaaaaayyyy ....
Well, I can't respond to what you said here because, frankly, I don't see alot of substance. I can't respond to "impressions".
- Minuet
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I want to clarify my comment about honour being an excuse. I made this comment because there are abusive parents from every walk in life. Each one has thier stated reasons. One will say their child is "the devil's spawn", another will say they know their wife cheats and is a slut. These people are all making excuses. The truth is that they are sick individuals. The issue of abuse runs far deeper then the surface excuses.
Let me try a different tack.
Based on your logic, we should never list alcohol abuse as a catalyst for domestic violence again. Alcohol abuse is a subset of drug abuse. Discussing drug abuse should cover events fueled by alcohol abuse - IF your logic is right.
So, instead of looking at one of (if not "the") most dangersous days for women in their home (Super Bowl Sunday) as a result of too much drinking combined with the emotional investment in the game, we have to ask ourselves why did "drug" abusers pick that day to suddenly go wacko at the same time.
Are heroin parties always held on Sundays in February (or January as it applies)? Did Dominoes have a special on drug deliveries that day?
A very simple explanation (alcoholics and non-drinkers alike overindulging because of the big game and the parties) becomes confused when people aren't willing to look at ALL of the real causes of abuse.
Your explanation doesn't explain the family involvement in the honor killing either.
- Minuet
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Even in those countries that seem to sanction honour murders the actual numbers don't seem to exceed the number of domestic abuse cases in western countries. If every one of those countries spoke out against honour murders only I am not sure the number of domestic abuse cases would go down. Those who use the honour excuse now would just find a different excuse. The women and children would still be dead. The causes of domestic abuse run much deeper then just honour murders. They are a result - not the symptom. We need to focus on and treat the symptoms.
If Muslims (Hindu, etc,) who speak out acknowledge that "honor killings" are a concern in their society, who am I to tell them that they are wrong.
- Minuet
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Edit - I also want to add that in both the honour murder here in Toronto and the murders of the two girls that started this thread there were reports from friends at school that the girls were afraid of thier fathers. So abuse was an ongoing thing and the honour murder didn't just happen out of nowhere due to an actual breach of honour. Fear was a part of these girls lives thier entire life.
The case that I am personally familiar with fortunately ended well for the girl (although it cost her her nuclear family). Her parents were considered on the strict side as she was growing up, but were not described as abusive. Both were highly educated.
When she disobeyed them to pick the person she loved, they became very different people.
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Minuet
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Jan 14 2008, 07:42 PM
Post #157
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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- Wichita
- Jan 14 2008, 06:09 PM
- Minuet
- Jan 14 2008, 02:21 PM
Wichita - 8247 made the claim that honour murders deserve special attention because he hears about them at least "once a month"
That adds up to 12 a year and he didn't say if those were all in the US. My point was that 3 women a day are murdered in the US. That is well over a thousand (1095 to be more accurate) - only in the US, not worldwide. The numbers worldwide would be much much larger. And I am only mentioning the women. Not the children.
He also originally made the claim that Muslims didn't speak out against it. He backed off with my examples but RTW has maintained that they do not speak out.
Now maybe this is just my impression - but if 8247 thinks that once a month is significant compared to well over a thousand I am guessing that overall he doesn't hear a lot in your media about domestic abuse. I am guessing that he doesn't hear a lot about those women because thier stories are buried on back pages. Just another statistic. I see the stories on the back pages myself. It wasn't until I was a bit closer to a story that I realized the imbalance of only focusing on one type of abuse. This is not a case either in the US or Canada of media not being allowed to report things. It's more about what they CHOOSE to report and what they CHOOSE to focus on.
And that creates an atmosphere where people are ready to jump all over Muslims every time one of these cases occurs. They are becoming the scapegoats for a problem that is much bigger then 12 murders a year.
When 12 murders a year becomes significantly more important then the other 1083 that occur due to related causes there is something wrong with our focus.
Let me get this straight .... Your "evidence" that I am lying about the amount of coverage of domestice violence in the United States is your "impression" of what you "guess" 8247 really meant?
OKaaaaayyyy .... Well, I can't respond to what you said here because, frankly, I don't see alot of substance. I can't respond to "impressions".
When did I call you a liar??????? I declare quite strongly that I did not do this. I gave my impression, that is all. If you can show me that each and every woman who has been killed by their spouse has become front page news across the country then maybe you can change my impression. That would be 3 women murdered per day that are treated as front page or top of the NATIONAL news each and every day.
Now, can you say the same for honour murders? Just tack that on as the reason and it damn well becomes front page news across the country. All twelve times per year*
If you don't want to discuss this difference in coverage that's fine - but don't go around accusing me of using tactics that I damn well did not use.
*Using 8247's figure.
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- Minuet
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I want to clarify my comment about honour being an excuse. I made this comment because there are abusive parents from every walk in life. Each one has thier stated reasons. One will say their child is "the devil's spawn", another will say they know their wife cheats and is a slut. These people are all making excuses. The truth is that they are sick individuals. The issue of abuse runs far deeper then the surface excuses.
Let me try a different tack. Based on your logic, we should never list alcohol abuse as a catalyst for domestic violence again. Alcohol abuse is a subset of drug abuse. Discussing drug abuse should cover events fueled by alcohol abuse - IF your logic is right. So, instead of looking at one of (if not "the") most dangersous days for women in their home (Super Bowl Sunday) as a result of too much drinking combined with the emotional investment in the game, we have to ask ourselves why did "drug" abusers pick that day to suddenly go wacko at the same time. Are heroin parties always held on Sundays in February (or January as it applies)? Did Dominoes have a special on drug deliveries that day? A very simple explanation (alcoholics and non-drinkers alike overindulging because of the big game and the parties) becomes confused when people aren't willing to look at ALL of the real causes of abuse. Your explanation doesn't explain the family involvement in the honor killing either.
Are you saying that the drug and alcohol abuse just happens? What caused these men to take up alcohol and drugs? What were their family situations like - did they find refuge in alcohol after being beaten themselves as children?
Also, many people abuse alcohol and drugs but do not become violent. Therefore I hesitate to blame the substance abuse ALONE as a cause. There must be more too it. Many substance abusers have underlying psychological problems that led to the substance abuse. I would look there first.
I cannot speak to all cases of honour murders, but I can tell you that the wife did not participate in the murder of the young girl here in Toronto. Quite the opposite. But in the cases where there is cooperation from the family could coercion be the explanation? If there is a history of abuse in the family then fear can certainly play a big role in cooperation. In fact I think that is true in many cases.
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- Minuet
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Even in those countries that seem to sanction honour murders the actual numbers don't seem to exceed the number of domestic abuse cases in western countries. If every one of those countries spoke out against honour murders only I am not sure the number of domestic abuse cases would go down. Those who use the honour excuse now would just find a different excuse. The women and children would still be dead. The causes of domestic abuse run much deeper then just honour murders. They are a result - not the symptom. We need to focus on and treat the symptoms.
If Muslims (Hindu, etc,) who speak out acknowledge that "honor killings" are a concern in their society, who am I to tell them that they are wrong.
Of course it is a concern. In fact your comments here support much of what I have been saying. People in this thread have been commenting that those communities that you speak of have NOT been concerned and have not been speaking out against it. I am glad that you and I can agree that these communities do speak out - it shows that as a community they are moving forward.
My main problem here has been the singling out of these communities, as if it didn't happen anywhere else. I stated way back at the beginning of this thread that singling out those communities was wrong mainly because the people doing it were ignoring the plight of women in their own communities. They were seeming to make it a problem of the Muslim community only instead of a problem in society as a whole and they seem to want to ignore the idea that it can happen in their own neighbors house.
That's why I have trouble with the unbalanced coverage of an honour murder over the coverage of the death of someone like Iliada. It creates that prejudicial impression that the problem belongs to other people and not to all of us.
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- Minuet
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Edit - I also want to add that in both the honour murder here in Toronto and the murders of the two girls that started this thread there were reports from friends at school that the girls were afraid of thier fathers. So abuse was an ongoing thing and the honour murder didn't just happen out of nowhere due to an actual breach of honour. Fear was a part of these girls lives thier entire life.
The case that I am personally familiar with fortunately ended well for the girl (although it cost her her nuclear family). Her parents were considered on the strict side as she was growing up, but were not described as abusive. Both were highly educated. When she disobeyed them to pick the person she loved, they became very different people.
Well I think it speaks volumes that the case you are familiar with ended well for the girl. I assume this means that although she was disowned she was not physically harmed. Can we assume this occured because her parents had never been the type of people to physically harm her? This actually supports my case that the physical abuse has deeper causes. Most of the girls killed by their fathers have been fearful thier entire lives. It didn't just happen out of the blue.
The disowning is sad and something I don't agree with. But it is also something that can happen in any home. In the past Jewish families would sit shiva (mourn as if dead) for children who married out of the religion. I would venture to say this might still happen in a strictly orthodox home. But it is a far cry from actually harming the child in any physical way.
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Wichita
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Jan 14 2008, 09:43 PM
Post #158
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The Adminstrator wRench
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- Minuet
- Jan 15 2008, 12:42 AM
- Wichita
- Jan 14 2008, 06:09 PM
- Minuet
- Jan 14 2008, 02:21 PM
......
Now maybe this is just my impression - but if 8247 thinks that once a month is significant compared to well over a thousand I am guessing that overall he doesn't hear a lot in your media about domestic abuse. I am guessing that he doesn't hear a lot about those women because thier stories are buried on back pages. Just another statistic. I see the stories on the back pages myself. It wasn't until I was a bit closer to a story that I realized the imbalance of only focusing on one type of abuse. This is not a case either in the US or Canada of media not being allowed to report things. It's more about what they CHOOSE to report and what they CHOOSE to focus on.
And that creates an atmosphere where people are ready to jump all over Muslims every time one of these cases occurs. They are becoming the scapegoats for a problem that is much bigger then 12 murders a year.
When 12 murders a year becomes significantly more important then the other 1083 that occur due to related causes there is something wrong with our focus.
Let me get this straight .... Your "evidence" that I am lying about the amount of coverage of domestice violence in the United States is your "impression" of what you "guess" 8247 really meant?
OKaaaaayyyy .... Well, I can't respond to what you said here because, frankly, I don't see alot of substance. I can't respond to "impressions".
When did I call you a liar???????
- Minuet
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Now maybe this is just my impression - but if 8247 thinks that once a month is significant compared to well over a thousand I am guessing that overall he doesn't hear a lot in your media about domestic abuse.
That is where.
First, you are ASSUMING "why" 8247 thinks it is significant.
Then, you decided that it wasn't that 8247 just didn't happen to hear other statistics - it must not be there.
I said it was. Therefore I must be the one who is lying.
IF we follow your logic .....
- Minuet
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I declare quite strongly that I did not do this. I gave my impression, that is all.
Glad to hear it.
- Minuet
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If you can show me that each and every woman who has been killed by their spouse has become front page news across the country then maybe you can change my impression. That would be 3 women murdered per day that are treated as front page or top of the NATIONAL news each and every day.
Whoops. Now you have backed off from the comment that you just made.
First, why are you only interested in the women who have been killed by their spouse? Men are killed as well.
Second, prove that every honor killing ever committed is front page or top of the NATIONAL news EVERY time one occurs.
(And demanding that it be NATIONAL news is changing the goal posts. I never made that claim. You just added it.)
- Minuet
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Now, can you say the same for honour murders? Just tack that on as the reason and it damn well becomes front page news across the country. All twelve times per year*
Again, I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with some information about honor killings. Most are never even reported as killings.
- Minuet
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If you don't want to discuss this difference in coverage that's fine - but don't go around accusing me of using tactics that I damn well did not use.
I HAVE been discussing the coverage of domestic violence and honor killings. Just because you disagree with me, it doesn't make me the bad guy.
- Minuet
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Are you saying that the drug and alcohol abuse just happens? What caused these men to take up alcohol and drugs? What were their family situations like - did they find refuge in alcohol after being beaten themselves as children?
Are you avoiding my point or did you just not understand it?
IF we use your logic - honor killings don't count because they are just like any other domestic violence - then we should not consider alcohol as an issue at all. It is a drug - simply discussing drug abuse should cover it.
It ignores the fact that, although there are similiarities between drug and alcohol abuse, there are also significant differences. But then, saying honor killings are no different than any other domestic violence does as well.
- Minuet
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Well I think it speaks volumes that the case you are familiar with ended well for the girl. I assume this means that although she was disowned she was not physically harmed. Can we assume this occured because her parents had never been the type of people to physically harm her? This actually supports my case that the physical abuse has deeper causes. Most of the girls killed by their fathers have been fearful thier entire lives. It didn't just happen out of the blue.
I never said the girl was disowned.
I am familiar with the case because a relative was the only one who the girl confided in about her plans. My relative (who was old enough to be the girls mother) said it was the only time she has ever kept a secret from another parent.
Why? Because she honestly believed it could cost the girl her life.
It was the girl who cut off ties to her family.
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Wichita
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Jan 14 2008, 09:52 PM
Post #159
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The Adminstrator wRench
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Ironically, one of the liberal websites that I visit sporadically decided to weigh in on the subject today. Here's what one of its editors had to say:
- Quote:
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Western Media Largely Ignores The Plague Of "Honor Killings" Posted by Paul Hooson Published: Jan 14, 08 04:00 PM The recent murder of two Lewisville, Texas Muslim teenager girls in the back of their Egyptian born immigrant father's taxi cab has highlighted a very ugly issue of culturally-sanctioned violence against women that has often been largely ignored by the Western media -- honor killings.
Ultraconservative members of Muslim societies emigrate to Western nations, and away from their culturally conservative Muslim communities, yet act out violence against women when either their wives or daughters become influenced by the more open morals and values of Western culture.
Honor killings are still officially sanctioned by law in many Muslim nations or communities such as Jordan, Syria or still practiced in parts of Iraq or elsewhere unofficially without the sanction of law. In many Muslim states, men are given a measure of an excuse to practice this violence against women.
For some reason, while some Muslims emigrate to Western nations such as the United States, the UK, or parts of Europe such as France or Italy, many families do not apppear to really want to fully assimilate into their new nation, and many rigid Muslim cultural barriers often remain, especially for the women of these families. Among the least literate of Muslim families, this phenomenon appears the strongest, and is where much of the annual world estimate of 5,000 honor killings of women take place each year, including a number of them in Western nations such as the the U.S., UK, Canada, Denmark, Sweden, Italy, Germany as reported in 2004.
Some debate exists among Muslim scholars whether the Koran really condones honor killings or they are simply a form of culturally accepted violence largely practiced among the most ultra-orthodox of some Muslims that has slowly found itself sanctioned into the legal system of some Muslim societies. Western culture views the issue entirely differently and such violence is simply viewed as gender based violence against women, although the main Western news media has largely failed to understand the extent to which this culturally sanctioned violence against women is often practiced in Western societies.
It certainly seems strange that ultra-orthodox members of Muslim societies move to Western nations, with all their self-proclaimed vices and comparable cultural liberalism, especially in regards to entertainment and other areas, and then seem to be surprised when their female family members such as daughters do not want to better assimilate with their new culture, especially if attending college or becoming part of the workplace.
At any rate, the father of the two slain teenage girls is now on the lam. And American courts will only view whoever killed them as nothing but murder, no matter what role any cultural belief played in their slayings. Culture is not a valid defense to murder charges under American law.
WizbangBlue
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Minuet
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Jan 15 2008, 09:58 AM
Post #160
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
- Posts:
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- Flag Officer
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- Wichita
- Jan 14 2008, 09:43 PM
- Minuet
- Jan 15 2008, 12:42 AM
- Wichita
- Jan 14 2008, 06:09 PM
- Minuet
- Jan 14 2008, 02:21 PM
......
Now maybe this is just my impression - but if 8247 thinks that once a month is significant compared to well over a thousand I am guessing that overall he doesn't hear a lot in your media about domestic abuse. I am guessing that he doesn't hear a lot about those women because thier stories are buried on back pages. Just another statistic. I see the stories on the back pages myself. It wasn't until I was a bit closer to a story that I realized the imbalance of only focusing on one type of abuse. This is not a case either in the US or Canada of media not being allowed to report things. It's more about what they CHOOSE to report and what they CHOOSE to focus on.
And that creates an atmosphere where people are ready to jump all over Muslims every time one of these cases occurs. They are becoming the scapegoats for a problem that is much bigger then 12 murders a year.
When 12 murders a year becomes significantly more important then the other 1083 that occur due to related causes there is something wrong with our focus.
Let me get this straight .... Your "evidence" that I am lying about the amount of coverage of domestice violence in the United States is your "impression" of what you "guess" 8247 really meant?
OKaaaaayyyy .... Well, I can't respond to what you said here because, frankly, I don't see alot of substance. I can't respond to "impressions".
When did I call you a liar???????
- Minuet
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Now maybe this is just my impression - but if 8247 thinks that once a month is significant compared to well over a thousand I am guessing that overall he doesn't hear a lot in your media about domestic abuse.
That is where. First, you are ASSUMING "why" 8247 thinks it is significant. Then, you decided that it wasn't that 8247 just didn't happen to hear other statistics - it must not be there. I said it was. Therefore I must be the one who is lying. IF we follow your logic ..... - Minuet
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I declare quite strongly that I did not do this. I gave my impression, that is all.
Glad to hear it. - Minuet
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If you can show me that each and every woman who has been killed by their spouse has become front page news across the country then maybe you can change my impression. That would be 3 women murdered per day that are treated as front page or top of the NATIONAL news each and every day.
Whoops. Now you have backed off from the comment that you just made. First, why are you only interested in the women who have been killed by their spouse? Men are killed as well. Second, prove that every honor killing ever committed is front page or top of the NATIONAL news EVERY time one occurs. (And demanding that it be NATIONAL news is changing the goal posts. I never made that claim. You just added it.) - Minuet
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Now, can you say the same for honour murders? Just tack that on as the reason and it damn well becomes front page news across the country. All twelve times per year*
Again, I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with some information about honor killings. Most are never even reported as killings. - Minuet
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If you don't want to discuss this difference in coverage that's fine - but don't go around accusing me of using tactics that I damn well did not use.
I HAVE been discussing the coverage of domestic violence and honor killings. Just because you disagree with me, it doesn't make me the bad guy.
I never called anyone a liar.
But following your logic you must be calling 8247 a liar
- Quote:
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Again, I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with some information about honor killings. Most are never even reported as killings.
So what are they reported as? How are the deaths explained?
Can you back up this assertation?
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I HAVE been discussing the coverage of domestic violence and honor killings. Just because you disagree with me, it doesn't make me the bad guy.
Unbelievable. I disagree with you and you get to throw around the accusation that I have called you a liar. That is the context in which I made the comment that you didn't want to discuss the coverage. Instead of discussing it you dismissed my arguments by accusing me falsely of insulting you by calling you a liar.
You should live up to the standards you set for others when having a discussion. I stuck with giving my impressions. You made it personal.
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- Minuet
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Are you saying that the drug and alcohol abuse just happens? What caused these men to take up alcohol and drugs? What were their family situations like - did they find refuge in alcohol after being beaten themselves as children?
Are you avoiding my point or did you just not understand it? IF we use your logic - honor killings don't count because they are just like any other domestic violence - then we should not consider alcohol as an issue at all. It is a drug - simply discussing drug abuse should cover it. It ignores the fact that, although there are similiarities between drug and alcohol abuse, there are also significant differences. But then, saying honor killings are no different than any other domestic violence does as well.
I am not avoiding your point - I think your point is based on a misunderstanding of my point.
I never said that the underlying causes should never be dealt with. What I am trying to say is that focusing solely on one cause that only affects a smaller number of people per year and ignoring the greater numbers is wrong. I also drew a parallel between the causes. Until we understand why some men (and a small number of women) have this need to control the people around them then the problem will persist. It comes out in varioius ways - but this control illness, for lack of a better word, is what needs to be dealt with overall. It is a theme that runs throughout. I pointed out that the girls in the article and the girl in Toronto had issues with their fathers that didn't just appear when they became teens. Their fathers had always been abusive. You haven't addressed this aspect at all.
The other point you seem to misunderstand is that I never said to ignore these stories. What I am saying is that some people seem to focus on these honour cases solely while ignoring all other cases of domestic abuse. The unbalanced media coverage has the end result of people like 8247 continually posting stories on this site about Muslim domestic abuse only and not any other form of the problem. People like Admiralbill make comments such as "Religion of peace, my @$$." (Direct quote from the first page of this thread)
The bigotry is there and you should not ignore it. I haven't got a problem with discussing honour murders as a subset of domestic abuse. But from what I see from "average" people here like 8247, Admiralbill, and others is an attitude that it is ok to bash an entire group for the sins of a few individuals. It also convieniently ignores that the problem exists outside of the group they are bashing and affects people in every walk of life. The problem doesn't discriminate, but where we lay our blame certainly does. And our resources. That's why I posted the article about the lack of space in shelters.
- Quote:
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- Minuet
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Well I think it speaks volumes that the case you are familiar with ended well for the girl. I assume this means that although she was disowned she was not physically harmed. Can we assume this occured because her parents had never been the type of people to physically harm her? This actually supports my case that the physical abuse has deeper causes. Most of the girls killed by their fathers have been fearful thier entire lives. It didn't just happen out of the blue.
I never said the girl was disowned. I am familiar with the case because a relative was the only one who the girl confided in about her plans. My relative (who was old enough to be the girls mother) said it was the only time she has ever kept a secret from another parent. Why? Because she honestly believed it could cost the girl her life. It was the girl who cut off ties to her family.
Your telling of this story is confusing. You have left out many details. You made the comment earlier that her parents changed when she wanted to marry outside her group. But you didn't say how and you didn't specify whether or not she actually became a victim of domestic abuse. Without these details your story has little meaning. Sometimes people feel a fear that is unfounded. Sometimes it is well founded. In this case I don't know because you have not provided the full story. You say the girl was the one who cut off the ties with her family. Could you be missing some details? Maybe she was beaten as a child and had good reason to fear her parents. Maybe she was treated like a princess and feared her parents disappointment and disapproval rather then physical harm. If she was not physcially harmed then how do we know if her fear was well founded or not. I need that one detail, was she physically harmed or not?
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Minuet
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Jan 15 2008, 10:14 AM
Post #161
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
- Posts:
- 36,559
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- Flag Officer
- Member
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- Joined:
- May 19, 2003
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- Wichita
- Jan 14 2008, 09:52 PM
Ironically, one of the liberal websites that I visit sporadically decided to weigh in on the subject today. Here's what one of its editors had to say: - Quote:
-
Western Media Largely Ignores The Plague Of "Honor Killings" Posted by Paul Hooson Published: Jan 14, 08 04:00 PM The recent murder of two Lewisville, Texas Muslim teenager girls in the back of their Egyptian born immigrant father's taxi cab has highlighted a very ugly issue of culturally-sanctioned violence against women that has often been largely ignored by the Western media -- honor killings.
Ultraconservative members of Muslim societies emigrate to Western nations, and away from their culturally conservative Muslim communities, yet act out violence against women when either their wives or daughters become influenced by the more open morals and values of Western culture.
Honor killings are still officially sanctioned by law in many Muslim nations or communities such as Jordan, Syria or still practiced in parts of Iraq or elsewhere unofficially without the sanction of law. In many Muslim states, men are given a measure of an excuse to practice this violence against women.
For some reason, while some Muslims emigrate to Western nations such as the United States, the UK, or parts of Europe such as France or Italy, many families do not apppear to really want to fully assimilate into their new nation, and many rigid Muslim cultural barriers often remain, especially for the women of these families. Among the least literate of Muslim families, this phenomenon appears the strongest, and is where much of the annual world estimate of 5,000 honor killings of women take place each year, including a number of them in Western nations such as the the U.S., UK, Canada, Denmark, Sweden, Italy, Germany as reported in 2004.
Some debate exists among Muslim scholars whether the Koran really condones honor killings or they are simply a form of culturally accepted violence largely practiced among the most ultra-orthodox of some Muslims that has slowly found itself sanctioned into the legal system of some Muslim societies. Western culture views the issue entirely differently and such violence is simply viewed as gender based violence against women, although the main Western news media has largely failed to understand the extent to which this culturally sanctioned violence against women is often practiced in Western societies.
It certainly seems strange that ultra-orthodox members of Muslim societies move to Western nations, with all their self-proclaimed vices and comparable cultural liberalism, especially in regards to entertainment and other areas, and then seem to be surprised when their female family members such as daughters do not want to better assimilate with their new culture, especially if attending college or becoming part of the workplace.
At any rate, the father of the two slain teenage girls is now on the lam. And American courts will only view whoever killed them as nothing but murder, no matter what role any cultural belief played in their slayings. Culture is not a valid defense to murder charges under American law. WizbangBlue
If this article is correct and the media does largely ignore honour murders then how do people like 8247, who admitted he only reads "the local rag" two days a week, come up with so many stories to post on this site? Every few weeks he comes up with articles sometimes starting three or four topics on this issue.
I have gotten to know 8247 pretty well. He doesn't strike me as a white supremist bigot type who would go out of his way to bash another culture just for the sake of hatred. I give him the benefit of the doubt about it and presume his impression is based on what he sees around him in the media. I presume the headline news is a big part of his world view.
So how does a regular guy like him get to the point where they see the Muslim community as a whole as a group of nasty people who beat up their wives and children and kill for honour.
How does a regular guy like Admiralbill get the same impression and feel it is ok to say "Religion of peace, my @$$."
Sorry but I don't buy what this article is trying to say. The Western media does not ignore the problem. Rather it actually scapegoats Muslims as being the only ones with the problem and ignores the thousands of other victims of abuse.
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Jan 15 2008, 04:28 PM
Post #162
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UberAdmiral
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All I can say is that I get my information from a wide span of sources, mostly Internet. I do many searches for topics that interest me.
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Hoss
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Jan 15 2008, 05:29 PM
Post #163
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Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
- Posts:
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- Minuet
- Jan 15 2008, 10:14 AM
- Wichita
- Jan 14 2008, 09:52 PM
Ironically, one of the liberal websites that I visit sporadically decided to weigh in on the subject today. Here's what one of its editors had to say: - Quote:
-
Western Media Largely Ignores The Plague Of "Honor Killings" Posted by Paul Hooson Published: Jan 14, 08 04:00 PM The recent murder of two Lewisville, Texas Muslim teenager girls in the back of their Egyptian born immigrant father's taxi cab has highlighted a very ugly issue of culturally-sanctioned violence against women that has often been largely ignored by the Western media -- honor killings.
Ultraconservative members of Muslim societies emigrate to Western nations, and away from their culturally conservative Muslim communities, yet act out violence against women when either their wives or daughters become influenced by the more open morals and values of Western culture.
Honor killings are still officially sanctioned by law in many Muslim nations or communities such as Jordan, Syria or still practiced in parts of Iraq or elsewhere unofficially without the sanction of law. In many Muslim states, men are given a measure of an excuse to practice this violence against women.
For some reason, while some Muslims emigrate to Western nations such as the United States, the UK, or parts of Europe such as France or Italy, many families do not apppear to really want to fully assimilate into their new nation, and many rigid Muslim cultural barriers often remain, especially for the women of these families. Among the least literate of Muslim families, this phenomenon appears the strongest, and is where much of the annual world estimate of 5,000 honor killings of women take place each year, including a number of them in Western nations such as the the U.S., UK, Canada, Denmark, Sweden, Italy, Germany as reported in 2004.
Some debate exists among Muslim scholars whether the Koran really condones honor killings or they are simply a form of culturally accepted violence largely practiced among the most ultra-orthodox of some Muslims that has slowly found itself sanctioned into the legal system of some Muslim societies. Western culture views the issue entirely differently and such violence is simply viewed as gender based violence against women, although the main Western news media has largely failed to understand the extent to which this culturally sanctioned violence against women is often practiced in Western societies.
It certainly seems strange that ultra-orthodox members of Muslim societies move to Western nations, with all their self-proclaimed vices and comparable cultural liberalism, especially in regards to entertainment and other areas, and then seem to be surprised when their female family members such as daughters do not want to better assimilate with their new culture, especially if attending college or becoming part of the workplace.
At any rate, the father of the two slain teenage girls is now on the lam. And American courts will only view whoever killed them as nothing but murder, no matter what role any cultural belief played in their slayings. Culture is not a valid defense to murder charges under American law. WizbangBlue
If this article is correct and the media does largely ignore honour murders then how do people like 8247, who admitted he only reads "the local rag" two days a week, come up with so many stories to post on this site? Every few weeks he comes up with articles sometimes starting three or four topics on this issue. I have gotten to know 8247 pretty well. He doesn't strike me as a white supremist bigot type who would go out of his way to bash another culture just for the sake of hatred. I give him the benefit of the doubt about it and presume his impression is based on what he sees around him in the media. I presume the headline news is a big part of his world view. So how does a regular guy like him get to the point where they see the Muslim community as a whole as a group of nasty people who beat up their wives and children and kill for honour. How does a regular guy like Admiralbill get the same impression and feel it is ok to say "Religion of peace, my @$$." Sorry but I don't buy what this article is trying to say. The Western media does not ignore the problem. Rather it actually scapegoats Muslims as being the only ones with the problem and ignores the thousands of other victims of abuse.
The article that started all this was an article about this happening in the US, where it would not be ignored. The jist of the article that you are quoting seems to me to be that the media ignores it as it occurs in muslim countries.
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Minuet
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Jan 15 2008, 07:09 PM
Post #164
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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- Quote:
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The article that started all this was an article about this happening in the US, where it would not be ignored. The jist of the article that you are quoting seems to me to be that the media ignores it as it occurs in muslim countries.
And herein lies the irony. It's not ignored when it happens in the US. But the 2 to 3 women killed by their spouses instead of their fathers on the same day were probably reported deep in the paper. Maybe it got 5 or 6 lines.
That's what I have a beef with. The story did deserve attention. But so do all the others that don't. I definitely see a trend whereby it is ok to say things that make certain communities look bad and when the same thing happens in other communities it gets buried.
And I am not only talking about WASPS being ignored. Other groups have managed to get the papers afraid to report on them for fear of being called racists. Eventually that might even happen with Muslims, but for now it seems ok to bash them.
I want an atmosphere where ALL these crimes are reported equally and it is recognized that ethnic groups are not responsible. The individuals involved bear the responsibility.
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whitestar
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Jan 15 2008, 07:22 PM
Post #165
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Captain
- Posts:
- 1,469
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- Senior Officer
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- #122
- Joined:
- February 23, 2004
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- Quote:
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Western Media Largely Ignores The Plague Of "Honor Killings" Posted by Paul Hooson Published: Jan 14, 08 04:00 PM The recent murder of two Lewisville, Texas Muslim teenager girls in the back of their Egyptian born immigrant father's taxi cab has highlighted a very ugly issue of culturally-sanctioned violence against women that has often been largely ignored by the Western media -- honor killings.
Ultraconservative members of Muslim societies emigrate to Western nations, and away from their culturally conservative Muslim communities, yet act out violence against women when either their wives or daughters become influenced by the more open morals and values of Western culture.
Honor killings are still officially sanctioned by law in many Muslim nations or communities such as Jordan, Syria or still practiced in parts of Iraq or elsewhere unofficially without the sanction of law. In many Muslim states, men are given a measure of an excuse to practice this violence against women.
For some reason, while some Muslims emigrate to Western nations such as the United States, the UK, or parts of Europe such as France or Italy, many families do not apppear to really want to fully assimilate into their new nation, and many rigid Muslim cultural barriers often remain, especially for the women of these families. Among the least literate of Muslim families, this phenomenon appears the strongest, and is where much of the annual world estimate of 5,000 honor killings of women take place each year, including a number of them in Western nations such as the the U.S., UK, Canada, Denmark, Sweden, Italy, Germany as reported in 2004.
Some debate exists among Muslim scholars whether the Koran really condones honor killings or they are simply a form of culturally accepted violence largely practiced among the most ultra-orthodox of some Muslims that has slowly found itself sanctioned into the legal system of some Muslim societies. Western culture views the issue entirely differently and such violence is simply viewed as gender based violence against women, although the main Western news media has largely failed to understand the extent to which this culturally sanctioned violence against women is often practiced in Western societies.
It certainly seems strange that ultra-orthodox members of Muslim societies move to Western nations, with all their self-proclaimed vices and comparable cultural liberalism, especially in regards to entertainment and other areas, and then seem to be surprised when their female family members such as daughters do not want to better assimilate with their new culture, especially if attending college or becoming part of the workplace.
At any rate, the father of the two slain teenage girls is now on the lam. And American courts will only view whoever killed them as nothing but murder, no matter what role any cultural belief played in their slayings. Culture is not a valid defense to murder charges under American law. This article in my view shows there is no comparision in the horrendous cultural custom of honour killings and western domestic violence culminating in murder. The two are not of the same order of magnitude. One is a culturally ingrainded custom and hence forth practiced widely, how widely practiced open to debate. The other considered abnormal, aberrant, without question a crime in the societies they occur in. If the debate here is comparing the two, in my opinion there is no debate, if the debate is the comparision of numbers in a western nation, then that is obviously directly reliant upon the number of people from cultures who practice "honour killings" living in a western culture. A low number of people from cultures that practice this custum obviously would result in a low amount of honour killings and visa-versa. It would be more enlightning if a comparision per-capita based on peoples culture of origin were made By the way Min, I did read the whole thread before my last post, when not agreeing or not likeing what someone has posted should not lead you to assume they have not read through the thread replies.
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