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The Atheists Mantra; Why is the thought of no afterlife scary
Topic Started: Sep 28 2005, 10:24 AM (1,295 Views)
HistoryDude
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Shaken, not stirred...
Dandandat
Oct 4 2005, 03:05 PM
Well when god wakes me from this nightmare and takes me into his loving arms - I will be inclined to believe in him. Until then the nightmare he has not awaken me from is immensely more important because I must deal with it, in the here and now. Since he is not doing anything about it, him sitting over my bed is unimportant to the point that he might as well not even be there.

The fallacy with this argument, to my mind and again from a Christian perspective, is that God is not just a personal pick-me-up waiting over your bed whenever you want Him to help you or console you or heal you or comfort you. Bad things happen to Christians, too. He never promised anywhere that we would live a life of only miracles and mountain-top experiences. And He is not there just to pick us up when we want. A fulfilling relationship with God requires us to do our part, repent of our sinful ways, fight our sinful nature, accept the grace and mercy given to us only of God’s love through His sacrifice of Jesus and not in anyway because we deserve it, and live a life of holiness and Christ-likeness. And the hope and victory is in knowing at he will ultimately redeem us…even through suffering…if not in this life, in the next.
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HistoryDude
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Twilight
Oct 5 2005, 04:07 AM
Look at the past. After every peak of civilization, a collapse. then ages of stagnation.

What has this got to do with Religion?

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Religion serves a purpose. That purpose is to instill in people that there is a reason we are here, and that Humans are special. Religion has adopted the scientific facts when leaders felt the majority have stabilized and are able to live with small steps towards the facts. Cautiously Religions have let in the light.


Nobody instilled in me anything. No government thrust it upon me to keep me from rioting. No society forced me to accept Jesus to keep me in-line, or whatever else you want to use. It was the awesome power of the Holy Spirit that led me to Jesus.

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The only way humans will have society is if they believe there is a purpose to their existance. The cold hard facts are Life is everywhere and Humans are not special. They are not alone, either. But, the divide is great because of Humans frailty. Or, more precisely, Humans perceive themselves as frail.


The fact is we are special. Look around at the rest of creation. Do you notice anything different bout us and the other forms of life?

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We have conditioned the Humans to think of themselves as special, frail and rare.
Although all untrue, that is what we want them to believe, so they go on.


Who’s “we?” Frail? I don’t get it. Rare? Of course…since throughout history we’re the only thing like us “we’ve” seen thus far, what do you expect?

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If every Human understood, we are not rare, that we are not special, and that there is no purpose for us being born, then...what would follow is the collapse of a society.


Ah, but there is a purpose. Even if its just the silly “we must procreate so the species can survive.”

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So as the facts of science become undeniable, religion adopts them. In increments.


You’re assuming Science and Religion are in a battle. That’s another problem many people have that prohibit them from fully knowing God as best they can. They assume a a Scientific fact disproves God; another domino falling, if you will. It only illuminates another wonderful piece of God’s creation. The reasons that sound religious leaders and organizations “adopt” these facts is because they make sense. Christianity, as a human-organized religion, may have been founded 2,000 years ago…but it is not stuck there!

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Eventually, as every society before us. The general education of the majority will reach a level of understanding of the Human condition and its plight. And either that civilization will destroy itself, or it will, not. If it does there will be a period of stagnation. Then, as before, someone will convince another that there is something worth living for. Something outside themselves. And that all their good deeds will be rewarded.


This is an extreme oversimplification of history and I assert totally unfounded. Society’s have not fallen because of a lack of something to live for…? The cause and effects of the delinces of peoples, empires, societies, countries, and civilizations is far more complex than that.
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
Franko
Oct 5 2005, 02:41 AM
psyfi
Oct 4 2005, 09:49 PM
That's ONLY because scientists have yet to rule the world. I am 100 percent convinced if tomorrow we put the scientists in charge it would take less than 50 years to find ourselves forced into a reality not unlike that presented in the movie "Gattaca."


Nor would I. I'd never want to see any group, religious or otherwise, put into a position of absolute power who have a distinct "agenda".

Since we are just going into different tangents I will drop the discussion.

We already have one group that rules the US. They are called lawyers.
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who
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Franko
Oct 5 2005, 02:41 AM
I'm curious to know just what in fact forms the basis of this hostility towards "science", a theme that Who keeps bringing up as well.

I do not have a hostility towards science. I just do not think it should be worshipped like a religion. Use it when it is useful. I also think that one should realize its limited scope. It disregards everything subjective like awareness, thoughts and feelings which is the nature of our experience. My training in science is fairly extensive.
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Fesarius
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... and Humans are not special.

I could not disagree more with this statement. Of course, I cannot prove it. But we are set apart by God, for a purpose, and we are intentionally very different from every other species. All IMO, of course.
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who
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Twilight
Oct 5 2005, 03:07 AM
I wouldn't call it hatred towards science. I would label it a fear.

If you are refering to me, I have no fear of science.

As for the rest, it is all part of the illusion.
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captain_proton_au
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HistoryDude
Oct 5 2005, 10:23 AM
captain_proton_au
Sep 29 2005, 09:25 PM
HistoryDude
Sep 29 2005, 01:16 PM

And, maybe this is off-topic, but for those who think we just *poof* non-exist at death, I have to ask, where is your hope in that? :shrug:

Hope for what?

Exactly. Atheists have none to offer. No hope for any truth. No hope for any absolute. No hope that things will get better when you’re in those valleys, or that something is still in control during difficult times. No hope that a greater purpose is at work. No hope that anything awaits beyond this life other than you turn to dust and that’s it. So the response is “live life to the fullest and have fun while you can because nothing really matters.


So you think Athiest = Anarchists, running around like nothing matters?

I think you know thats far from true


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They are disgruntled that this Being is “better than them,” a position naturally by default as Creator of all creation.


Why exactly would a Creator be better than me?

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I will use Christianity as the basis of my thoughts here, because, after serious searching of my own, I find it to be the one true lifestyle based on experience, history, logic, and plain common sense.


I wouldnt use history as an example there. And I dont think you can equate logic with the old testament in particular

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And how anyone can look around at the complexity and vastness of creation in all its perfect balance and intricate detail and interconnectedness and not believe in God is beyond me and perhaps as difficult for me to understand (now) as it is for an Atheist to understand why I do.


Perfect Balance???

None of us can grasp the size and true nature of the universe, so some of us make up stories to fill in the gaps, we are not comfortable with things we dont understand
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
HistoryDude
Oct 5 2005, 10:23 AM
captain_proton_au
Sep 29 2005, 09:25 PM
HistoryDude
Sep 29 2005, 01:16 PM

And, maybe this is off-topic, but for those who think we just *poof* non-exist at death, I have to ask, where is your hope in that? :shrug:

Hope for what?

Exactly. Atheists have none to offer. No hope for any truth. No hope for any absolute. No hope that things will get better when you’re in those valleys, or that something is still in control during difficult times. No hope that a greater purpose is at work. No hope that anything awaits beyond this life other than you turn to dust and that’s it. So the response is “live life to the fullest and have fun while you can because nothing really matters.” No absolutes, no moral grounding, no truths…all relativism and me, me, me. Gives me horrible flashbacks of the 80’s!

What I see from Atheists is that they are uncomfortable with the “rules” of a lifestyle predicated upon the existence of a Supreme Being. They are disgruntled that this Being is “better than them,” a position naturally by default as Creator of all creation. They are disillusioned by hypocrites who claim to follow such a Being, yet seem to live a lifestyle incompatible with its doctrine. And most of all, they resent having to give up of themselves when they’d rather follow their own selfish desires and carnal nature. And so they use the easy justification, “You can’t see God,” to prove in their own minds that He doesn’t exist and that way they can do what they want.

I will use Christianity as the basis of my thoughts here, because, after serious searching of my own, I find it to be the one true lifestyle based on experience, history, logic, and plain common sense. I’ve gone the Atheist route. I’ve called myself Agnostic. I’ve dwelled into Eastern philosophy. I’ve searched for all the answers in a secular world and tried to base it upon Science. I used all those justifications and arguments. I've been there. I followed my selfish nature and did what I pleased. I had fun at the time, but in my gut I always knew that it was all fleeting and meant nothing. Worthless. Pointless. Who cares? There had to be more.

Every person in the back of their minds wonders about such things. What is there to life? What is beyond this? There are those who say they don’t ponder such things; but I will respectfully smile and say, “Ok, sure.” There are some that say they have, but reached the conclusion there is no God because they can’t see Him; but that concept still sits there in their mind, because although they use that argument, they still can't prove it. Its only human to do so. And that curiosity is also God-given. I’ve no doubt, now, in my mind that it is the Holy Spirit pricking our hearts to seek God out. He desires that relationship with us, but will not force us to come to Him. He wants loving and willful relationships, not automatons that simply do his bidding by force. His Spirit was that “gut feeling” that forced me to keep searching for those answers. For Him. To change my life. And I give Him all the praise for it.

And how anyone can look around at the complexity and vastness of creation in all its perfect balance and intricate detail and interconnectedness and not believe in God is beyond me and perhaps as difficult for me to understand (now) as it is for an Atheist to understand why I do.

HistoryDude, excellent post! I would just add that “You can’t see God” should be, for the atheist, "I have not seen God".
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Fesarius
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... we are not comfortable with things we dont understand.

I am very comfortable with that which I do not understand. Is your assertion akin to a fear of the unknown, or is it something else?
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
Fesarius
Oct 5 2005, 10:40 AM
But I have a vested interest in the topic, insofar as nothing is more important in life to me than God.


Fes, I feel the same way.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
It's actually pleasing to read that, since all scientists are atheists.
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who
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Fesarius
Oct 5 2005, 11:28 AM
Of course, I cannot prove it.

God is not about proof. I think there was a great scene in CONTACT. Ellie (?) said on the balcony at the party to the new age "priest" that she could not believe in anything she could not prove. He asked her if she loved her father. She answered, "Yes." He said, "Prove it."
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HistoryDude
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So you think Athiest = Anarchists, running around like nothing matters?


No I do not. I do believe Atheist = Hedonist. Anarchist is a political term and should Atheism become the majority lifestyle in society, I would hope the rule of law would still keep order and government. But I am not talking in political terms.

But where is the joy in serving others when none of it matters? So why not just live your own life and who cares about others? I can't comprehend why an Atheist would?

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Why exactly would a Creator be better than me?


He is the author of all things, omnipotent, all-knowing. He knows everything about you before you do, has set your steps before you. He knows your desires before you ask them. He has the power to work miracles. And most importantly He has the ultimate power to judge you…condemning or redeeming.

Another problem that prohibits many from accepting Christ…humility, or lack thereof.

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I wouldnt use history as an example there. And I dont think you can equate logic with the old testament in particular


Why wouldn’t you? Why not use the collective human experience as one means to help base what you believe? And there is much logic and common sense in the Old Testament . There is also much in the Old Testament that sounds unbelievable. Logic is only one means to base your faith upon. And there is also more to Christianity than the Old Testament.

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Perfect Balance???


Holy cow, dude…there are myriad examples in nature. Just look at the ocean. You know how many species have individual jobs and functions, how each works together in harmony and without one part, other parts suffer because the disruption in the chain of interconnectedness? There are other examples in nature. And look at the complexity of the human body…heck, just the brain…and how perfectly it all works together. That, to me, is not “an accident.”

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None of us can grasp the size and true nature of the universe, so some of us make up stories to fill in the gaps, we are not comfortable with things we dont understand


And some of us search for those questions that burn within our hearts, again by no accident, and find answers from sources that others have no chance of seeing because either there is no faith, no hope, or no desire to search merely beyond what feels good to them.
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Fesarius
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God is not about proof.

Of course not. But I know you're not speaking to me there.

I am reminded of the wonderful story of Newton and his mechanical planet-orbiting contraption. He built the model of the universe as he knew it in such a way that all of the planets could rotate and revolve around the sun. From all accounts, this contraption was so well-designed that several of the leading scientists and philosophers of the day, many of them his friends and all of them atheists, marveled at its construction and eloquence, and even tried it on occasion. The levers could make different planets move in different fashions, all by the crank of the constructed handle mechanism. When they asked Newton how such a marvelous device was created, he responded "It just appeared in my study, out of thin air."
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captain_proton_au
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HistoryDude
Oct 5 2005, 11:58 AM

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I wouldnt use history as an example there. And I dont think you can equate logic with the old testament in particular


Why wouldn’t you? Why not use the collective human experience as one means to help base what you believe?

Plenty of examples throughout history where religion was used as a form of control to corrupt.

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And there is also more to Christianity than the Old Testament.


Selective belief in the text is interesting, if one believes in part they have to believe in all, including the first couple of chapters of the Old testament and the number of times God gets angry and threatens to wipe out the world, he is not presented well in this section IMO

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Perfect Balance???

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Holy cow, dude…there are myriad examples in nature.  Just look at the ocean.  You know how many species have individual jobs and functions, how each works together in harmony and without one part, other parts suffer because the disruption in the chain of interconnectedness?  There are other examples in nature.  And look at the complexity of the human body…heck, just the brain…and how perfectly it all works together.  That, to me, is not “an accident.”


Why the assumption that God has planned every detail?, to me him just planting the seed and "seeing what happens" is also totally viable
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