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The Atheists Mantra; Why is the thought of no afterlife scary
Topic Started: Sep 28 2005, 10:24 AM (1,298 Views)
captain_proton_au
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A Robot in Disguise

who
Oct 3 2005, 08:54 PM
one's goal in life is to pass as many genes into the next generation as possible.

A worthy and noble cause
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
Heh, out of context quote.

Correction:

who
Oct 3 2005, 08:54 PM
If one's god is science then one's goal in life is to pass as many genes into the next generation as possible.


:loling:
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psyfi
psyfi
captain_proton_au
Oct 3 2005, 08:25 PM
I would also argue that we arent "good", we may be nice and helpful to strangers, treat those around us well, but then save up for our new SUV's and DVD's while millions around the world starve.

Remember that - camel through the eye of a needle has more chance than a rich man getting into heaven phrase in the bible ( and I'm very loosely paraphrasing there ;))

You might find you dont end up getting to go to heaven cos you didnt send off enough money to Oxfam or CCF, or you didnt do enough community service

Jesus wasn't talking about "the rich" having a difficult time being saved. He was talking about those who made money the God in their lives. You could be rather poor and still have money as your God in which case you are looking at the camel/needle scenario.


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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
doctortobe
Oct 3 2005, 09:13 PM
I've probably mentioned this in other threads (in fact I know that I have), but if we are to be obliterated after death, then why are we supposed to be good?  What reason is there to work for nice things when you can just take them?  Should one be good for goodness' sake when there is no real difference between good and evil in the end?

Why shouldn't one be good for goodness' sake? We are pack animals, what is good for the whole usually ends up being good for the individual, what is bad for the whole usually ends up being bad for the individual. What goes around usually comes around, even if its months or even years latter. An investment in morality (not just legal and illegal) is a good long term policy, even if in the short term immorality gets the quick riches.

Also there is one’s own satisfaction to consider, I don’t need to believe in god to know I feel good when I do good. Millions of years of evolution (or maybe because god wanted it) has turned us (for the most part) into creatures that feel good when we hear a laugh or see a smile and ect. In the past it made sure the young took care of the old, the old took care of the young, the strong and healthy took care of the weak and sick, and ect allowing the species to prosper. But it is still alive today, doing good makes you feel good, so one’s normal inclination is to be good for goodness' sake.

Then there is pride in following ones own moral code, but moral codes are subjective so a bad person will take pride in his bad moral code. That does still leave a good person to take pride in his good moral code – which can irrespective of god.

its good to see you back doc.


who
 
I think without God there is no good and evil. There is only legal and illegal.
I would have to disagree; god need not define good vs legal and evil vs illegal. A simple example is helping an elderly person cross the street. An atheist can find the good in that act with out a though of god even though doing so really isn’t a matter of legal or illegal.

You could further argue that because god does exist, that even the atheist recognizes the good in the act even with out consciously thinking of god. But then why argue such an elaborate point when it all boils down to “do you or don’t you believe”
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
Dandandat
Oct 4 2005, 08:40 AM
who
 
I think without God there is no good and evil. There is only legal and illegal.
I would have to disagree; god need not define good vs legal and evil vs illegal. A simple example is helping an elderly person cross the street. An atheist can find the good in that act with out a though of god even though doing so really isn’t a matter of legal or illegal.

You make some good points about how we might be genetically wired to do "good" based on so many years of evolution. It might have been useful when human tribes were small to protect the wisdom of the old (40 years old). It might have been helpful to protect the sick if they just had something they could recover from.

Once God is out of the picture then everything is relative. Someone could argue that today it is harmful for the good of all to keep alive those who can not work due to age or disability. It is harmful to treat people with genetic disease and allow them to pass these genes into the next generation.

If we go into SF there have been a number of movies about managing society based on science. At a certain age people are not allowed to live. Those with the best genes are allowed to prosper.

I do not agree with the above but from a purely scientific view these things are logical.
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psyfi
psyfi
who
Oct 4 2005, 09:44 AM
Once God is out of the picture then everything is relative. Someone could argue that today it is harmful for the good of all to keep alive those who can not work due to age or disability. It is harmful to treat people with genetic disease and allow them to pass these genes into the next generation.

While having nothing absolute to hang one's hat on value-wise is somewhat of a problem regarding atheism, I think the bigger problem is that when you do not believe in God, you do not expect or look for or try to find out how to have miracles.

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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
who
Oct 4 2005, 10:44 AM
I do not agree with the above but from a purely scientific view these things are logical.

logically yes, but we would have to also live with the consequences of allowing people to die when we know we can save them. This would (which can be irrespective of god) make us feel bad emotionally. We are not purely logical creatures, so the “logically” right thing to do for society is not always the right thing to do in the end. What is good for society is not always measured by the resources we have, it can be measured with emotions as well.


From a psychological stand point what is the better reinforcement factor? Negative reinforcement, or positive reinforcement? Punishment form god for not doing the right thing, or the good feelings one gets when they believe they are doing the good things?
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
psyfi
Oct 4 2005, 10:56 AM
While having nothing absolute to hang one's hat on value-wise is somewhat of a problem regarding atheism,



I don't understand this, why is this a problem? Why does your god's "absolute" have to affect an atheist’s sense of "absolute"? Atheists have their "absolutes" that they live by, they may be different form yours and they may come form a different place, but they are there. Maybe I am misunderstanding your point could you elaborate further.


Quote:
 
I think the bigger problem is that when you do not believe in God, you do not expect or look for or try to find out how to have miracles.
Where you see this a a problem, I see it as a liberation. I do not wait or look for miracles to happen, I take it upon my self to do things I want or need to do.
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
Dandandat
Oct 4 2005, 10:25 AM
who
Oct 4 2005, 10:44 AM
I do not agree with the above but from a purely scientific view these things are logical.

logically yes, but we would have to also live with the consequences of allowing people to die when we know we can save them. This would (which can be irrespective of god) make us feel bad emotionally. We are not purely logical creatures, so the “logically” right thing to do for society is not always the right thing to do in the end. What is good for society is not always measured by the resources we have, it can be measured with emotions as well.


From a psychological stand point what is the better reinforcement factor? Negative reinforcement, or positive reinforcement? Punishment form god for not doing the right thing, or the good feelings one gets when they believe they are doing the good things?

I think it is seen through human history that people can be conditioned to think almost anything is good. A recent example would be Nazi Germany.

I do not believe God punnishes anyone for anything. Everything of God comes from love. The bad stuff we do to ourselves.
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
Dandandat
Oct 4 2005, 10:36 AM
I do not wait or look for miracles to happen, I take it upon my self to do things I want or need to do.

I think this is the atheists mantra:

F_c# god, I don't need or want him, I can do everything myself.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
who
Oct 4 2005, 11:48 AM
Dandandat
Oct 4 2005, 10:25 AM
who
Oct 4 2005, 10:44 AM
I do not agree with the above but from a purely scientific view these things are logical.

logically yes, but we would have to also live with the consequences of allowing people to die when we know we can save them. This would (which can be irrespective of god) make us feel bad emotionally. We are not purely logical creatures, so the “logically” right thing to do for society is not always the right thing to do in the end. What is good for society is not always measured by the resources we have, it can be measured with emotions as well.


From a psychological stand point what is the better reinforcement factor? Negative reinforcement, or positive reinforcement? Punishment form god for not doing the right thing, or the good feelings one gets when they believe they are doing the good things?

I think it is seen through human history that people can be conditioned to think almost anything is good. A recent example would be Nazi Germany.

And human history has also shown that people can be conditioned to think almost anything is godly. How is this any argument?



Quote:
 
I do not believe God punnishes anyone for anything. Everything of God comes from love. The bad stuff we do to ourselves.
With respect, I see this as the ultimate Pass for god, everything good comes form him(her, it) everything bad comes form our selves. What a great place for god to be sitting, all of the warship none of the blame. This is one of the reasons I am an atheist, I just can’t live in a world like that, ether god is the creator of everything and to be blamed for the bad things as well as honored for the good or he is not. I think it’s completely unfair to put him(her, it) in the middle.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
who
Oct 4 2005, 11:53 AM
Dandandat
Oct 4 2005, 10:36 AM
I do not wait or look for miracles to happen, I take it upon my self to do things I want or need to do.

I think this is the atheists mantra:

F_c# god, I don't need or want him, I can do everything myself.

For some I am sure that is true, but then they would not truly be atheists, to "F_c# god" one must first believe in god. You can't curse something that you do not think is there.

along those lines a more accurate mantra what be:

"There is no god, so I had better do this or that by my self other wise it wont get done"

There is no arrogance in the above, just individual realization.
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
Dandandat
Oct 4 2005, 10:55 AM
And human history has also shown that people can be conditioned to think almost anything is godly. How is this any argument?

I agree that some things that are not good have and are done in the name of God. One example now is terrorism and much of what they believe.

I think we need to become more in touch with God to guide our actions. Anything that comes from love comes from God.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
I do not believe God punishes anyone for anything. Everything of God comes from love. The bad stuff we do to ourselves.
With respect, I see this as the ultimate Pass for god, everything good comes form him(her, it) everything bad comes form our selves. What a great place for god to be sitting, all of the warship none of the blame. This is one of the reasons I am an atheist, I just can’t live in a world like that, ether god is the creator of everything and to be blamed for the bad things as well as honored for the good or he is not. I think it’s completely unfair to put him(her, it) in the middle.


These are some of my religious beliefs based on reading and direct experience. God is not in the middle but above. God is the creator and created us. Because of free will we can choose against God. We have the power of God and have chosen to create an insane world. It is not a pass for God but recognizing our responsibility.

I respect your position as an atheist as I was there once. It did not last long as it was illogical. There is no proof that God does not exist. Although very spiritual, I remained an agnostic for some time.
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captain_proton_au
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A Robot in Disguise

who
Oct 4 2005, 10:53 AM

F_c# god, I don't need or want him, I can do everything myself.

What does God do for me exactly?


Actually I'm chest high in assignments at the moment, if he (she,it) could help me out with those, that'd be cool ;)
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
captain_proton_au
Oct 4 2005, 11:30 AM
What does God do for me exactly?

Actually I'm chest high in assignments at the moment, if he (she,it) could help me out with those, that'd be cool ;)

CP, these are part of my beliefs. You would not exist without God as God is our Creator.

I suspect your assignments are part of "Rome" and are not all that important to God.
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