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Alexander Tyler and Democracy
Topic Started: Jan 2 2008, 11:17 AM (620 Views)
8247
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Apparently we look like this now
Alexander Tyler, Scottish Historian


Quote:
 
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policies followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;

From spiritual faith to great courage;

From courage to liberty;

From to liberty to abundance;

From abundance to selfishness;

From selfishness to complacency;

From complacency to apathy;

From apathy to dependency; and,

From dependency back to bondage.


Sound like a certain country to anyone?


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Minuet
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The USA is already over 200 years old.

Do you really think it will collapse into a dictatorship? I don't really see that happening. :shrug:

I am suprised to hear this sentiment from you Frimp.
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Dandandat
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Does Alexander Tyler some how prove these statments?


Quote:
 
From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury,



Quote:
 
The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence:
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Dandandat
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Minuet
Jan 2 2008, 12:08 PM
The USA is already over 200 years old.

Do you really think it will collapse into a dictatorship? I don't really see that happening.  :shrug:

I am suprised to hear this sentiment from you Frimp.

Any country that collapses is prone to dictatorship, So the question becomes "Can the US really collapse?", and that is at least imaginable.
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Hoss
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Dandandat
Jan 2 2008, 12:09 PM
Does Alexander Tyler some how prove these statments?


Quote:
 
From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury,



Quote:
 
The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence:

The first statement has been mostly true in the USA since FDR convinced so many people that the government needed to save them from life.
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Hoss
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Dandandat
Jan 2 2008, 12:12 PM
Minuet
Jan 2 2008, 12:08 PM
The USA is already over 200 years old.

Do you really think it will collapse into a dictatorship? I don't really see that happening.  :shrug:

I am suprised to hear this sentiment from you Frimp.

Any country that collapses is prone to dictatorship, So the question really is can the US really collapse, and that is at least imaginable.

It is imaginable in my opinion. The Executive branch has gotten progressively more powerful and larger over the years. The trend shows no sign of reversing.
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8247
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Minuet
Jan 2 2008, 12:08 PM
The USA is already over 200 years old.

Do you really think it will collapse into a dictatorship? I don't really see that happening. :shrug:

I am suprised to hear this sentiment from you Frimp.

Well, lets look at it shall we? I'm hoping that we as a nation wake up before the power gluttons make us completely dependant on Govco.

From bondage to spiritual faith; Happened

From spiritual faith to great courage; Happened

From courage to liberty; Happened

From to liberty to abundance; Happened

From abundance to selfishness; Happened

From selfishness to complacency; Happened

From complacency to apathy; Happened

From apathy to dependency; and, Happening

From dependency back to bondage. ???
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Dandandat
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38957
Jan 2 2008, 12:13 PM
The first statement has been mostly true in the USA since FDR convinced so many people that the government needed to save them from life.

First, if I where to take your statement as truth, its not evidence that in any democracy the majority will vote them selves, through voting for a candidate, the most money from the treasury once they discover they can do so. It would only prove that the US has done this. I make this point because the rest of the passage is predicated on the fact that this is reoccurring if not always true of democracies.

Second, is it even true that FDR “convinced so many people that the government needed to save them from life” and is it true that since FDR’s presidency the majority has for the most part voted themselves, through voting for a candidate, an increasing amount of money from the treasury?

Third, In the case of the US, technically speaking how effective can the majority’s candidate really be at delivering funds from the US treasury since the funds are governed by an unelected board of governors?

Which to that last point; I read that you recently decided to back Ron Paul for president, does it bother you that he plans abolish the Federal Reserve Bank placing monitory policy directly into the hands of electable officials, who will then be elected base on how much money they promise to give out?



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Dandandat
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8247
Jan 2 2008, 12:58 PM
From bondage to spiritual faith; Happened


When?

Quote:
 
From spiritual faith to great courage; Happened


When?

Quote:
 
From courage to liberty; Happened


Ok that happend, (at diffrent times for diffrent groups of people)

Quote:
 
From to liberty to abundance; Happened


Yes

Quote:
 
From abundance to selfishness; Happened


Arguably

Quote:
 
From selfishness to complacency; Happened


Well since the selfishness part of it is arguable the next step is even more arguable.

Quote:
 
From complacency to apathy; Happened


Same as above.

Quote:
 
From apathy to dependency; and, Happening


Once again.

Quote:
 
From dependency back to bondage. ???


Since the first two in the progression never happened for the US, and three of the last four are arguable, why would one draw the conclusion that the last one will come to pass?
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Hoss
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First, that is why I qualified my statement with "USA" and "mostly".

Second, "is it even true that FDR “convinced so many people that the government needed to save them from life”": well, I think it is. And secondly, the congress are directly elected and consistently the congressmen have successfully campaigned on and delivered 'pork' to secure votes in their district. So, yes, I think that it is true. My parents generation has, by proxy, spent us into a hole and now i get to be the dude trying to drag them out.

Third, it doesn't scare me as much as our government increasing in size and power almost without bound. I beleive that a President Paul would stick by his guns on the budget. I don't beleive that a President Romney would. Consider this my key issue this year.
I beleive that it is becoming increasing critical for our economic future to operate on the principal of a balanced budget, have a limited government that actually feels oblidged to stay within those limits, and to begin phasing out social security. Ron Paul is closest on this for me. I am afraid of the very dependancy that creates the bondage that this thread is about.
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Dandandat
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38957
Jan 2 2008, 01:18 PM
First, that is why I qualified my statement with "USA" and "mostly".

I know, but I was saying that for the passage to be credible it has to stand by more then one example. Otherwise it is useless, the majority of the US could be voting it self more from the treasury each election cycle. But that fact does not lead to collapsing and dictatorship if the progression can not be proved else where.


Quote:
 
I beleive that it is becoming increasing critical for our economic future to operate on the principal of a balanced budget, have a limited government that actually feels oblidged to stay within those limits, and to begin phasing out social security.  Ron Paul is closest on this for me.  I am afraid of the very dependancy that creates the bondage that this thread is about.


This passage would suggest that it is inevitable.

Also with Ron Paul unwilling to wheeled immense presidential power, how does he hope to keep in check all those congressmen who don’t feel the same away about a small government and pander by adding pork?
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Hoss
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Dandandat
Jan 2 2008, 01:32 PM
38957
Jan 2 2008, 01:18 PM
First, that is why I qualified my statement with "USA" and "mostly".

I know, but I was saying that for the passage to be credible it has to stand by more then one example. Otherwise it is useless, the majority of the US could be voting it self more from the treasury each election cycle. But that fact does not lead to collapsing and dictatorship if the progression can not be proved else where.


Quote:
 
I beleive that it is becoming increasing critical for our economic future to operate on the principal of a balanced budget, have a limited government that actually feels oblidged to stay within those limits, and to begin phasing out social security.  Ron Paul is closest on this for me.  I am afraid of the very dependancy that creates the bondage that this thread is about.


This passage would suggest that it is inevitable.

Also with Ron Paul unwilling to wheeled immense presidential power, how does he hope to keep in check all those congressmen who don’t feel the same away about a small government and pander by adding pork?

The president can veto. I would assume that he would veto a budget that was beyond the limits placed on the government.

So, what if they over-ride his veto? The executive branch is in charge or enforcing laws and spending the money. He could just refuse to do it.... By the way, he runs the military too.

I would actually love to see this battle, between a congress addicted to "pork-barrel politics" and a stuborn President who refuses to go along with it, it would amuze me and I think that it would be healthy. Either the government would shut down ;) or congress would cave ;) or congress would have to stand and defend all of the earmarks and excesses in order to get a veto-proof vote ;) . I have a suspicion that most congressmen would be embarrassed if some of the stuff they fund got much attention by the public.
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8247
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From bondage to spiritual faith; Happened, when we left England to come here

From spiritual faith to great courage; Happened, when certain colonists demanded independence

From courage to liberty; Happened, revolutionary war

From to liberty to abundance; Happened, we are the richest nation in the world

From abundance to selfishness; Happened, one example I can think of is people like Al Gore telling everyone how to live from the seat of his private jet...Another is people having the welfare mentality...popping out kids at government expense for the money, and not caring about the kid.

From selfishness to complacency; Happened, We have people who will vote for or against Huckabee because he's a Christian, for or against Obama because he's black, or for or against Clinton because she is a woman, not knowing anything about what they stand for...

From complacency to apathy; Happened How many people do you know who simply don't care who wins an election?

From apathy to dependency; and, Happening When did we become a nation of people who say "Govco! Save me!!!" Don't know what I'm talking about? Gogle the words 'hurricane katrina'

From dependency back to bondage. ???
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Dandandat
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8247
Jan 2 2008, 02:10 PM
From bondage to spiritual faith; Happened, when we left England to come here

The people who left Europe to come here already had spiritual faith, they did not transition from bondage to spiritual faith. The founders of the country proper mostly weren’t ever in bondage nore in all cases linked to those trying to escape religious persecution. I would have to disagree with you, The United States democratic society never transitioned form bondage to spiritually.

Quote:
 
From spiritual faith to great courage; Happened, when certain colonists demanded independence


The colonists did not demand independence due to any spiritual faith. These are separate issues that are no progressionary as this passage would have use believe. Once again United States democratic society never transitioned form spiritual faith to an instance of great courage.

Quote:
 
From courage to liberty; Happened, revolutionary war 


The revolutionary war did not grant liberty to everyone, it granted liberty to white wealthy land owners. Over time that liberty was transitioned to other groups as they to ganed the courage to make changes. So while yes this happened, it hardly happened in the manner described in this passage.

Quote:
 
From to liberty to abundance; Happened, we are the richest nation in the world


Yes

Quote:
 
From abundance to selfishness; Happened, one example I can think of is people like Al Gore telling everyone how to live from the seat of his private jet...Another is people having the welfare mentality...popping out kids at government expense for the money, and not caring about the kid.


One example is hardly enough to attribute to a whole society which is why I said this fact was arguable.

I do have to ask you a question, what is the example of selfishness that describes your contribution to this trend?

Quote:
 
From selfishness to complacency; Happened, We have people who will vote for or against Huckabee because he's a Christian, for or against  Obama because he's black, or for or against Clinton because she is a woman, not knowing anything about what they stand for...


Same could have been said two hundred years ago, in fact two hundred years ago Huckabee, Obama and Clinton wouldn’t even get a send glance because people would not vote them despite not knowing anything about what they stood for. It would seem to me we have improved on that count not denigrated.

So once again its arguable, even more so because of the progressionary manner of the passage.


Quote:
 
From complacency to apathy; Happened How many people do you know who simply don't care who wins an election?


Acuasly I counldn't say how many. All of the people I know well enough to know the answer to this question do care about elections.


Quote:
 
From apathy to dependency; and, Happening When did we become a nation of people who say "Govco! Save me!!!" Don't know what I'm talking about? Gogle the words 'hurricane katrina'      


I did a search on 'hurricane katrina' I couldn’t find a link with the words "Govco! Save me"

So I did a search for "Govco! Save me" and still I found nothing.

I did a search for Govco and got this Link

That said the only people I hear using the word Govco are those trying to make the argument that the government is helping people to much. I have yet to hear anyone asking govco to save them.

So once again this is arguable.


Quote:
 
From dependency back to bondage. ???


So once again I still question the idea that democracies progress in the manner descried in this passage. And to answer you question more directly; no this passage doesn’t remind me of any country in particular.
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Minuet
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I'm curious - could any of you actually name a specific country/civilization that has gone through those exact stages? (give specific examples of the stages please)
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