|
The Paranormal and Spirituality
|
|
Topic Started: Aug 26 2005, 09:00 AM (476 Views)
|
|
Dandandat
|
Aug 27 2005, 05:59 PM
Post #31
|
Time to put something here
- Posts:
- 17,948
- Group:
- Flag Officer
- Member
- #34
- Joined:
- August 30, 2003
|
- who
- Aug 27 2005, 05:05 PM
Dan, there is the expression (was it Marx?) who said that religion is the opiate of the masses. I believe in God because I think God is real. This may provide some comfort. I believe that the full realization of God will provide peace, joy, and love beyond human comprehension. I am not there now. What I am saying is that I do not believe in God just to provide some psychological comfort but because I believe God is true.
I do not believe that death is a fact.
Perhaps you are reading to much into my original comment to you. I did not mean for my words to mean anything other then wishing you well on your experiences. What ever it is that you gain form them and from your beliefs, as long as it is a positive thing for you I am glad.
- Quote:
-
For those that believe in death and that death is non-existence (I have been there), there is comfort. One does not have to worry about hell or something after death. Only if one anticipates that they would be going to hell. Your words may be true for those who live their life with the lowest moral fiber. But that does not describe most atheist. For example the only think in my life that I can think of that would keep me out of Heaven is my disbelief in it all of my other moral attributes would not doubt be fine to pass most religions tenants. So in that regard not believing is not my way of keeping my mind of the idea that I might be going to hell.
- Quote:
-
Death also appears to bring peace and an end to all one's problems. For those who have big problems, believing in god and haven can bring peace as an end to those problems just as well as none existence. So it is not a diverging point between the two ideas. But truthfully it would be a much better away to end your problems by going to haven then to just cease to exist.
|
|
|
| |
|
psyfi
|
Aug 27 2005, 06:24 PM
Post #32
|
psyfi
- Posts:
- 4,336
- Group:
- Flag Officer
- Member
- #374
- Joined:
- March 8, 2005
|
- 24thcenstfan
- Aug 27 2005, 05:54 PM
- psyfi
- Aug 27 2005, 02:16 AM
- 24thcenstfan
- Aug 26 2005, 09:51 PM
I can't speak for other people, but it would be important for my own spiritual growth to experience something concrete that proves the existence of God.
However, I have never considered myself worthy of being presented with that proof (in whatever form). So I don't ever expect to receive it.
I think that all of us have very few of these experiences precisely because we do not feel worthy. In A Course in Miracles it is noted that the habit of "engaging" with God is easily formed IF we do not allow our focus to slip away from that goal. However, it goes on to say that we tell ourselves that we grow tired, that it is hard to concentrate so steadily, and so forth but that none of these reasons are true. The true reason that we find ourselves unable to main the focus is that we feel we are not worth the effort. I do believe this.
I will have to disagree with that. I don't think feeling unworthy has anything to do with losing focus on God. A person could be very devout and talk to God 24/7 and still feel unworthy of God's grace. Personally, I think the main reason why people have so few experiences is because they are unworthy. I know in my heart that that is why I haven't. I think it is a form of punishment for our past deeds. This doesn't mean that there aren't other reasons why experiences don't occur. Losing focus on God could be one reason.
Well I don't know if you are a Christian but if you are, I take it that you do not feel that through Jesus you have been made worthy?
|
|
|
| |
|
24thcenstfan
|
Aug 27 2005, 06:47 PM
Post #33
|
Something Wicked This Fae Comes
- Posts:
- 21,481
- Group:
- Flag Officer
- Member
- #4
- Joined:
- August 26, 2003
|
- psyfi
- Aug 27 2005, 07:24 PM
- 24thcenstfan
- Aug 27 2005, 05:54 PM
- psyfi
- Aug 27 2005, 02:16 AM
- 24thcenstfan
- Aug 26 2005, 09:51 PM
I can't speak for other people, but it would be important for my own spiritual growth to experience something concrete that proves the existence of God.
However, I have never considered myself worthy of being presented with that proof (in whatever form). So I don't ever expect to receive it.
I think that all of us have very few of these experiences precisely because we do not feel worthy. In A Course in Miracles it is noted that the habit of "engaging" with God is easily formed IF we do not allow our focus to slip away from that goal. However, it goes on to say that we tell ourselves that we grow tired, that it is hard to concentrate so steadily, and so forth but that none of these reasons are true. The true reason that we find ourselves unable to main the focus is that we feel we are not worth the effort. I do believe this.
I will have to disagree with that. I don't think feeling unworthy has anything to do with losing focus on God. A person could be very devout and talk to God 24/7 and still feel unworthy of God's grace. Personally, I think the main reason why people have so few experiences is because they are unworthy. I know in my heart that that is why I haven't. I think it is a form of punishment for our past deeds. This doesn't mean that there aren't other reasons why experiences don't occur. Losing focus on God could be one reason.
Well I don't know if you are a Christian but if you are, I take it that you do not feel that through Jesus you have been made worthy?
I am a Christian, and no I do not. I think he definitely died for my sins. However, I don’t think that abdicates my responsibility for whatever sin I have committed or will commit. The fact that I have committed sins and will probably commit more sins (I am not perfect after all), means I have dishonored Jesus and will unfortunately dishonor his actions again. That has made me unworthy. I certainly don’t think God is going to say, “24, Jesus did this great deed on your behalf, and as a result, I am going to overlook the fact that you did, this, that and the other.” No way do I believe that He will do that. When judgment day comes, I am going to get an ear full. I expect that and I deserve that (if it turns out that I am right).
|
|
|
| |
|
psyfi
|
Aug 27 2005, 07:08 PM
Post #34
|
psyfi
- Posts:
- 4,336
- Group:
- Flag Officer
- Member
- #374
- Joined:
- March 8, 2005
|
- 24thcenstfan
- Aug 27 2005, 06:47 PM
- psyfi
- Aug 27 2005, 07:24 PM
- 24thcenstfan
- Aug 27 2005, 05:54 PM
- psyfi
- Aug 27 2005, 02:16 AM
- 24thcenstfan
- Aug 26 2005, 09:51 PM
I can't speak for other people, but it would be important for my own spiritual growth to experience something concrete that proves the existence of God.
However, I have never considered myself worthy of being presented with that proof (in whatever form). So I don't ever expect to receive it.
I think that all of us have very few of these experiences precisely because we do not feel worthy. In A Course in Miracles it is noted that the habit of "engaging" with God is easily formed IF we do not allow our focus to slip away from that goal. However, it goes on to say that we tell ourselves that we grow tired, that it is hard to concentrate so steadily, and so forth but that none of these reasons are true. The true reason that we find ourselves unable to main the focus is that we feel we are not worth the effort. I do believe this.
I will have to disagree with that. I don't think feeling unworthy has anything to do with losing focus on God. A person could be very devout and talk to God 24/7 and still feel unworthy of God's grace. Personally, I think the main reason why people have so few experiences is because they are unworthy. I know in my heart that that is why I haven't. I think it is a form of punishment for our past deeds. This doesn't mean that there aren't other reasons why experiences don't occur. Losing focus on God could be one reason.
Well I don't know if you are a Christian but if you are, I take it that you do not feel that through Jesus you have been made worthy?
I am a Christian, and no I do not. I think he definitely died for my sins. However, I don’t think that abdicates my responsibility for whatever sin I have committed or will commit. The fact that I have committed sins and will probably commit more sins (I am not perfect after all), means I have dishonored Jesus and will unfortunately dishonor his actions again. That has made me unworthy. I certainly don’t think God is going to say, “24, Jesus did this great deed on your behalf, and as a result, I am going to overlook the fact that you did, this, that and the other.” No way do I believe that He will do that. When judgment day comes, I am going to get an ear full. I expect that and I deserve that (if it turns out that I am right).
I think we shall all hear some stuff come Judgment Day. Nobody is going to be left out. But it is a matter of whether the cross has made us worthy, warts and all, to stand in the Presence of God. My understanding of the bible is that it has. It is like having a child who is kind of a pain, very rebellious and rowdy and self-willed. But if that child has loving parents, then he knows that despite his bad behavior, he can still get up on Daddy or Mommy's lap at night and feel comforted and safe in their arms. I think that the cross is about letting us know that no matter our bad behavior, our mistakes, our willful misdeeds, our sins, we have been made (not earned but given as a gift) worthy enough to do that with Our Father. At least that is what they taught me in Catholic school and also in various Christian conventions and things I have gone to over the years.
|
|
|
| |
|
ds9074
|
Aug 27 2005, 07:08 PM
Post #35
|
Admiral
- Posts:
- 9,449
- Group:
- Flag Officer
- Member
- #18
- Joined:
- August 27, 2003
|
I dont think that having say a sense of being in this situation before is anything spiritual. I just think thats the mind playing tricks, it usually happens when your tired (at least for me and I get it often).
Also visual illusions and hallucinations are well know to science.
Then again I am always a bit of a sceptic on these kinds of things. For example my Mum was talking about moving and she was discussing it with a friend while driving along. They were just talking about the type of house she would like when she saw one just like it. She has got it in her mind that its some kind of Godly direction that that house is ment to be or if it doesnt work out that she isnt supposed to move.
I say nonsense it was a pure coincidence that she was talking about it and then saw a house and she shouldnt limit her options in terms of looking at other properties.
As for the original question I think perhaps we have to have complete faith first before we are going to get any 'proof'. Otherwise God would just appear in the sky and say hello and 99.9% of people would then believe. He wants us to turn to him of our own choice and have faith. If God appeared to everyone in a very obvious way there wouldnt be much room left for choice.
|
|
|
| |
|
Franko
|
Aug 27 2005, 07:17 PM
Post #36
|
Shower Moderator
- Posts:
- 7,303
- Group:
- Cadet
- Member
- #299
- Joined:
- January 9, 2005
|
Strangely enough, some of my most profound spiritual experiences have come when I've been in a state of angry skepticism (about the unfairness of existence) or carrying around a lot of guilt. I'm not sure that "the powers that be" would withhold "revelatory experiences" or cosmic moments of joy merely because one has been a little naughty, or perhaps failed to live up to their own expectations, which I certainly know awwwwllll about.......
I'm not certain that my quest for God and understanding aspects of "higher reality" are really for the purpose of "comforting" me. That may be the motive for some religious people, but all too often I've observed that it can often be a desire for a tangible "structure" to their lives and a source for "moral" guidance.
I tend to be a fan of Jesus because I agree with him and believe that some of the stuff he taught is a little more mysterious than "traditional interpretations" would have one believe. I find Sermon On The Mount to be quite a 'tour de force' outline of the way humans should approach each other, reality, and God.
On the other hand, I'm not completely convinced that Jesus is in fact God, since I still venerate "the Father" as it were, although not quite the same guy in the Old Testament mythologies who turns people into salt, etc. etc.
What all this means is that I am unorthodox, heretical, still a techno-humanist, a doubter, and likely sooo screwed on 'Judgement Day'. But I'm not interested in being "right" and having "certainty". I'm only interested in an honest evalutation of my experiences and perceptions and beliefs. In the end God will understand; that's why he's God.
And you're not. No silly human will have any say about my post-temporal disposition; nor will any human have any "power" over me in the afterlife.
Now that's what I call comforting.
|
|
|
| |
|
Swidden
|
Aug 27 2005, 07:53 PM
Post #37
|
Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
- Posts:
- 12,243
- Group:
- Flag Officer
- Member
- #31
- Joined:
- August 30, 2003
|
- 24thcenstfan
- Aug 27 2005, 04:47 PM
- psyfi
- Aug 27 2005, 07:24 PM
- 24thcenstfan
- Aug 27 2005, 05:54 PM
- psyfi
- Aug 27 2005, 02:16 AM
- 24thcenstfan
- Aug 26 2005, 09:51 PM
I can't speak for other people, but it would be important for my own spiritual growth to experience something concrete that proves the existence of God.
However, I have never considered myself worthy of being presented with that proof (in whatever form). So I don't ever expect to receive it.
I think that all of us have very few of these experiences precisely because we do not feel worthy. In A Course in Miracles it is noted that the habit of "engaging" with God is easily formed IF we do not allow our focus to slip away from that goal. However, it goes on to say that we tell ourselves that we grow tired, that it is hard to concentrate so steadily, and so forth but that none of these reasons are true. The true reason that we find ourselves unable to main the focus is that we feel we are not worth the effort. I do believe this.
I will have to disagree with that. I don't think feeling unworthy has anything to do with losing focus on God. A person could be very devout and talk to God 24/7 and still feel unworthy of God's grace. Personally, I think the main reason why people have so few experiences is because they are unworthy. I know in my heart that that is why I haven't. I think it is a form of punishment for our past deeds. This doesn't mean that there aren't other reasons why experiences don't occur. Losing focus on God could be one reason.
Well I don't know if you are a Christian but if you are, I take it that you do not feel that through Jesus you have been made worthy?
I am a Christian, and no I do not. I think he definitely died for my sins. However, I don’t think that abdicates my responsibility for whatever sin I have committed or will commit. The fact that I have committed sins and will probably commit more sins (I am not perfect after all), means I have dishonored Jesus and will unfortunately dishonor his actions again. That has made me unworthy. I certainly don’t think God is going to say, “24, Jesus did this great deed on your behalf, and as a result, I am going to overlook the fact that you did, this, that and the other.” No way do I believe that He will do that. When judgment day comes, I am going to get an ear full. I expect that and I deserve that (if it turns out that I am right).
My thinking is along the lines of 24's. It matches up pretty well with what I have learned as a Catholic. We all have the potential to do either good or ill. For whatever reason we do wrong we are then expected to take ownership of having done so. For Catholics, this means going to confession and actually expressing out loud to someone else just what it is we have done wrong then working towards absolution of the sin (whether by prayer alone or combined with action).
|
|
|
| |
|
who
|
Aug 27 2005, 08:30 PM
Post #38
|
Have light saber. Will travel.
- Posts:
- 2,250
- Group:
- Senior Officer
- Member
- #381
- Joined:
- March 12, 2005
|
- 24thcenstfan
- Aug 27 2005, 05:54 PM
- psyfi
- Aug 27 2005, 02:16 AM
- 24thcenstfan
- Aug 26 2005, 09:51 PM
I can't speak for other people, but it would be important for my own spiritual growth to experience something concrete that proves the existence of God.
However, I have never considered myself worthy of being presented with that proof (in whatever form). So I don't ever expect to receive it.
I think that all of us have very few of these experiences precisely because we do not feel worthy. In A Course in Miracles it is noted that the habit of "engaging" with God is easily formed IF we do not allow our focus to slip away from that goal. However, it goes on to say that we tell ourselves that we grow tired, that it is hard to concentrate so steadily, and so forth but that none of these reasons are true. The true reason that we find ourselves unable to main the focus is that we feel we are not worth the effort. I do believe this.
I will have to disagree with that. I don't think feeling unworthy has anything to do with losing focus on God. A person could be very devout and talk to God 24/7 and still feel unworthy of God's grace. Personally, I think the main reason why people have so few experiences is because they are unworthy. I know in my heart that that is why I haven't. I think it is a form of punishment for our past deeds. This doesn't mean that there aren't other reasons why experiences don't occur. Losing focus on God could be one reason.
It is unclear to me what is being meant here by "focus on God". I think a person can be very devout and talk to God 24/7 and still feel unworthy of God's grace. I suspect that these feelings of unworthyness would block the awareness of God.
I believe we only punish ourselves, God does not punish.
|
|
|
| |
|
ds9074
|
Aug 27 2005, 09:08 PM
Post #39
|
Admiral
- Posts:
- 9,449
- Group:
- Flag Officer
- Member
- #18
- Joined:
- August 27, 2003
|
- Quote:
-
Strangely enough, some of my most profound spiritual experiences have come when I've been in a state of angry skepticism (about the unfairness of existence) or carrying around a lot of guilt. I'm not sure that "the powers that be" would withhold "revelatory experiences" or cosmic moments of joy merely because one has been a little naughty, or perhaps failed to live up to their own expectations, which I certainly know awwwwllll about.......
I'm not saying you would have to be without sin to have God reveal himself to you. Just that I would expect that you would have to have faith first. Think about most of the miricles that Jesus performed. It was usually because the person had faith in Jesus to heal them.
- Quote:
-
On the other hand, I'm not completely convinced that Jesus is in fact God, since I still venerate "the Father" as it were, although not quite the same guy in the Old Testament mythologies who turns people into salt, etc. etc.
You can still venerate the Father as well as believe Jesus is God.
This is the creed used by the Church of England. I particularly like that God of God, Light of Light, Very God of very God, Begotten, not made, Being of one substance with the Father.
- Quote:
-
I BELIEVE in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, And of all things visible and invisible: And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten son of God, Begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of very God, Begotten, not made, Being of one substance with the Father, By whom all things were made: Who for us men, and for our salvation came down from heaven, And was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, And was made man, And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, And the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, And ascended into heaven, And sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and dead: Whose kingdom shall have no end. And I believe in the Holy Ghost, The Lord and giver of life, Who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spake by the Prophets. And I believe one Catholick and Apostolick Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins. And I look for the Resurrection of the dead, And the life of the world to come. Amen.
|
|
|
| |
|
Swidden
|
Aug 27 2005, 09:44 PM
Post #40
|
Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
- Posts:
- 12,243
- Group:
- Flag Officer
- Member
- #31
- Joined:
- August 30, 2003
|
- ds9074
- Aug 27 2005, 07:08 PM
- Quote:
-
Strangely enough, some of my most profound spiritual experiences have come when I've been in a state of angry skepticism (about the unfairness of existence) or carrying around a lot of guilt. I'm not sure that "the powers that be" would withhold "revelatory experiences" or cosmic moments of joy merely because one has been a little naughty, or perhaps failed to live up to their own expectations, which I certainly know awwwwllll about.......
I'm not saying you would have to be without sin to have God reveal himself to you. Just that I would expect that you would have to have faith first. Think about most of the miricles that Jesus performed. It was usually because the person had faith in Jesus to heal them.
First, the chances of there being a human being without sin are few. I haven't met one yet, though it is possible that such have existed.
Second, regarding upon whom miracles were performed, it is true that most were upon people that had some degree of belief in God/Christ in the first place. One notable exception would probably be St. Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus. Another might be Moses who, though Jewish, was raised Egyptian and possibly had no real belief in Yaweh until he came upon that burning bush.
|
|
|
| |
|
who
|
Aug 27 2005, 10:40 PM
Post #41
|
Have light saber. Will travel.
- Posts:
- 2,250
- Group:
- Senior Officer
- Member
- #381
- Joined:
- March 12, 2005
|
- ds9074
- Aug 27 2005, 07:08 PM
I dont think that having say a sense of being in this situation before is anything spiritual. I just think thats the mind playing tricks, it usually happens when your tired (at least for me and I get it often).
I remember the final episode (I think) of TNG with Wesley, the traveler, and the American Indians. The "medicine man" asked Wesley to look around him and tell him what he thought the Indians believed was sacred. Wesley picked out a few things. The Indian said that they considered everything sacred including the dirt under their feet. In a similar way, I believe our entire world is spiritual in the sense that God is in everything we see. We are just not aware of it.
- ds9074
- Aug 27 2005, 07:08 PM
Also visual illusions and hallucinations are well know to science.
Actually science is limited to what can be observed and measured. Illusions and hallucinations are outside the limited scope of science.
- ds9074
- Aug 27 2005, 07:08 PM
As for the original question I think perhaps we have to have complete faith first before we are going to get any 'proof'. Otherwise God would just appear in the sky and say hello and 99.9% of people would then believe. He wants us to turn to him of our own choice and have faith. If God appeared to everyone in a very obvious way there wouldnt be much room left for choice.
I think God is within and around us at all times. I further believe that we have erected ego defense mechanisms that block our awareness of God. It is up to us to purify ourselves to the point where we become aware of God.
|
|
|
| |