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The Paranormal and Spirituality
Topic Started: Aug 26 2005, 09:00 AM (478 Views)
who
Have light saber. Will travel.
Dandandat
Aug 27 2005, 10:29 AM
psyfi
Aug 26 2005, 10:22 PM
Swidden
Aug 26 2005, 06:37 PM
I can't really say that I have had any such experiences. I'll just go with Christs words to Thomas on the subject...

Thomas is an interesting case regarding this point. If you saw a dead man walking and breathing, that would be a paranormal experience. Thomas was actually doubting the paranormal experience in the way that people often do. They have a precognitive dream and poo-poo it as nothing much. They walk into a room and have a feeling that they have been there before long ago but instead of exploring that feeling and going with it as perhaps something meaningful, they quickly dismiss it and go on to focus on the everyday regular stuff. In their dream, they see an angel but instead of reflecting on what the angel said, they dismiss it as the stuff that comes with eating too late in the evening. In other words, they doubt. They want proof before they believe in the supra-normal experience they are having.

Or perhaps it is that they had eaten too late in the evening, or that there dream seemed to be precognizant because most dreams are a jumble of images and sounds that can be interrupted in many many ways and because of this it is a trick of the mind that something seemed to be precognizant, or maybe the room they walked into was similar to another room they walked into along ago that they don't quite remember and their memory is playing tricks on them.


Quote:
 
I do think that people have a hard time coming to see that there is One who knows a lot more than they do and to whom they should be turning for their every decision.


Or maybe it is that people have a hard time coming to see in something that is not real.


The way I see it your posts in this thread are arguing form the stand point that there is absolutely a god (an understanding position since you believe in it) but then you try to project your own beliefs on to others that may not believe as you do.

Dan, it sounds like you do not believe in God and that is certainly your choice. Many of my spiritual/religious experiences were far more "real" than my ordinary experiences. The one mind to Mind contact with God was the most "real" experience I have ever had.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
who
Aug 27 2005, 12:02 PM
Dan, it sounds like you do not believe in God and that is certainly your choice. Many of my spiritual/religious experiences were far more "real" than my ordinary experiences. The one mind to Mind contact with God was the most "real" experience I have ever had.

You are correct I do not believe in god, but if they comfort you I am glad that you have had the experiences you speck of.
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psyfi
psyfi
Dandandat
Aug 27 2005, 10:29 AM
psyfi
Aug 26 2005, 10:22 PM
Swidden
Aug 26 2005, 06:37 PM
I can't really say that I have had any such experiences. I'll just go with Christs words to Thomas on the subject...

Thomas is an interesting case regarding this point. If you saw a dead man walking and breathing, that would be a paranormal experience. Thomas was actually doubting the paranormal experience in the way that people often do. They have a precognitive dream and poo-poo it as nothing much. They walk into a room and have a feeling that they have been there before long ago but instead of exploring that feeling and going with it as perhaps something meaningful, they quickly dismiss it and go on to focus on the everyday regular stuff. In their dream, they see an angel but instead of reflecting on what the angel said, they dismiss it as the stuff that comes with eating too late in the evening. In other words, they doubt. They want proof before they believe in the supra-normal experience they are having.

Or perhaps it is that they had eaten too late in the evening, or that there dream seemed to be precognizant because most dreams are a jumble of images and sounds that can be interrupted in many many ways and because of this it is a trick of the mind that something seemed to be precognizant, or maybe the room they walked into was similar to another room they walked into along ago that they don't quite remember and their memory is playing tricks on them.


Quote:
 
I do think that people have a hard time coming to see that there is One who knows a lot more than they do and to whom they should be turning for their every decision.


Or maybe it is that people have a hard time coming to see in something that is not real.


The way I see it your posts in this thread are arguing form the stand point that there is absolutely a god (an understandable position since you believe in it) but then you try to project your own beliefs on to others that may not see things as you do.

We were talking about what Jesus might have meant by his words to Thomas and I offered an interpretation of those words as they related to the idea of paranormal experiences; clearly it was an interpretation that was different than Swidden's view. Isn't that acceptable on a discussion board? Hard to discuss anything if we all just have to affirm what everybody else says. You seem to be defending the need to doubt, so maybe what I said somehow offended this value you hold or belief you have. I didn't mean to offend by what I said, just offer an interpretation of what Jesus said.
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
Dandandat
Aug 27 2005, 11:09 AM
who
Aug 27 2005, 12:02 PM
Dan, it sounds like you do not believe in God and that is certainly your choice. Many of my spiritual/religious experiences were far more "real" than my ordinary experiences. The one mind to Mind contact with God was the most "real" experience I have ever had.

You are correct I do not believe in god, but if they comfort you I am glad that you have had the experiences you speck of.

I do not want this to be perceived as an attack in any form but is it your belief in death that comforts you?
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
Just curious: What exactly is "spiritual"? I ask this because I consider myself to be a deeply spiritual person, but I also consider myself to be an atheist.

I think the term "spiritual" has different meanings for different people. For some, it is synonymous with a relationship with some God. For others it's more like "religious" as in any religion - those that include a God and those that do not. For still others, it's more synonymous with "love". Or it may be some combination of those. For me, it's about love, connectedness with other people, and maintaining high standards of morality especially in regard to how moral decisions affect other people.

With my definition of spirituality, I don't think paranormal experiences are necessary. Someone who equates spirituality with religion or a relationship with God might find it helpful, but again I don't think it would be necessary.

By the way, I have had 2 of what some may consider precognitive dreams. In both instances, I only remembered the dream as the actual event occurred (I tend not to remember my dreams anyway). In the second one, I was able to use my memory of the dream to know what would happen next just before it did. Frankly, it was kind of creepy. However, the first may have been nothing more than a trick of the mind. The second may have been the same because what I "remembered" and "predicted" also could have been logically expected. But it didn't convince me of a religiously spiritual world. I try to be open-minded about these things - believing neither that it was or wasn't precognitive. But that's also why I'm not convinced of anything.
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
IE, I think we each have different concepts for these two words. The dictionary is not very helpful as God is mentioned in both. I find that religious is often associated with organized religion and/or a belief in God. Spiritual seems to include more such as belief in higher states of consciousness or being that may not include God. I consider myself a Christian in the sense that I believe in Jesus Christ but I am not associated with organized religion and I do not believe everything in the Bible. I consider myself religious and spiritual.

Although I have had many spiritual experiences while sleeping, my most profound were while I was awake. They had little to do with my usual world of perception but with an awareness that was more "real" and more profound than the usual.
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24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Moderator Comment

Just as a reminder, this forum is designed to allow people to come and feel comfortable about discussing their beliefs. No one has to defend their beliefs or should be subjected to attacks by other members for holding a separate belief.

End Moderator Comment
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Dandandat
Member Avatar
Time to put something here
psyfi
Aug 27 2005, 02:21 PM
We were talking about what Jesus might have meant by his words to Thomas and I offered an interpretation of those words as they related to the idea of paranormal experiences; clearly it was an interpretation that was different than Swidden's view. Isn't that acceptable on a discussion board? Hard to discuss anything if we all just have to affirm what everybody else says. You seem to be defending the need to doubt, so maybe what I said somehow offended this value you hold or belief you have. I didn't mean to offend by what I said, just offer an interpretation of what Jesus said.

I was not offended, nor did I mean my words to be saying you where wrong or that you should not relate your opinion. I was just offering the alterative to what you had said. Your words made it seem absolute and I thought it was prudent to say other wise.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
who
Aug 27 2005, 02:47 PM
Dandandat
Aug 27 2005, 11:09 AM
who
Aug 27 2005, 12:02 PM
Dan, it sounds like you do not believe in God and that is certainly your choice. Many of my spiritual/religious experiences were far more "real" than my ordinary experiences. The one mind to Mind contact with God was the most "real" experience I have ever had.

You are correct I do not believe in god, but if they comfort you I am glad that you have had the experiences you speck of.

I do not want this to be perceived as an attack in any form but is it your belief in death that comforts you?

I don't quite understand what you are saying, death is not a belief it is a fact what happens afterword is where beliefs or lack there of come in. Where I am guessing you believe you will go to haven (or hell if you are a bad boy) I lake that belief so to me death is the end of existence.

Now if you are asking me if this end of existence comforts me? I would have to say no. how could that comfort any one, knowing they are going to cease existing? But I will say death is not something I dwell on, some day this will all end so now is the most important time and I live my life that way the best I can.
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psyfi
psyfi
Dandandat
Aug 27 2005, 02:34 PM
psyfi
Aug 27 2005, 02:21 PM
We were talking about what Jesus might have meant by his words to Thomas and I offered an interpretation of those words as they related to the idea of paranormal experiences; clearly it was an interpretation that was different than Swidden's view. Isn't that acceptable on a discussion board? Hard to discuss anything if we all just have to affirm what everybody else says. You seem to be defending the need to doubt, so maybe what I said somehow offended this value you hold or belief you have.  I didn't mean to offend by what I said, just offer an interpretation of what Jesus said.

I was not offended, nor did I mean my words to be saying you where wrong or that you should not relate your opinion. I was just offering the alterative to what you had said. Your words made it seem absolute and I thought it was prudent to say other wise.

It is interesting that my words made it seem absolute because after I wrote what I did and I was thinking about it, I felt that I was probably WRONG in my interpretation. :D

I think, Dan, that there is always going to be some tension, or at least mild conflict, between those who believe that there is a God and those who believe that there is not a God and those who believe that it doesn't matter whether there is a God and those who believe that you can never really know whether there is a God, and so forth. All of these are not mere beliefs but beliefs that serve as foundational to our world view. A person who is strong in any one of these beliefs can sometimes be an annoyance to another who is strong in a differing view. I am not sure that there is much we can do about it.
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psyfi
psyfi
ImpulseEngine
Aug 27 2005, 01:50 PM
Just curious: What exactly is "spiritual"? I ask this because I consider myself to be a deeply spiritual person, but I also consider myself to be an atheist.

I think the term "spiritual" has different meanings for different people. For some, it is synonymous with a relationship with some God. For others it's more like "religious" as in any religion - those that include a God and those that do not. For still others, it's more synonymous with "love". Or it may be some combination of those. For me, it's about love, connectedness with other people, and maintaining high standards of morality especially in regard to how moral decisions affect other people.

With my definition of spirituality, I don't think paranormal experiences are necessary. Someone who equates spirituality with religion or a relationship with God might find it helpful, but again I don't think it would be necessary.

By the way, I have had 2 of what some may consider precognitive dreams. In both instances, I only remembered the dream as the actual event occurred (I tend not to remember my dreams anyway). In the second one, I was able to use my memory of the dream to know what would happen next just before it did. Frankly, it was kind of creepy. However, the first may have been nothing more than a trick of the mind. The second may have been the same because what I "remembered" and "predicted" also could have been logically expected. But it didn't convince me of a religiously spiritual world. I try to be open-minded about these things - believing neither that it was or wasn't precognitive. But that's also why I'm not convinced of anything.

I have known many atheists who were profoundly spiritual people in just the sense you have defined it. Like you, some had paranormal experiences. A dear friend of mine who was an atheist was content to explain such as "Life is a bigger than my current understanding of it." He felt no need to go farther and was quite content to leave it at that.
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
24thcenstfan
Aug 27 2005, 02:29 PM
Moderator Comment

Just as a reminder, this forum is designed to allow people to come and feel comfortable about discussing their beliefs. No one has to defend their beliefs or should be subjected to attacks by other members for holding a separate belief.

End Moderator Comment

I do not understand this comment.
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24thcenstfan
Member Avatar
Something Wicked This Fae Comes
who
Aug 27 2005, 04:53 PM
24thcenstfan
Aug 27 2005, 02:29 PM
Moderator Comment

Just as a reminder, this forum is designed to allow people to come and feel comfortable about discussing their beliefs.  No one has to defend their beliefs or should be subjected to attacks by other members for holding a separate belief. 

End Moderator Comment

I do not understand this comment.

Who,

See the PM I am about to send you.
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
Dandandat
Aug 27 2005, 02:39 PM
who
Aug 27 2005, 02:47 PM
Dandandat
Aug 27 2005, 11:09 AM
who
Aug 27 2005, 12:02 PM
Dan, it sounds like you do not believe in God and that is certainly your choice. Many of my spiritual/religious experiences were far more "real" than my ordinary experiences. The one mind to Mind contact with God was the most "real" experience I have ever had.

You are correct I do not believe in god, but if they comfort you I am glad that you have had the experiences you speck of.

I do not want this to be perceived as an attack in any form but is it your belief in death that comforts you?

I don't quite understand what you are saying, death is not a belief it is a fact what happens afterword is where beliefs or lack there of come in. Where I am guessing you believe you will go to haven (or hell if you are a bad boy) I lake that belief so to me death is the end of existence.

Now if you are asking me if this end of existence comforts me? I would have to say no. how could that comfort any one, knowing they are going to cease existing? But I will say death is not something I dwell on, some day this will all end so now is the most important time and I live my life that way the best I can.

Dan, there is the expression (was it Marx?) who said that religion is the opiate of the masses. I believe in God because I think God is real. This may provide some comfort. I believe that the full realization of God will provide peace, joy, and love beyond human comprehension. I am not there now. What I am saying is that I do not believe in God just to provide some psychological comfort but because I believe God is true.

For those that believe in death and that death is non-existence (I have been there), there is comfort. One does not have to worry about hell or something after death. Death also appears to bring peace and an end to all one's problems.

I do not believe that death is a fact.
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24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
psyfi
Aug 27 2005, 02:16 AM
24thcenstfan
Aug 26 2005, 09:51 PM
I can't speak for other people, but it would be important for my own spiritual growth to experience something concrete that proves the existence of God.

However, I have never considered myself worthy of being presented with that proof (in whatever form).  So I don't ever expect to receive it.

I think that all of us have very few of these experiences precisely because we do not feel worthy. In A Course in Miracles it is noted that the habit of "engaging" with God is easily formed IF we do not allow our focus to slip away from that goal. However, it goes on to say that we tell ourselves that we grow tired, that it is hard to concentrate so steadily, and so forth but that none of these reasons are true. The true reason that we find ourselves unable to main the focus is that we feel we are not worth the effort. I do believe this.

I will have to disagree with that. I don't think feeling unworthy has anything to do with losing focus on God. A person could be very devout and talk to God 24/7 and still feel unworthy of God's grace.

Personally, I think the main reason why people have so few experiences is because they are unworthy. I know in my heart that that is why I haven't.

I think it is a form of punishment for our past deeds.

This doesn't mean that there aren't other reasons why experiences don't occur. Losing focus on God could be one reason.
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