Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Alexander Tyler and Democracy
Topic Started: Jan 2 2008, 11:17 AM (624 Views)
RTW
Member Avatar
Vice Admiral
38957
Jan 2 2008, 11:41 AM
I would actually love to see this battle, between a congress addicted to "pork-barrel politics" and a stuborn President who refuses to go along with it, it would amuze me and I think that it would be healthy. Either the government would shut down ;) or congress would cave ;) or congress would have to stand and defend all of the earmarks and excesses in order to get a veto-proof vote ;) . I have a suspicion that most congressmen would be embarrassed if some of the stuff they fund got much attention by the public.

Agreed! That would be fun!

If only we could have Paul for domestic issues and another for foreign policy issues....
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
ds9074
Member Avatar
Admiral
Quote:
 
the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury

If this is true how did Mrs Thatcher manage to win 3 consecutive general elections?
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
8247
Member Avatar
Apparently we look like this now
Ok, I'm an idiot, and Dante and Min are the super geniuses.

They would rather nit pick at the quote, and take every sentence literally. Dante...Did you not see the people on the rooftops on TV with signs that said "SAVE ME!" Who do you think they were begging to save them? Superman?

Its just a quote that gives examples of progression that have taken place here in the USA.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
8247
Jan 2 2008, 05:42 PM
Ok, I'm an idiot, and Dante and Min are the super geniuses.

They would rather nit pick at the quote, and take every sentence literally. Dante...Did you not see the people on the rooftops on TV with signs that said "SAVE ME!" Who do you think they were begging to save them? Superman?


Asking for an example of a civilization that has actually gone through the stages described in order to prove that the hypothesis is correct is "nitpicking"?

Geeze - if you present a hypothesis you should be prepared to defend it. Don't throw a hissy fit just because someone asked you to prove your case.

Quote:
 
Its just a quote that gives examples of progression that have taken place here in the USA.


Actually that is NOT what it is. It is a quote that purports to give a progression that all superpowers go through before they fall - it is designed around what the author sees going on in the US. But unless you can show that this same progression happened to other countries then it is nothing but a piece of fiction designed to forward a partisan political agenda.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Addendum to above - I decided to research the quote myself to see if I could find some information about what civilizations the author might have been thinking of when he wrote the quote.

I came up with some interesting information. Seems that this entire hypothesis is fictitious and the name given for the author is incorrect. Please read point number 3 in the following link from Snopes (I can't quote the section directly here - Snopes doesn't allow cut and paste on it's site)

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

Edit - here is more information about the quote

http://www.lorencollins.net/tytler.html

Quote:
 
And that is where the vice of misattribution lies. Perhaps the words speak the truth of democratic governments; or perhaps they do not. But either way, attributing the words to a scholar who never spoke them is to lend to them an authority and reliability that they do not deserve. Anonymous quotes, which these almost certainly are, should not be given fictitious attributions merely to lend credence to the messages they impart. To do so is to favor persuasiveness over accuracy, and to sacrifice truth for the sake of image.

Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
8247
Member Avatar
Apparently we look like this now
Minuet
Jan 2 2008, 06:13 PM
8247
Jan 2 2008, 05:42 PM
Ok, I'm an idiot, and Dante and Min are the super geniuses.

They would rather nit pick at the quote, and take every sentence literally. Dante...Did you not see the people on the rooftops on TV with signs that said "SAVE ME!" Who do you think they were begging to save them? Superman?


Asking for an example of a civilization that has actually gone through the stages described in order to prove that the hypothesis is correct is "nitpicking"?

Geeze - if you present a hypothesis you should be prepared to defend it. Don't throw a hissy fit just because someone asked you to prove your case.

Quote:
 
Its just a quote that gives examples of progression that have taken place here in the USA.


Actually that is NOT what it is. It is a quote that purports to give a progression that all superpowers go through before they fall - it is designed around what the author sees going on in the US. But unless you can show that this same progression happened to other countries then it is nothing but a piece of fiction designed to forward a partisan political agenda.

The author died many many years ago. The quote was made in the 1700's.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
8247
Member Avatar
Apparently we look like this now
Minuet
Jan 2 2008, 06:25 PM
Addendum to above - I decided to research the quote myself to see if I could find some information about what civilizations the author might have been thinking of when he wrote the quote.

I came up with some interesting information. Seems that this entire hypothesis is fictitious and the name given for the author is incorrect. Please read point number 3 in the following link from Snopes (I can't quote the section directly here - Snopes doesn't allow cut and paste on it's site)

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

Edit - here is more information about the quote

http://www.lorencollins.net/tytler.html

Quote:
 
And that is where the vice of misattribution lies. Perhaps the words speak the truth of democratic governments; or perhaps they do not. But either way, attributing the words to a scholar who never spoke them is to lend to them an authority and reliability that they do not deserve. Anonymous quotes, which these almost certainly are, should not be given fictitious attributions merely to lend credence to the messages they impart. To do so is to favor persuasiveness over accuracy, and to sacrifice truth for the sake of image.


And, here's another link on it...

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/quotes.htm

Quote:
 
Alexander Tyler (When the thirteen colonies were still a part of England, Scottish Historian/Professor Alexander Tyler wrote about the fall of the Athenian republic over two thousand years previous to that time. NOTE > some have questioned the source of this quote, and that the last name was 'Tytler', not Tyler)


I simply found it interesting that every progression has happened in that order, with the US.

Maybe he was real, maybe he wasn't. The quote is there, and I posted what it said. Can we please discuss that, rather than who said what?

Dante disagrees with my analysis. That's fine. Can we get to that please?
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
8247 I am trying to discuss this. It is you who are avoiding my main question. Let's try this again.

To prove the hypothesis is correct you need to show me a country/civilization that has gone through the steps outlined and had the outcome claimed. Without that then the entire hypothesis falls apart.

Do you understand what I am asking for?????

I am not going to accept at face value a hypothesis that was NOT made by a real historian and not backed up by a single example. If you want a discussion then don't insult my intelligence by expecting me to just accept that what you picked up on the internet is "true". Prove it's truthfulness and then we can discuss whether or not it is happening. But you have to start with the truthfulness of the basic premise. Without that we are left with nothing to discuss.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
8247
Member Avatar
Apparently we look like this now
Alexander Tyler (When the thirteen colonies were still a part of England, Scottish Historian/Professor Alexander Tyler wrote about the fall of the Athenian republic over two thousand years previous to that time. NOTE > some have questioned the source of this quote, and that the last name was 'Tytler', not Tyler)
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
8247
Jan 2 2008, 08:15 PM
Alexander Tyler (When the thirteen colonies were still a part of England, Scottish Historian/Professor Alexander Tyler wrote about the fall of the Athenian republic over two thousand years previous to that time. NOTE > some have questioned the source of this quote, and that the last name was 'Tytler', not Tyler)

1) ALEXANDER TYLER IS NOT A REAL PERSON - AND NEVER MADE THAT COMMENT IN RELATION TO THE FALL OF THE ATHENIAN REPUBLIC. ANOTHER PERSON WITH A SIMILAR NAME WROTE ABOUT THE ATHENIAN REPUBLIC BUT NEVER WROTE THE QUOTED PASSAGE. IT IS A FORGERY

2) HOWEVER, IF YOU WISH TO CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSION PLEASE SHOW ME WHEN THE ATHENIAN REPUBLIC WENT THROUGH THE SPECIFIC STAGES AND HOW THAT CONTRIBUTED TO IT'S DOWNFALL. BONUS POINTS IF YOU CAN GIVE EXAMPLES OF OTHER CIVILIZATIONS
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
8247
Member Avatar
Apparently we look like this now
Whatever... :rolleyes:

Since you're not capable of overlooking the fact that I didn't look far enough into this before I posted it, and discuss it anyway, just report it, and have the thread closed.

Question...If someone else had posted this as his or her opinion, would you be willing to discuss it?
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
I am willing to discuss this. I said three times already that I would - if you would prove that the steps outlined happened to another civilization and actually led to their downfall. Do you have trouble comprehending a simple request to prove the theory - regardless of it's origin?

Your comment asking me if I would react to anyone else differently is just silly nonsense. Sounds to me like you are going to the RTW school of avoiding discussion by changing the topic. :rolleyes:

Edit - let me try this one other way. At this point to start I am not questioning whether the USA fits the steps outlined. I am questioning whether fitting those steps automatically leads to decline. I am asking you to show that it actually led to decline in other instances rather then simply taking the quote at face value.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
For further clarification this is the section I am asking you to prove by providing examples where it actually happened

Quote:
 
a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policies followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
8247
Member Avatar
Apparently we look like this now
No, I admitted that I didnt read into it enough, but I would like to discuss what's said anyway. The points seem to be at least worth talking about.

I'm not going to say that again. And, no I don't have a link to back that up.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
8247
Jan 2 2008, 09:03 PM
No, I admitted that I didnt read into it enough, but I would like to discuss what's said anyway. The points seem to be at least worth talking about.

I'm not going to say that again. And, no I don't have a link to back that up.

:headscratch:

So discuss it.

Prove that those items really do lead to decline.

I don't understand why you find my question so difficult to comprehend. You simply cannot expect me to accept at face value that the decline always happens.

First prove to me that those points happened to other countries - any other country. Then we can discuss if those things are happening in the US and whether it is leading to decline and dictatorship.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Politics and World Events Forum · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Tweet
comments powered by Disqus