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The Atheists Mantra; Why is the thought of no afterlife scary
Topic Started: Sep 28 2005, 10:24 AM (1,293 Views)
Fesarius
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Admiral
Actually, it was a thread on Angels, of which Satan is one. I can't recall how long ago it was started.
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HistoryDude
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Shaken, not stirred...
Dandandat and psyfi,

You two are right. I did not mean to generalize. I did not mean to imply or represent that a person is bad just because they’re Atheist, nor did I mean to say that all Atheists think and act alike. As a historian I know better than to generalize. And I am no psychologist. But, again, as I said, from my experience, both being an Atheist and since, many people who do not believe in God or do not want to, do so because of some/all of those reasons I stated. I am willing to entertain other possibilities that “define the Atheists’ mantra.” I apologize to you, Dan, and also to captain proton_au if he was offended, too.

But I also believe that those who do not believe in God and accept Jesus are lost. I don’t know, perhaps that is one core example of a Christian absolute that you were looking for,
Dan, when you asked for brevity’s sake? Simply being a good person is not enough. That is just my belief, plain and simple. I did not make it up. I am not making judgments on others. I am not doing God’s job. It is God’s judgment, not mine, and He has said that and said it clearly and if I am to believe in Him, I am not to pick and choose which of his words I am to believe. And if He is God, He is God of everything. He is not just my personal God or the God of only Christians, but the God of everyone. So, in a sense, in that manner, yes, I think others should be Christian, too, because I want them to know Jesus (yes, I know others claim to be perfectly happy and joyful without Him). So when I talk about subjects of this nature, I might come off preachy, self segregated, judgmental, backward, old fashion, close minded, uppity, and sheepish. Perhaps I need work on expressing my opinions in a less abrasive manner? But I will continue to speak out for the Truth. God has told us to do as much. But that does not mean that I treat anyone any different because they hold a different belief. I work and play with people of various beliefs, backgrounds, and lifestyles. I am not intolerant of them.

In life, I really try to show Jesus by action, rather than words. However, on a forum, all we have are words. I’ll try to use more expressions of encouragement. But as this is a debate, I said what I believe…about God and others. I don’t think Atheists or others who think differently than me are ignorant and I don’t think they’re ideas are ignorant. I do believe, though, they are not the Truth and the Way.

As for Satan…God is more powerful and has already defeated him. And that makes sense, too, because can God really be God if Satan was more powerful. And where is any Hope if Satan (evil) is more powerful than God (good)?
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Dandandat
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Well of course I do not agree with your position, I do find the above post understandable compared to the original one that you posted.


From the above post the only thing I have a comment for is this portion:

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But I also believe that those who do not believe in God and accept Jesus are lost. I don’t know, perhaps that is one core example of a Christian absolute that you were looking for, Dan, when you asked for brevity’s sake?


Everything else is your beliefs and I can accept that. If you think we are “lost” so be it. That is a concept that maybe true if you are correct and there is a god and he is as you say he is. I can not argue my states of being lost with out proof that there is no god. However that is different then saying to be Atheists is to be amoral, morality is something that is quantifiable in the hear and now, as an atheist I and I am sure many others can tell you we have morals (many of them the same as a theistic person), so to say we do not was the misrepresentation I was talking about.

Now for my comment on the above, the idea of being “lost” was not what I was asking for. That concept goes right to the heart of “belief or disbelief” and is only answered when the end finally comes, ether you are right or I am. I was speaking more to the concept you brought up of amorality, you where saying something to the effect that with out god there is only law that governance how atheistic person conducts them selves. I was asking for examples of what behavioral morals a theistic person posses that an atheistic person can not because of his denial of god? To be clearer you said:

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No I do not. I do believe Atheist = Hedonist. Anarchist is a political term and should Atheism become the majority lifestyle in society, I would hope the rule of law would still keep order and government.


So for my question let’s imagine that the rule of law where to some how disappear. What behavior will only theistic people posses that atheist people will not/ can not? How do you prove that Atheist = Hedonist.

Hedonist = A person devoted to pleasure and luxury. That doesn’t describe me what so ever – how do I fit into that idea?
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captain_proton_au
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A Robot in Disguise

I'd like to hear from History Dude, Who and others their thoughts on:

If this world was created by God, why all the different religions?

Why hasnt the belief of the God of Abraham spread over all of the world?


What is your interpretation of what happens to Buddhists, Hindus, Athiests , basically everyone that doesnt believe in the God of Abraham, when they die?
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HistoryDude
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Dandandat
Oct 6 2005, 12:33 PM
So for my question let’s imagine that the rule of law where to some how disappear. What behavior will only theistic people posses that atheist people will not/ can not? How do you prove that Atheist = Hedonist.

Hedonist = A person devoted to pleasure and luxury. That doesn’t describe me what so ever – how do I fit into that idea?

Well, unless we lump all Atheists together, again, then that can't be answered. Because if there are no rules and absolutes to go by, its all relative to each individual. I can go ahead and list Christian morals, and then an Atheist can come by and say, "Oh, I follow that one there. Oh, and that one there, too." Another could say, "Whatever, dude."

If you are not a hedonist, then great. So we'll just say some Atheists are not, some are, some are in between. Some Atheists will have Christian-like morals, some will have what they call other morals based on their own personal opinions or other beliefs, and some may have no morals at all. And even those with morals may not help their fellow man, but just live their own life. To my mind, this is an uncertain mess and a scary situation. Where are the rules? They are as the individual makes them up and are different for each person. And I think that is dangerous.

You say you help others because, "It matters because helping others makes one feel good, it matters because we love others and want to see them prosper, I do all that I can so that my children have a better life then I do, even if that means I have to sacrifice." Without hope for anything beyond we turn to dust and especially without the rule of law and government (if you want to pretend its somehow disappeared), then I doubt the majority of individuals will adhere to that idea. Why should they? There are no consequences for immoral behavior from either God or law. Now I cannot prove that society would then degrade to hedonism and lawlessness anymore than you can prove that some noble human spirit will overcome it...as it is all hypothetical.

Sure, there are all kinds of Christian morals/rules/lifestyles that an Atheist could posses one or more of. Basic things like treating others with respect, serving others with love, don't steal, don't murder, encourage one another, observe the sanctity of marriage, avoid the dragon of materialism. But by and large, most Atheists I knew, know now, and have read about and seen in general American society follow only some of these. And then there is a big one that by default a non-Christian could not have and that is have no other idols (spiritual, secular, physical, yourself, or life-style base) before God. And take away the rule of law and then even the no-brainers like "Thou shall not steal" and "Thou shall not murder" become even fair game. Why should anyone care because at that point it becomes survival of the strongest...or most ruthless. Let alone, what about the "Thou shall not commit adultery" and other ones that more and more people in our growing secular society our already beginning to see no problem with...
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HistoryDude
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captain_proton_au
Oct 6 2005, 12:50 PM
If this world was created by God, why all the different religions?

This question would take a theologian to explain in clear terms. I cannot. I have read about it and studied it, but could not begin to concisely explain the Christian viewpoint on this subject. It would take much more than I could write here. The basics would include that different ideas have spread and developed because of our own free will and the fact that God did not reveal Himself all at once to the entire world. At the moment in History when he revealed Himself to Abraham and his descendents and sent Jesus to live and die for His creation, He chose the Middle Eastern area for a specific reason...at the time, it was a very central location in the world of the greatest civilizations, a crossroads in the cradle of civilization itself and between other powers such as Egypt, India and the Far East, those powers in the Middle East like Assyria, Babylon, and Persia, and later Greece and Rome to the West. So revealing Himself in that area of the world allowed his chosen people (chosen not because they were better than any others, but because of Abraham's faith and being in a position to influence the world at that crossroads). From there and since, it has been the task of followers of Christ to reveal Him, His grace, mercy, love, and truth to the world. He told His people as much in the Old Testament many times and then there is the Great Commission given by Jesus in Matthew 28: 19-20, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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Why hasnt the belief of the God of Abraham spread over all of the world?


It has. It began in earnest, one might argue, with Abraham and continues today in many different mediums, some of which Abraham could never have dreamt of. No, not every single person of course, nor maybe even the majority in many countries, have become Christian, but its all tied up with that free will issue, and others. But Christianity still has more adherents than any religion or life-philosophy around the world. My church, Nazarene, is doing tremendous missionary work around the world and growing in missions, pastors, and members. In fact, we are one of the few protestant churches whose world membership is greater than its American membership! :P

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What is your interpretation of what happens to Buddhists, Hindus, Athiests , basically everyone that doesnt believe in the God of Abraham, when they die?


Well, this is what will get me in trouble, again, I'm sure. I am not judging anyone or putting anyone else's religion down or attacking anyone, nor do I think I'm better than them. This is what God has said and I just know in my heart to be true. If Jesus has been revealed to a some one in an earnest, honest, and loving way, and has been taught His commandments, yet that person still does not accept His sacrifice, nor repent of his/her sins (and Christians believe we are all born with sin), then that person is lost. That is the fundamental truth that binds, or should bind, all Christian denominations and churches. For those who have never been shown Jesus, it is another matter and cannot be condemned.

And to add some mud to the issue, even for Christians who profess to live a Christ-like lifestyle (and even do), they need to be careful, still. For James (James 2:26) tells us that faith without works is dead, and Jesus tells us that those branches that do not produce fruit will be thrown into the fire...
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captain_proton_au
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HistoryDude
Oct 6 2005, 01:50 PM
But Christianity still has more adherents than any religion or life-philosophy around the world.

Still, the majority of the worlds population is not Christian


Quote:
 
Quote:
 
What is your interpretation of what happens to Buddhists, Hindus, Athiests , basically everyone that doesnt believe in the God of Abraham, when they die?


Well, this is what will get me in trouble, again, I'm sure. I am not judging anyone or putting anyone else's religion down or attacking anyone, nor do I think I'm better than them. This is what God has said and I just know in my heart to be true. If Jesus has been revealed to a some one in an earnest, honest, and loving way, and has been taught His commandments, yet that person still does not accept His sacrifice, nor repent of his/her sins (and Christians believe we are all born with sin), then that person is lost. That is the fundamental truth that binds, or should bind, all Christian denominations and churches. For those who have never been shown Jesus, it is another matter and cannot be condemned.

And to add some mud to the issue, even for Christians who profess to live a Christ-like lifestyle (and even do), they need to be careful, still. For James tells us that faith without works is dead, and Jesus tells us that those branches that do not produce fruit will be thrown into the fire...



WOW!

your right, that will get you in trouble again
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HistoryDude
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captain_proton_au
Oct 6 2005, 02:59 PM
HistoryDude
Oct 6 2005, 01:50 PM
But Christianity still has more adherents than any religion or life-philosophy around the world.

Still, the majority of the worlds population is not Christian

Still, it is growing. And all in God's timing.

Plus He never said that everyone would accept Him...
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captain_proton_au
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I would actually disagree it is growing.

Given that India and Most of Asia's (except China) population is growing and the Wests is not.

And that the % of agnostics in the West is growing
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captain_proton_au
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So to clarify HistoryDude, do you believe that Buddhist, Hindus, Athiests and Christians of "faith without works" are headed for eternal damnation?
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HistoryDude
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Are you just trying to set me up? :ermm: You asked for mine and others' thoughts on this and I think I have respectfully responded in good will. As for those who know Jesus but do not accept Him, that is what the Bible says. And I believe in the Bible. I did not come up with this on my own. For those Christians "without works," I cannot make a definitive statement. I only say that because the Bible admonishes Christians to constantly analyze their Christian walk, and I include me in that statement, because none of us are perfect. We will each need to give an accounting before God on that day and He, of course, is the final Judge. And part of what James, Jesus, and others in the Bible say along those lines is that a true Christian will do the works automatically out of love for Jesus and their fellow brothers and sisters.

And the more I think on it, I guess I'm surprised by your "Wow," comment in response. I guess I'm assuming that you know at least the basics of Christianity? But that is dangerous to do and, again as a historian, I know better. But it is, after all, named after Christ, which means its adherents believe in and accept Jesus, who is the way and the truth and the life and no one will go to the Father except through Him. I believe that with all my body, heart, and soul. But I will not persecute in any fashion those who don't believe as I do, but will try to spread the Truth and live His example by love and try to impact those in postive ways that He has put in my path, whoever and where ever that may be. Even if many times its just planting the seed.
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captain_proton_au
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HistoryDude
Oct 6 2005, 02:52 PM
Are you just trying to set me up? :ermm: You asked for mine and others' thoughts on this and I think I have respectfully responded in good will.

Sort of, wanted to see what your position was, but i wasnt going to attack you for it. Everyone has a right to their belief system.


But I will say this, you and I are probably on different ends of the spectrum.
IMO any talk of eternal damnation, God punishing us or judging us seems to be against the core values religion tries to teach us.

Maybe a time put in the victims shoes to see how it feels, but even the vilest and most cold blooded murderers in this life dont deserve an eternal existance of pain and suffering in the next, not to mention theres usually psychiatric issues with such people
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HistoryDude
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captain_proton_au
Oct 6 2005, 03:08 PM
I would actually disagree it is growing.

Given that India and Most of Asia's (except China) population is growing and the Wests is not.

Except Christianity is growing fastest in countries in Asia and Africa that are growing the most in population. Okay, so I don't know the all the proportions, but...

And again, I'm not saying right now its an unstoppable wildfire...

This from an article at beliefnet.com:

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In Africa and Asia, the growth of Christianity has been spectacular. In 1900, there were 8.7 million Christians in Africa. Today, there are an estimated 335 million, nearly 50% of the continent's population. The story is similar in Asia, where the number of Christians has risen from 20 million a century ago to about 307 million.


Quote:
 
IMO any talk of eternal damnation, God punishing us or judging us seems to be against the core values religion tries to teach us.


Hmmm...interesting. But perhaps for another thread...? :D
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captain_proton_au
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HistoryDude
Oct 6 2005, 03:20 PM

Quote:
 
In Africa and Asia, the growth of Christianity has been spectacular. In 1900, there were 8.7 million Christians in Africa. Today, there are an estimated 335 million, nearly 50% of the continent's population. The story is similar in Asia, where the number of Christians has risen from 20 million a century ago to about 307 million.


Even neglecting the fact that the source is biased and those figures most likely inflated.

In line with population growths.

Depending on their definition of Asia, 307 million is less than 12% of the population
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
HistoryDude
Oct 6 2005, 02:07 PM
Dandandat
Oct 6 2005, 12:33 PM
So for my question let’s imagine that the rule of law where to some how disappear. What behavior will only theistic people posses that atheist people will not/ can not? How do you prove that Atheist = Hedonist.

Hedonist = A person devoted to pleasure and luxury. That doesn’t describe me what so ever – how do I fit into that idea?

Well, unless we lump all Atheists together, again, then that can't be answered. Because if there are no rules and absolutes to go by, its all relative to each individual. I can go ahead and list Christian morals, and then an Atheist can come by and say, "Oh, I follow that one there. Oh, and that one there, too." Another could say, "Whatever, dude."





That is all very true, an Atheist can come by and say, "Oh, I follow that one there. Oh, and that one there, too." Another could say, "Whatever, dude.". But it has been my experience that theistic people do that as well. Some pick an chose which morals form their respective teachings they want to follow and ignore the rest. Some times this is done through ignorance and we can say “they aren’t being a good such and such” but some times it is done honestly, they don’t agree with such and such rule yet they agree with most of the rules and still honestly call them selves by this religion. Again, theist people do not hold the corner on certainty their group waves in the wind just as much as any other group, some are extremely devout, some don’t care and the majority fall some where in the middle.


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If you are not a hedonist, then great.  So we'll just say some Atheists are not, some are, some are in between.  Some Atheists will have Christian-like morals, some will have what they call other morals based on their own personal opinions or other beliefs, and some may have no morals at all.  And even those with morals may not help their fellow man, but just live their own life.  To my mind, this is an uncertain mess and a scary situation.  Where are the rules?  They are as the individual makes them up and are different for each person.  And I think that is dangerous. 


Where are the certain rules when it comes to theism? They seem, just by reading this thread, to be all over the place. Some who have posted here believe the Christian bible is with out fault, others here think it does have human error in it. Some here believe in the traditional view of Satan, others here do not. I can go on and on and on. Where is the certainty you speak of? It would seem that even in theism beliefs and “truths” only go so far as the individual.

As for making the rules up, if I am right and god does not exist, then the rules your particular sect follows are nothing more then laws in and of them selves. Some one made them up, just as an atheist makes up his own morals. Now ideally in both cases they came about after much contemplation and experience, so it’s not a matter of danger they should be tried and true. Now what I just said predicates once again on the idea of “belief or disbelief”, it all falls into place for me if god does not exist, and fall apart if he does. But until that is unequivocally answered, in the here and now we are all just going through life with a set of morals we “think” are right. We could be wrong or we could be right but that does not change what you or I are going to do tomorrow when we see an old lady who needs help crossing the street.

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You say you help others because,

Dandandat
 
It matters because helping others makes one feel good, it matters because we love others and want to see them prosper, I do all that I can so that my children have a better life then I do, even if that means I have to sacrifice.


Without hope for anything beyond we turn to dust and especially without the rule of law and government (if you want to pretend its somehow disappeared), then I doubt the majority of individuals will adhere to that idea. Why should they? There are no consequences for immoral behavior from either God or law. Now I cannot prove that society would then degrade to hedonism and lawlessness anymore than you can prove that some noble human spirit will overcome it...as it is all hypothetical.


You are right about the hypothetical point. But what I can argue is the idea you have that atheist think "why does it matter" or "why should they" just because we think we turn to dust at the end.

“It matters” and “we should” because time still goes forward, some people in our lives will out live us, society will out live us, and we effect society and the people in our lives even when we are here. It all doesn’t end when we die, we just end when we die. Our kids/grand kids/great grand kids/ect will still be alive when we turn to dust; it matters for them (all of them). Living an immoral life “may” (and I stress may) lead to short term luxury, but history has shown that it is not sustainable, an immoral life does not bring long term happiness for one’s self, one’s family, or one’s society, in fact it brings the opposite. This is what makes it “matter” for many unbelievers. They don’t need a god to tell them to live a moral life, because they know what the benefits are for living a moral life.

Let me ask you this, do you live a moral life just because god tells you to? Would your god even want that, blind following? Or do you live a moral life because you know, feel and see that it is the right thing to do? Do you follow your god’s rules just because he told you to follow them or because he has some how given you the wisdom to see that his rules are good and then gave you the choice to follow them or not? If you say the latter, then how does that differ from an atheist seeing a moral life as good and choosing to follow it (for what ever reason)? If you chose the former, why did god give you free will at all? If he just wanted people to follow him blindly why didn’t he just make humans that way?

Or another way to think of it is, do you live a moral life just to make god happy with you? Just to make sure you get into haven? If true wouldn’t that be selfishness, a form of hedonism in and of its self? If not and you live a moral life for more and other reasons, what are they? And can’t an atheistic person share in most of them, besides the one “for god”?


Quote:
 
Sure, there are all kinds of Christian morals/rules/lifestyles that an Atheist could posses one or more of.  Basic things like treating others with respect, serving others with love, don't steal, don't murder, encourage one another, observe the sanctity of marriage, avoid the dragon of materialism.  But by and large, most Atheists I knew, know now, and have read about and seen in general American society follow only some of these. 
And again I can give you many examples of Christian people who only follow “some” of those morals/rules/lifestyles as well. You’ll say that those Christians who only follow “some” of those morals/rules/lifestyles aren’t being good Christians, well then equally I say those atheist who aren’t following those morals/rules/lifestyles aren’t being good people, and that it has nothing to do with being an atheist or not.

Quote:
 
And then there is a big one that by default a non-Christian could not have and that is have no other idols (spiritual, secular, physical, yourself, or life-style base) before God. 
That again comes down to the simple debate of "belief or disbelief". Of course a none believer is not going to be put god before everything else. But that hardly changes how a nonbeliever acts in society or toward his fellow man. Not to mention that many believe seem to have a problem with this moral.

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And take away the rule of law and then even the no-brainers like "Thou shall not steal" and "Thou shall not murder" become even fair game.  Why should anyone care because at that point it becomes survival of the strongest...or most ruthless.  Let alone, what about the "Thou shall not commit adultery" and other ones that more and more people in our growing secular society our already beginning to see no problem with...


That is absolutely false, are you sitting here telling me the only thing keeping you from killing the person standing closest to you right now is god’s word or the law? That if god came out of the sky and said “HistoryDude I don’t care if you kill some one or not, the choice is yours” and again if the law for some reason didn’t exist – you would just go out on a killing spree because “hey its fun”. Of course you wouldn’t. Just because an atheist doesn’t have god in their life doesn’t mean they are predisposed to go out and kill people. Same thing goes for stealing. Unless you think humans in our society are by and large some unintelligent and uncultured animal that are only stopped from killing some one because it says not to in some book, you can not possible believe that murder is fair game for an atheist once the law goes out the window. Again you really need to get past this idea that atheists “don’t care” we are capable of caring just as much as you do.

Oh and as for "Thou shall not commit adultery" – that ones was begging broken long before our growing secular society. And its not just atheists who are committing adultery, there’ant even enough of us in this country to make up the amount of people who are committing adultery, so some of you theist people must be doing it to.
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