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Muslim man in Dallas kills daughters; for acting like Americans
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Topic Started: Jan 4 2008, 11:56 AM (2,521 Views)
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Wichita
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Jan 13 2008, 08:45 AM
Post #136
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The Adminstrator wRench
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To sum up ....
I agree that honor killings are a form of domestic abuse.
I don't agree that they should be ignored because they are a form of domestic abuse. I wouldn't ignore alcohol as a contributing factor or drugs so I see no reason to ignore honor killings as a reason.
Nor do I consider it bigotted to discuss honor killings ... and for the same reasons. It isn't bigotted to discuss drugs or alcohol as contributing factors. I don't think we can solve this domestic vioence without discussing the real issues and honor killing is one of those issues.
I also don't think honor killings is limited to Muslim cultures. I have provided one example.
However .... and rather ironically ... I suggest that people listen to what what Muslim groups who have publicly condemned honor killings say on that matter. They RECOGNIZE that it is "an" (not the) issue in their culture that needs to be addressed. Many groups have been formed to do just that.
Who am I to say they are wrong? It is their culture.
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Minuet
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Jan 13 2008, 03:39 PM
Post #137
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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- Wichita
- Jan 13 2008, 08:31 AM
- Minuet
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And unless we stop playing the "we are superior" game and start facing the real issues behind domestic violence then it won't ever end.
You contradicted yourself in the same sentence. One of the "real issues" behind domestic violence is that some people use religion/cultural as a reason to justify it. Pretending that it isn't the cases will not solve the problem. And do not assume that I think that only one culture practices honor killings. When I lived in Rochester, a young woman was murdered in Florida by her estranged husband. She had fled to Florida to get away from him. His murder of her was domestic violence pure and simple. However, he did not have the means to get to Florida nor did he know where to find her. HER FAMILY (from Rochester) was the ones who told him and who helped him fix his car and pay for the repairs - despite her pleas that they keep her secret. The family's participation in the murder was based on cultural (and potentially religious) issues. They were Hispanic. They would have benefited from the education about what their culture (and religion) really believes. They said that they didn't think the guy would kill her, but they knew that he had been violent before and still thought she should try to work things out despite what she said. Tangent: - Minuet
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Maybe you should let RTW answer the question himself. I based the question on the inferences made throughout the entire thread that Muslims do not condemn these acts. If I am wrong then let him explain his comments more fully himself.
Good luck with that. :lol: I've made the same request to allow the person I've questioned to respond for himself/herself many times and have been ignored far more often than it is granted. (Actually, I rarely ever get my wish granted. :no2:) Back on-topic: - Minuet
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When was the last time the leader of your place of worship discussed it? The point is not silly. These people are silent all the time.
Nothing more than an assumption. Again, you don't do your argument any good by making unsubstantiated assumptions about other faiths and cultures. FYI, the last two wards I have attended have the Domestic Violence Shelter as their on-going, perpetual community project. (Other projects are done seasonally.) As to how Mormon men should treat their wives and children (and women treat their husbands and children) - I won't claim weekly, but darn close. As to President Bush - well, I am not in the mood to GOOGLE his speeches, but I will go out on a limb and say a major speech is done at least once a year (State of the Union). How does that compare to the leader of other coutnries? - Minuet
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You still haven't explained why it is so important for AMERICAN MUSLIMS to speak out against this issue when AMERICANS in general do not have say a word about domestic violence.
Which, of course, will come as a great surprise to the millions of Americans who support their local domestic violence shelters, see the information sent to them through United Way (regardless if they give to United Way or not) or hear the domestic violence shelter reps speak on their local TV and radio stations (just to name a few instances). Again, not helping your arguement .....
Wichita - I want to remind you that my comments that you quote here were in response to a comment that was made that Americans did not have to speak out because it's assumed that they do. My main point was that those Americans who happen to be Muslim were not given the same benefit of the doubt.
I am sure that you and I can agree that Americans who happen to be Muslim also "support their local domestic violence shelters, see the information sent to them through United Way (regardless if they give to United Way or not) or hear the domestic violence shelter reps speak on their local TV and radio stations "
My problem was that a few posters here were singling out Muslims as needing to be responsible to a higher degree simply because they are Muslim. It was also stated directly - and incorrectly - that Muslims do not speak out or do any of the things you listed.
My beef was with the people who made those incorrect and highly biased statements.
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Minuet
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Jan 13 2008, 04:01 PM
Post #138
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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- Wichita
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ALL the circumstances of religion being used as an excuse should be brought to light regardless of race, creed or culture. That provides an opportunity for the people who really know that the religion does not permit the killing to say again that the religion does not justify the killing. The wider the message is disseminated the better.
I can agree with this statement.
But I remind you that all of the points I made were in response to people who were singling out a specific group because of thier religion. A few posters did state straight out that they "never" hear Muslims condemning these acts. One person continued to state this even after I proved them wrong with examples.
One other poster made a sarcastic comment about the "religion of peace" as well. I have no problem with the circumstances being brought to light. My beef is the fact that the circumstances are only brought to light for certain groups and the wider, mass population, is ignored.
It has bothered me greatly that in the Iliada Zois murder our papers did not mention that she had been a victim of domestic abuse for a number of years. If I could find that piece of information out just by talking to a couple of her friends then I am sure the papers could have found it out too. However I think I know why the papers omitted the information, and strangely enough I think it was to avoid a story with racial overtones. Only the name of her husband was mentioned in the paper. They did not mention that he was black.(Iliada was white) I think in thier overzealousness to avoid a controversy they cut out too much and totally avoided the issue of domestic violence.
It really is sad how poorly that story was reported. Hell, they could have done a great parallel story with the honour murder the week previous to discuss the overall problem of domestic abuse. Instead they avoided it to placate a group that has been overly successful in shutting down stories about crime in thier community.
I don't think groups should be singled out either for extra condemnation or for extra praise. The facts and nothing but the facts are what should be reported and the full proper issue of domestic violence should be presented as an issue that all groups deal with. All of us should take steps within our communities to eliminate the violence. Not only Muslims. (and I am not suggesting that you, Wichita are stating that - I make the statement because others here do appear to think that it is only something Muslims need to discuss)
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Wichita
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Jan 13 2008, 06:24 PM
Post #139
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The Adminstrator wRench
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- Minuet
- Jan 13 2008, 08:39 PM
- Wichita
- Jan 13 2008, 08:31 AM
- Minuet
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And unless we stop playing the "we are superior" game and start facing the real issues behind domestic violence then it won't ever end.
You contradicted yourself in the same sentence. One of the "real issues" behind domestic violence is that some people use religion/cultural as a reason to justify it. Pretending that it isn't the cases will not solve the problem. And do not assume that I think that only one culture practices honor killings. When I lived in Rochester, a young woman was murdered in Florida by her estranged husband. She had fled to Florida to get away from him. His murder of her was domestic violence pure and simple. However, he did not have the means to get to Florida nor did he know where to find her. HER FAMILY (from Rochester) was the ones who told him and who helped him fix his car and pay for the repairs - despite her pleas that they keep her secret. The family's participation in the murder was based on cultural (and potentially religious) issues. They were Hispanic. They would have benefited from the education about what their culture (and religion) really believes. They said that they didn't think the guy would kill her, but they knew that he had been violent before and still thought she should try to work things out despite what she said. Tangent: - Minuet
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Maybe you should let RTW answer the question himself. I based the question on the inferences made throughout the entire thread that Muslims do not condemn these acts. If I am wrong then let him explain his comments more fully himself.
Good luck with that. :lol: I've made the same request to allow the person I've questioned to respond for himself/herself many times and have been ignored far more often than it is granted. (Actually, I rarely ever get my wish granted. :no2:) Back on-topic: - Minuet
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When was the last time the leader of your place of worship discussed it? The point is not silly. These people are silent all the time.
Nothing more than an assumption. Again, you don't do your argument any good by making unsubstantiated assumptions about other faiths and cultures. FYI, the last two wards I have attended have the Domestic Violence Shelter as their on-going, perpetual community project. (Other projects are done seasonally.) As to how Mormon men should treat their wives and children (and women treat their husbands and children) - I won't claim weekly, but darn close. As to President Bush - well, I am not in the mood to GOOGLE his speeches, but I will go out on a limb and say a major speech is done at least once a year (State of the Union). How does that compare to the leader of other coutnries? - Minuet
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You still haven't explained why it is so important for AMERICAN MUSLIMS to speak out against this issue when AMERICANS in general do not have say a word about domestic violence.
Which, of course, will come as a great surprise to the millions of Americans who support their local domestic violence shelters, see the information sent to them through United Way (regardless if they give to United Way or not) or hear the domestic violence shelter reps speak on their local TV and radio stations (just to name a few instances). Again, not helping your arguement .....
Wichita - I want to remind you that my comments that you quote here were in response to a comment that was made that Americans did not have to speak out because it's assumed that they do. My main point was that those Americans who happen to be Muslim were not given the same benefit of the doubt. I am sure that you and I can agree that Americans who happen to be Muslim also "support their local domestic violence shelters, see the information sent to them through United Way (regardless if they give to United Way or not) or hear the domestic violence shelter reps speak on their local TV and radio stations " My problem was that a few posters here were singling out Muslims as needing to be responsible to a higher degree simply because they are Muslim. It was also stated directly - and incorrectly - that Muslims do not speak out or do any of the things you listed. My beef was with the people who made those incorrect and highly biased statements.
- Minuet
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My beef was with the people who made those incorrect and highly biased statements.
Which is why I directed my comments to you.
You aren't helping your argument by making incorrect and highly biased statements yourself.
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Wichita
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Jan 13 2008, 06:32 PM
Post #140
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The Adminstrator wRench
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- Minuet
- Jan 13 2008, 09:01 PM
- Wichita
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ALL the circumstances of religion being used as an excuse should be brought to light regardless of race, creed or culture. That provides an opportunity for the people who really know that the religion does not permit the killing to say again that the religion does not justify the killing. The wider the message is disseminated the better.
I can agree with this statement. But I remind you that all of the points I made were in response to people who were singling out a specific group because of thier religion. A few posters did state straight out that they "never" hear Muslims condemning these acts. One person continued to state this even after I proved them wrong with examples. One other poster made a sarcastic comment about the "religion of peace" as well. I have no problem with the circumstances being brought to light. My beef is the fact that the circumstances are only brought to light for certain groups and the wider, mass population, is ignored. It has bothered me greatly that in the Iliada Zois murder our papers did not mention that she had been a victim of domestic abuse for a number of years. If I could find that piece of information out just by talking to a couple of her friends then I am sure the papers could have found it out too. However I think I know why the papers omitted the information, and strangely enough I think it was to avoid a story with racial overtones. Only the name of her husband was mentioned in the paper. They did not mention that he was black.(Iliada was white) I think in thier overzealousness to avoid a controversy they cut out too much and totally avoided the issue of domestic violence. It really is sad how poorly that story was reported. Hell, they could have done a great parallel story with the honour murder the week previous to discuss the overall problem of domestic abuse. Instead they avoided it to placate a group that has been overly successful in shutting down stories about crime in thier community. I don't think groups should be singled out either for extra condemnation or for extra praise. The facts and nothing but the facts are what should be reported and the full proper issue of domestic violence should be presented as an issue that all groups deal with. All of us should take steps within our communities to eliminate the violence. Not only Muslims. (and I am not suggesting that you, Wichita are stating that - I make the statement because others here do appear to think that it is only something Muslims need to discuss)
What does any of that have to do with anything that I said?
Are you saying that you aren't interested in discussing the "real" issues behind domestic violence?
I can't agree that the issue of domestic violence will be solved by simply pretending some of its causes don't exist.
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Minuet
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Jan 13 2008, 06:35 PM
Post #141
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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I wasn't refering to any particular place of worship when I made the comment. I don't know what religion RTW is and whether or not he even goes to his place of worship on a regular basis.
The point was that he doesn't ask it of anyone else. He assumes that it goes without saying for anyone other then Muslims and that is the part that really bugged me.
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Minuet
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Jan 13 2008, 06:49 PM
Post #142
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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- Wichita
- Jan 13 2008, 06:32 PM
- Minuet
- Jan 13 2008, 09:01 PM
- Wichita
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ALL the circumstances of religion being used as an excuse should be brought to light regardless of race, creed or culture. That provides an opportunity for the people who really know that the religion does not permit the killing to say again that the religion does not justify the killing. The wider the message is disseminated the better.
I can agree with this statement. But I remind you that all of the points I made were in response to people who were singling out a specific group because of thier religion. A few posters did state straight out that they "never" hear Muslims condemning these acts. One person continued to state this even after I proved them wrong with examples. One other poster made a sarcastic comment about the "religion of peace" as well. I have no problem with the circumstances being brought to light. My beef is the fact that the circumstances are only brought to light for certain groups and the wider, mass population, is ignored. It has bothered me greatly that in the Iliada Zois murder our papers did not mention that she had been a victim of domestic abuse for a number of years. If I could find that piece of information out just by talking to a couple of her friends then I am sure the papers could have found it out too. However I think I know why the papers omitted the information, and strangely enough I think it was to avoid a story with racial overtones. Only the name of her husband was mentioned in the paper. They did not mention that he was black.(Iliada was white) I think in thier overzealousness to avoid a controversy they cut out too much and totally avoided the issue of domestic violence. It really is sad how poorly that story was reported. Hell, they could have done a great parallel story with the honour murder the week previous to discuss the overall problem of domestic abuse. Instead they avoided it to placate a group that has been overly successful in shutting down stories about crime in thier community. I don't think groups should be singled out either for extra condemnation or for extra praise. The facts and nothing but the facts are what should be reported and the full proper issue of domestic violence should be presented as an issue that all groups deal with. All of us should take steps within our communities to eliminate the violence. Not only Muslims. (and I am not suggesting that you, Wichita are stating that - I make the statement because others here do appear to think that it is only something Muslims need to discuss)
What does any of that have to do with anything that I said? Are you saying that you aren't interested in discussing the "real" issues behind domestic violence? I can't agree that the issue of domestic violence will be solved by simply pretending some of its causes don't exist.
I don't know how you got that from this statement
I think you need to take what I have said in this entire thread instead of bits and pieces out of context. My objection was to focusing ONLY on Muslims to the exclusion of the rest of society. That is what some on this thread have been doing. Not all - but some. They are the ones I have been directing my comments to and them only.
None of the papers mentioned that Iliada was abused. That is abhorrent. When a Muslim does an honour killing it's all over the news because it is ok to bash Muslims. When a black man kills his wife neither his religion or his colour are mentioned. And it isn't front page news although the honour killing is.
I don't care who did the murder and if they are black, white or purple. I care that we should be outraged at all and not just a select few. If the problem is poverty in the black community then let's tackle it. Not hide from it (I am not saying that is the issue - I don't know why the man was an abuser) The point is we hide from some and focus on others and that is wrong.
Just reading yesterday's paper I found two more stories about men that killed thier wives and children. One was about a trial of a man that I don't even recall hearing the initial story on. The trial story was buried deep in the paper and had about 10 lines. Why wasn't it as big a story as a Muslim honour murder? To me it is. So yes, I do find bigotry in what is reported and the impressions it leaves. Focusing on Muslims means ignoring that others engage in the same abhorrent behaviour. I said this early on in the thread. We should not be patting ourselves on the back and saying "well at least it doesn't happen in my community" because that is false. But that is what happens when we only focus on one cause to the exclusion of others.
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RTW
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Jan 13 2008, 07:19 PM
Post #143
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Vice Admiral
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Let's me give the ol' hornet's nest a good kick....
According to the what is posted, Sarah Yaser Said (17) and Amina Yaser (18) feared their father, but it doesn't state if they feared his strict discipline or if he was abusive. It's hard to imagine that a father who was willing to kill his daughters would be unwilling to abuse them, but that is speculation.
A victim of domestic abuse for years, 22 year old Iliada Zois chose to stay with her abusive common-law husband until the abuse turned to murder.
I wouldn't expect young adults to leave their mom and dad, but I do expect a young adult to leave an abusive spouse. Is it unrealistic or unfair to differentiate? Were the years of Zois' domestic abuse not violent enough to see what was coming? That doesn't make the crime any less wrong or heinous, just not unexpected.
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Wichita
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Jan 13 2008, 08:07 PM
Post #144
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The Adminstrator wRench
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- Minuet
- Jan 13 2008, 11:49 PM
- Wichita
- Jan 13 2008, 06:32 PM
- Minuet
- Jan 13 2008, 09:01 PM
- Wichita
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ALL the circumstances of religion being used as an excuse should be brought to light regardless of race, creed or culture. That provides an opportunity for the people who really know that the religion does not permit the killing to say again that the religion does not justify the killing. The wider the message is disseminated the better.
I can agree with this statement. But I remind you that all of the points I made were in response to people who were singling out a specific group because of thier religion. A few posters did state straight out that they "never" hear Muslims condemning these acts. One person continued to state this even after I proved them wrong with examples. One other poster made a sarcastic comment about the "religion of peace" as well. I have no problem with the circumstances being brought to light. My beef is the fact that the circumstances are only brought to light for certain groups and the wider, mass population, is ignored. It has bothered me greatly that in the Iliada Zois murder our papers did not mention that she had been a victim of domestic abuse for a number of years. If I could find that piece of information out just by talking to a couple of her friends then I am sure the papers could have found it out too. However I think I know why the papers omitted the information, and strangely enough I think it was to avoid a story with racial overtones. Only the name of her husband was mentioned in the paper. They did not mention that he was black.(Iliada was white) I think in thier overzealousness to avoid a controversy they cut out too much and totally avoided the issue of domestic violence. It really is sad how poorly that story was reported. Hell, they could have done a great parallel story with the honour murder the week previous to discuss the overall problem of domestic abuse. Instead they avoided it to placate a group that has been overly successful in shutting down stories about crime in thier community. I don't think groups should be singled out either for extra condemnation or for extra praise. The facts and nothing but the facts are what should be reported and the full proper issue of domestic violence should be presented as an issue that all groups deal with. All of us should take steps within our communities to eliminate the violence. Not only Muslims. (and I am not suggesting that you, Wichita are stating that - I make the statement because others here do appear to think that it is only something Muslims need to discuss)
What does any of that have to do with anything that I said? Are you saying that you aren't interested in discussing the "real" issues behind domestic violence? I can't agree that the issue of domestic violence will be solved by simply pretending some of its causes don't exist.
I don't know how you got that from this statement I think you need to take what I have said in this entire thread instead of bits and pieces out of context. My objection was to focusing ONLY on Muslims to the exclusion of the rest of society. That is what some on this thread have been doing. Not all - but some. They are the ones I have been directing my comments to and them only. None of the papers mentioned that Iliada was abused. That is abhorrent. When a Muslim does an honour killing it's all over the news because it is ok to bash Muslims. When a black man kills his wife neither his religion or his colour are mentioned. And it isn't front page news although the honour killing is. I don't care who did the murder and if they are black, white or purple. I care that we should be outraged at all and not just a select few. If the problem is poverty in the black community then let's tackle it. Not hide from it (I am not saying that is the issue - I don't know why the man was an abuser) The point is we hide from some and focus on others and that is wrong. Just reading yesterday's paper I found two more stories about men that killed thier wives and children. One was about a trial of a man that I don't even recall hearing the initial story on. The trial story was buried deep in the paper and had about 10 lines. Why wasn't it as big a story as a Muslim honour murder? To me it is. So yes, I do find bigotry in what is reported and the impressions it leaves. Focusing on Muslims means ignoring that others engage in the same abhorrent behaviour. I said this early on in the thread. We should not be patting ourselves on the back and saying "well at least it doesn't happen in my community" because that is false. But that is what happens when we only focus on one cause to the exclusion of others.
Minuet,
Are you reading what I have posted?
I said I got nothing from that statement because it made no sense to me in light of what I had said previously. None whatsoever.
So, the only other place that I could have gotten the impression was from your comments throughout the thread. And, in fact, that is where I got this statement:
- Wichita
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Are you saying that you aren't interested in discussing the "real" issues behind domestic violence?
I can't agree that the issue of domestic violence will be solved by simply pretending some of its causes don't exist.
By consistently saying that honor killings are not different in any way shape or form than any other killing, you are saying that the root causes of that particular form of domestic violence should be ignored.
I cannot agree with you that is a sensible course of action. ALL reasons for domestic violence should be on the table to be openly discussed or they never will be fixed.
As I stated earlier, even Muslim groups who have spoken out acknowledge that the problem of honor killings does exist.
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Minuet
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Jan 13 2008, 08:53 PM
Post #145
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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- RTW
- Jan 13 2008, 07:19 PM
Let's me give the ol' hornet's nest a good kick....
According to the what is posted, Sarah Yaser Said (17) and Amina Yaser (18) feared their father, but it doesn't state if they feared his strict discipline or if he was abusive. It's hard to imagine that a father who was willing to kill his daughters would be unwilling to abuse them, but that is speculation.
A victim of domestic abuse for years, 22 year old Iliada Zois chose to stay with her abusive common-law husband until the abuse turned to murder.
I wouldn't expect young adults to leave their mom and dad, but I do expect a young adult to leave an abusive spouse. Is it unrealistic or unfair to differentiate? Were the years of Zois' domestic abuse not violent enough to see what was coming? That doesn't make the crime any less wrong or heinous, just not unexpected.
Fear can make people do a lot of things you think they should not.
Fear of not finding love elsewhere (yes, I know it's not love - but the feelings of these women are complicated and they think it is love)
Fear of being harmed much the way she was when she did try to leave - she had 2 brothers come to back her up and yet her fears came to pass.
In both the honour killing and the spousal murders there is one common theme. Control. It seems simple to say leave. And for many women it is easy (it would be for me). But not every woman is the same. Some are less strong minded.
I only saw Iliada a couple of times (the store only opened in November) My personal impression was that of a quiet young lady. We didn't work in the same department and never spoke, except a hello in passing. She did always look tired. Others said that she was a beautiful person and the type always willing to jump in and help. A very accomodating person. In hindsight maybe looking for approval? Who knows. I don't claim to know and am only speculating.
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Minuet
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Jan 13 2008, 09:01 PM
Post #146
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Wichita - the common theme of abuse is control. Honour is an excuse. Yes, they do need to discuss it among themselves to combat it.
But on this board and in the media some would have you think that these honour murders were the only kind of abuse taking place. That we are somehow "better" because we don't do it.
I am trying to show that we are not "better". Not to you, but to others. You came in late and seem to think my message was for you. It was not.
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RTW
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Jan 13 2008, 10:01 PM
Post #147
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- Minuet
- Jan 13 2008, 06:53 PM
Fear can make people do a lot of things you think they should not.
Fear of not finding love elsewhere (yes, I know it's not love - but the feelings of these women are complicated and they think it is love)
Fear of being harmed much the way she was when she did try to leave - she had 2 brothers come to back her up and yet her fears came to pass.
In both the honour killing and the spousal murders there is one common theme. Control. It seems simple to say leave. And for many women it is easy (it would be for me). But not every woman is the same. Some are less strong minded.
I only saw Iliada a couple of times (the store only opened in November) My personal impression was that of a quiet young lady. We didn't work in the same department and never spoke, except a hello in passing. She did always look tired. Others said that she was a beautiful person and the type always willing to jump in and help. A very accomodating person. In hindsight maybe looking for approval? Who knows. I don't claim to know and am only speculating.
That response was both pleasant and enlightening. Thank you.
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Wichita
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Jan 14 2008, 06:37 AM
Post #148
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The Adminstrator wRench
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- Minuet
- Jan 14 2008, 02:01 AM
Wichita - the common theme of abuse is control. Honour is an excuse. Yes, they do need to discuss it among themselves to combat it.
Then I am going to suggest that you really don't know much about honor killings. (Not that I do, but I would never simply write the whole thing off as an "excuse".)
For one thing, are you aware that the person who actually commits the honor killing is often the family member closest to the victim?
That many describe the victim as their "favorite" sibling?
It isn't an "excuse" that causes someone to kill the person closest to them. It isn't an "excuse" that creates a situation where multiple family members know that a family member is going to be murdered, help the murderer commit the crime and then, often, help the murderer escape.
Again, something that will cause families to do that together is not a convenient "excuse" but a deeply held belief. I absolutely agree that it is a "wrongly" held belief based on actual religious documents, but frankly, I suspect that you would offend a lot of people in that culture by calling it an "excuse".
We aren't going to solve the problem of domestic violence by pretending some of its causes don't exist, or, for that matter, taking those causes out of context and calling them something else.
- Minuet
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But on this board and in the media some would have you think that these honour murders were the only kind of abuse taking place. That we are somehow "better" because we don't do it.
You may be absolutely correct in saying that the media in Canada doesn't allow for discussion of domestic violence issues. There are several cases before you HRC right now that are getting a lot of discussion in US media in fact on what is permitted to be discussed and what isn't in Canada.
But remember, the US media has free speech protection. Yes, there is a bias in what they report, but domestic violence isn't an issue that they shy away from in my experience. I can't go a week without hearing at least one radio or television program on the subject and newpaper reports on such issues are frequent.
I have also read this entire thread and I haven't seen anyone say that there is NO other abuse taking place. The subject of the thread happens to center around a POSSIBLE honor killing so it makes perfect sense that is what people are discussing.
You are certainly free to start a thread on domestic violence in general and, perhaps, that would give you a better picture of what people really think on the subject.
- Minuet
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I am trying to show that we are not "better". Not to you, but to others. You came in late and seem to think my message was for you. It was not.
And, again, I am trying to say to you that by posting equally incorrect comments, you are HURTING what you say that you are trying to do.
Your comments aren't "correct" because they are directed at someone else instead of me.
Now, if you meant each and every one of those comments SARCASTICALLY then you might have a point. Then, I would suggest that you might want to LABEL them as such so everyone knows what you are trying to do when you do it.
Saying something after the fact makes it sound like an .......
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Minuet
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Jan 14 2008, 09:21 AM
Post #149
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Wichita - 8247 made the claim that honour murders deserve special attention because he hears about them at least "once a month"
That adds up to 12 a year and he didn't say if those were all in the US. My point was that 3 women a day are murdered in the US. That is well over a thousand (1095 to be more accurate) - only in the US, not worldwide. The numbers worldwide would be much much larger. And I am only mentioning the women. Not the children.
He also originally made the claim that Muslims didn't speak out against it. He backed off with my examples but RTW has maintained that they do not speak out.
Now maybe this is just my impression - but if 8247 thinks that once a month is significant compared to well over a thousand I am guessing that overall he doesn't hear a lot in your media about domestic abuse. I am guessing that he doesn't hear a lot about those women because thier stories are buried on back pages. Just another statistic. I see the stories on the back pages myself. It wasn't until I was a bit closer to a story that I realized the imbalance of only focusing on one type of abuse. This is not a case either in the US or Canada of media not being allowed to report things. It's more about what they CHOOSE to report and what they CHOOSE to focus on.
And that creates an atmosphere where people are ready to jump all over Muslims every time one of these cases occurs. They are becoming the scapegoats for a problem that is much bigger then 12 murders a year.
When 12 murders a year becomes significantly more important then the other 1083 that occur due to related causes there is something wrong with our focus.
I want to clarify my comment about honour being an excuse. I made this comment because there are abusive parents from every walk in life. Each one has thier stated reasons. One will say their child is "the devil's spawn", another will say they know their wife cheats and is a slut. These people are all making excuses. The truth is that they are sick individuals. The issue of abuse runs far deeper then the surface excuses. Even in those countries that seem to sanction honour murders the actual numbers don't seem to exceed the number of domestic abuse cases in western countries. If every one of those countries spoke out against honour murders only I am not sure the number of domestic abuse cases would go down. Those who use the honour excuse now would just find a different excuse. The women and children would still be dead. The causes of domestic abuse run much deeper then just honour murders. They are a result - not the symptom. We need to focus on and treat the symptoms.
Edit - I also want to add that in both the honour murder here in Toronto and the murders of the two girls that started this thread there were reports from friends at school that the girls were afraid of thier fathers. So abuse was an ongoing thing and the honour murder didn't just happen out of nowhere due to an actual breach of honour. Fear was a part of these girls lives thier entire life.
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ImpulseEngine
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Jan 14 2008, 11:40 AM
Post #150
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Admiral
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- RTW
- Jan 12 2008, 11:58 PM
Stated: Honor killings, murders to preserve family honor, are most prevalent in muslim populations.
Not stated: Honor killings are prevalent in all muslim populations. Not stated: Honor killings only occur in muslim populations.
In order to continue discussing this with you I need further clarification.
1) While you are not saying that honor killings occur in all Muslim populations, are you saying they occur in most Muslim populations?
2) Would it be fair for me to state your position more precisely as follows:
Where you said: "Honor killings, murders to preserve family honor, are most prevalent in muslim populations."
I would restate as: "Honor killings, murders to preserve family honor, are most prevalent in certain specific muslim populations."
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