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The Atheists Mantra; Why is the thought of no afterlife scary
Topic Started: Sep 28 2005, 10:24 AM (1,294 Views)
Dandandat
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Time to put something here
HistoryDude great posts, much of what you have said is a perfect example ignorance and resentment of a group other then your own. One day perhaps you will live up to the tenants of your religion and look upon others a with less judgmental attitude.


Quote:
 
But where is the joy in serving others when none of it matters? So why not just live your own life and who cares about others? I can't comprehend why an Atheist would?
The joy comes from serving others in and of its self. As an atheist I can assure you that most of us do not go around thinking that nothing matters, we just don’t need god or a heavenly after life to make it matter. It matters because helping others makes one feel good, it matters because we love others and want to see them prosper, I do all that I can so that my children have a better life then I do, even if that means I have to sacrifice. It matters because what is good for the whole winds up being good for the individual. It matters because one wants to see man achieve the highest heights they can and they want to be part of the processes. Selfishness and “me me me” are not a part of the atheists life stile any more then it is part of the theistic life style. There are selfish people in this world and there are not, no group holds them in greater numbers.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
I still agree with much of what HistoryDude wrote. However, that does not stop me from acknowledging an excellent post from the other side of the argument. Very nice post, Scotty. :)
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HistoryDude
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Shaken, not stirred...
captain_proton_au
Oct 5 2005, 01:19 PM
Plenty of examples throughout history where religion was used as a form of control to corrupt.

Yes...and even to kills thousands of innocent people. And that is all part of the indelible human record from which I, and countless others, have drawn upon to find truth and meaning. However, there is a distinction to be made with what and how humans have used God for their own purposes and the common sense to recognize such. I’d just like to make a little note right now that I have not gone out and tried to brainwash others to be Christian so that they will send me tithes and I have not gone out and slain any infidels in the name of God, nor do I condone either of those actions or others like them. Those just don't make sense. Other parts of that historical record do, and can be used to illustrate why God chose areas of the world to reveal himself, why certain people, and even to prove facts in the Bible.

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Selective belief in the text is interesting, if one believes in part they have to believe in all, including the first couple of chapters of the Old testament and the number of times God gets angry and threatens to wipe out the world, he is not presented well in this section IMO


I do not agree in selective text reading, either. And, of course, God gets angry. You can read well beyond the first couple of chapters of the Old Testament to see even more proof of that! He hates sin so much because it totally separates us from Him, which is the whole reason He created us. And if God is not a just God, then He cannot be God at all. His judgment is not out of revenge, but for justice...to make things right. And it is based on His absolutes and truths and morals with no bias or opinion or the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals’ interpretations. And He is forever unchanging. For those who choose their own way and sin, is death. Sometimes it comes in violent fashion or suffering on earth. Sometimes it comes "in the end" after what to us would seem like a sinful person "got away with it." But there's no doubt in my mind that they meet judgment, even though we cannot see it. It breaks His heart every time a person walks away, just as it does a parent's heart when his/her child knowingly goes down the wrong path. But God will not force you to Him. But He will not and cannot simply let evil stand...especially to corrupt others.

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Why the assumption that God has planned every detail?, to me him just planting the seed and "seeing what happens" is also totally viable


This is actually a fascinating question and one that I've thought on much. Its actually more along the lines of a Deist's interpretation.

To my mind, though, I'm right back at the question, "What's our purpose?" In this philosophy, you have the Creator Being present, but without any vested interest in His creation. Not only that, it limits His power. We're created and then left to our own devices and then we die. Its an Atheist with a Creator, basically...or so it sounds to me.

I don't see why a Creator wouldn't be intimately involved in all His creation, especially humans as a special creation (...even Shakespeare marveled at what an amazing creation mankind was). Because of that, it makes sense that he would take an active role in our lives, both good and bad in terms of happenings to us. He sent His son as salvation and justification so that we could be made right, and new, and whole and have that relationship with Him that He so desires. He has given His Holy Spirit to dwell in us, if we let Him, to give us wisdom and strength and courage to know and do what is right. I can't fathom a God that sits back and does not dwell intimately with us and the rest of His creation.
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captain_proton_au
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A Robot in Disguise

Dandandat
Oct 5 2005, 01:56 PM
There are selfish people in this world and there are not, no group holds them in greater numbers.

Very well said!
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HistoryDude
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Shaken, not stirred...
Dandandat
Oct 5 2005, 02:56 PM
HistoryDude great posts, much of what you have said is a perfect example ignorance and resentment of a group other then your own. One day perhaps you will live up to the tenants of your religion and look upon others a with less judgmental attitude.

Please. And those who don't believe in God are always the first to pull the "ignorance" remarks on those who do. I did that, too, once.

I do not resent Atheists. But, I do not agree with their philosophy. I am not judging them or putting them down. But I am telling you what I have seen from reading their stuff and agreeing with them once upon a time. These are not ignorant remarks, but my thoughts on what I have experienced and come to believe.

If it comes off as an attack against you or anyone, that was not the intention. I thought this was a discussion about the "Atheist's Mantra," so I offered my thoughts...?

Quote:
 
The joy comes from serving others in and of its self. As an atheist I can assure you that most of us do not go around thinking that nothing matters, we just don’t need god or a heavenly after life to make it matter. It matters because helping others makes one feel good, it matters because we love others and want to see them prosper, I do all that I can so that my children have a better life then I do, even if that means I have to sacrifice. It matters because what is good for the whole winds up being good for the individual. It matters because one wants to see man achieve the highest heights they can and they want to be part of the processes.


I'm glad you think that way, but without any moral truths but only relativism, others will do what they think is best or want to, and I don't agree with the precedent that can and has set. To me, there's got to be something more solid.

Quote:
 
Selfishness and “me me me” are not a part of the atheists life stile any more then it is part of the theistic life style. There are selfish people in this world and there are not, no group holds them in greater numbers.


In practice, you bet. But then those Christians following their own selfish desires need to take a hard look at what they say they believe. They certainly wouldn't be walking a very Christ-like life, at least...
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psyfi
psyfi
Dandandat
Oct 5 2005, 01:56 PM
HistoryDude great posts, much of what you have said is a perfect example ignorance and resentment of a group other then your own. One day perhaps you will live up to the tenants of your religion and look upon others a with less judgmental attitude.


Quote:
 
But where is the joy in serving others when none of it matters? So why not just live your own life and who cares about others? I can't comprehend why an Atheist would?
The joy comes from serving others in and of its self. As an atheist I can assure you that most of us do not go around thinking that nothing matters, we just don’t need god or a heavenly after life to make it matter. It matters because helping others makes one feel good, it matters because we love others and want to see them prosper, I do all that I can so that my children have a better life then I do, even if that means I have to sacrifice. It matters because what is good for the whole winds up being good for the individual. It matters because one wants to see man achieve the highest heights they can and they want to be part of the processes. Selfishness and “me me me” are not a part of the atheists life stile any more then it is part of the theistic life style. There are selfish people in this world and there are not, no group holds them in greater numbers.

Dan, I think you have hit on the heart of the matter. This thread began with postulations about the psychological and emotional state of others that might them have a given response to the afterlife. History Dude, going with the flow, has postulated psychological and emotional characteristics of atheists. But who can really say what a person's motives, responses, perspectives are without intensive psychological assessment and interview? In fact, as soon as we start talking about people in broad categories based on their belief systems (is a god; isn't a god), we are probably going astray. Better to just stick with our ideas as to why there is or is not a God than waste our time psychoanalyzing one another.
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
captain_proton_au
Oct 5 2005, 11:31 AM
Why exactly would a Creator be better than me?

Do all of your thoughts and actions come from love?
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
HistoryDude
Oct 5 2005, 03:42 PM
Dandandat
Oct 5 2005, 02:56 PM
HistoryDude great posts, much of what you have said is a perfect example ignorance and resentment of a group other then your own. One day perhaps you will live up to the tenants of your religion and look upon others a with less judgmental attitude.

Please. And those who don't believe in God are always the first to pull the "ignorance" remarks on those who do. I did that, too, once.

I have had many similar conversations with Fes, Who, the Doc and others on many many occasions. All of which have been meaningful and stimulating, not once did I ever say or think any of them where ignorant. So please spare me the idea that I am trying to put you down because of your religion. It is your point of view of other groups that I find ignorant not your beliefs. But please sit on your high horse and judge every one unlike your self, but be careful if there is a god, I doubt that he would appreciate you doing his job.


Quote:
 
I do not resent Atheists.  But, I do not agree with their philosophy.  I am not judging them or putting them down.  But I am telling you what I have seen from reading their stuff and agreeing with them once upon a time.  These are not ignorant remarks, but my thoughts on what I have experienced and come to believe.

If it comes off as an attack against you or anyone, that was not the intention. I thought this was a discussion about the "Atheist's Mantra," so I offered my thoughts...?


Not agreeing with a philosophy and taking an opportunity to misrepresent and put down that philosophy based on the misrepresentation are completely two different things.

You say it was not your intention to attack or judge, yet that is exactly what you have done. Through out your post you have called atheistic people Amoral, Hopeless, Selfish, disgruntled, liars, and a few other things, yet you say you are not attacking or judging.

I doubt that you or any other theistic person here would appreciate it if I where to write a post describing them using agentives and concepts such as: Preachy, self segregated, judgmental, backward, old fashion, close minded, uppity, and sheepish. I could sight many instances, people, books, and other works that would back up each of these agentives and concepts. But that would be completely wrong of me because while these elements exist is some part in the theistic society I know for the most part most theistic people do not exhibit these traits and they are more of a stereo type of that group than anything else.


Quote:
 
Quote:
 
The joy comes from serving others in and of its self. As an atheist I can assure you that most of us do not go around thinking that nothing matters, we just don’t need god or a heavenly after life to make it matter. It matters because helping others makes one feel good, it matters because we love others and want to see them prosper, I do all that I can so that my children have a better life then I do, even if that means I have to sacrifice. It matters because what is good for the whole winds up being good for the individual. It matters because one wants to see man achieve the highest heights they can and they want to be part of the processes.


I'm glad you think that way, but without any moral truths but only relativism, others will do what they think is best or want to, and I don't agree with the precedent that can and has set. To me, there's got to be something more solid.


I am sure I can find a black person that sits on his stoop all day getting drunk. That does not mean I should believe all black people act in that way.

If for you there has to be something more solid, then search for if it, for your self. Do not assume every one else must be like you.

Religious moral truths can be just as relative as anything else. A simple look at history and the many changes many religions have gone through it is easy to see. I doubt the moral truths practiced by the puritans of early American history are the ones you agree with two day. Nether, in and of them selves, are better or worse then the other, but they are relative and they are different.

Let’s take this out of the realm of brevity. Sight for me some “important” moral truths that you as a believe hold that I as an atheist do not and can never hold with out god in my life.



Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Selfishness and “me me me” are not a part of the atheists life stile any more then it is part of the theistic life style. There are selfish people in this world and there are not, no group holds them in greater numbers.


In practice, you bet. But then those Christians following their own selfish desires need to take a hard look at what they say they believe. They certainly wouldn't be walking a very Christ-like life, at least...


So let me get this strait, you can cast of those Christians that exhibit bad behaviors from your group with one simple sentence, but we atheists must accept with out question those atheists that exhibit bad behaviors. What a comfortable position you stand in.
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
HistoryDude
Oct 5 2005, 02:15 PM
And, of course, God gets angry. You can read well beyond the first couple of chapters of the Old Testament to see even more proof of that!

Based on our experience our beliefs will differ. I do not believe God gets angry. I think there are human errors in the Bible.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
psyfi
Oct 5 2005, 04:54 PM
Dandandat
Oct 5 2005, 01:56 PM
HistoryDude great posts, much of what you have said is a perfect example ignorance and resentment of a group other then your own. One day perhaps you will live up to the tenants of your religion and look upon others a with less judgmental attitude. 


Quote:
 
But where is the joy in serving others when none of it matters? So why not just live your own life and who cares about others? I can't comprehend why an Atheist would?
The joy comes from serving others in and of its self. As an atheist I can assure you that most of us do not go around thinking that nothing matters, we just don’t need god or a heavenly after life to make it matter. It matters because helping others makes one feel good, it matters because we love others and want to see them prosper, I do all that I can so that my children have a better life then I do, even if that means I have to sacrifice. It matters because what is good for the whole winds up being good for the individual. It matters because one wants to see man achieve the highest heights they can and they want to be part of the processes. Selfishness and “me me me” are not a part of the atheists life stile any more then it is part of the theistic life style. There are selfish people in this world and there are not, no group holds them in greater numbers.

Dan, I think you have hit on the heart of the matter. This thread began with postulations about the psychological and emotional state of others that might them have a given response to the afterlife. History Dude, going with the flow, has postulated psychological and emotional characteristics of atheists. But who can really say what a person's motives, responses, perspectives are without intensive psychological assessment and interview? In fact, as soon as we start talking about people in broad categories based on their belief systems (is a god; isn't a god), we are probably going astray. Better to just stick with our ideas as to why there is or is not a God than waste our time psychoanalyzing one another.

I agree, I tried to say that in my last post, but you said it much more elegantly.
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Sgt. Jaggs
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How about a Voyager Movie
Dandandat
Oct 4 2005, 10:55 AM
who
Oct 4 2005, 11:48 AM
Dandandat
Oct 4 2005, 10:25 AM
who
Oct 4 2005, 10:44 AM
I do not agree with the above but from a purely scientific view these things are logical.

logically yes, but we would have to also live with the consequences of allowing people to die when we know we can save them. This would (which can be irrespective of god) make us feel bad emotionally. We are not purely logical creatures, so the “logically” right thing to do for society is not always the right thing to do in the end. What is good for society is not always measured by the resources we have, it can be measured with emotions as well.


From a psychological stand point what is the better reinforcement factor? Negative reinforcement, or positive reinforcement? Punishment form god for not doing the right thing, or the good feelings one gets when they believe they are doing the good things?

I think it is seen through human history that people can be conditioned to think almost anything is good. A recent example would be Nazi Germany.

And human history has also shown that people can be conditioned to think almost anything is godly. How is this any argument?



Quote:
 
I do not believe God punnishes anyone for anything. Everything of God comes from love. The bad stuff we do to ourselves.
With respect, I see this as the ultimate Pass for god, everything good comes form him(her, it) everything bad comes form our selves. What a great place for god to be sitting, all of the warship none of the blame. This is one of the reasons I am an atheist, I just can’t live in a world like that, ether god is the creator of everything and to be blamed for the bad things as well as honored for the good or he is not. I think it’s completely unfair to put him(her, it) in the middle.

So if God gets the credit and the blame what about Satan? Or have you forgotten about him...
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captain_proton_au
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A Robot in Disguise

who
Oct 5 2005, 04:24 PM
captain_proton_au
Oct 5 2005, 11:31 AM
Why exactly would a Creator be better than me?

Do all of your thoughts and actions come from love?

No, Hormones
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Jag
Oct 5 2005, 08:30 PM
Dandandat
Oct 4 2005, 10:55 AM
who
Oct 4 2005, 11:48 AM
Dandandat
Oct 4 2005, 10:25 AM
who
Oct 4 2005, 10:44 AM
I do not agree with the above but from a purely scientific view these things are logical.

logically yes, but we would have to also live with the consequences of allowing people to die when we know we can save them. This would (which can be irrespective of god) make us feel bad emotionally. We are not purely logical creatures, so the “logically” right thing to do for society is not always the right thing to do in the end. What is good for society is not always measured by the resources we have, it can be measured with emotions as well.


From a psychological stand point what is the better reinforcement factor? Negative reinforcement, or positive reinforcement? Punishment form god for not doing the right thing, or the good feelings one gets when they believe they are doing the good things?

I think it is seen through human history that people can be conditioned to think almost anything is good. A recent example would be Nazi Germany.

And human history has also shown that people can be conditioned to think almost anything is godly. How is this any argument?



Quote:
 
I do not believe God punnishes anyone for anything. Everything of God comes from love. The bad stuff we do to ourselves.
With respect, I see this as the ultimate Pass for god, everything good comes form him(her, it) everything bad comes form our selves. What a great place for god to be sitting, all of the warship none of the blame. This is one of the reasons I am an atheist, I just can’t live in a world like that, ether god is the creator of everything and to be blamed for the bad things as well as honored for the good or he is not. I think it’s completely unfair to put him(her, it) in the middle.

So if God gets the credit and the blame what about Satan? Or have you forgotten about him...

Thats a good point, I didnt not forget Satan, it was not brought up. Does Satan have a power over God, or does God have a power over Satan, or is their power equal?
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Fesarius
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Admiral
I think there was a Satan thread a long, long time ago ... in a galaxy far, far away....
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
I do not believe in the usual view of satan either.
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