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Do you believe in hell?; Please read below.
Topic Started: Aug 19 2005, 06:05 AM (1,132 Views)
Dandandat
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Time to put something here
psyfi
Aug 19 2005, 08:26 PM
Dandandat
Aug 19 2005, 07:01 PM
who
Aug 19 2005, 06:46 PM
It is our choice to have thoughts of fear and anger which prevent our awareness of Heaven.

Anger I can see being a choice, or at lest letting anger get the better of you. But fear, I just can’t see it, fear is a natural reaction to specific stimuli caused by hormones and other chemicals in the body when danger is preserved. If a lion, for example, is bearing down on me, fear is absolutely not a choice I am partaking in it is a natural defense mechanism my body undergoes to keep it’s self as safe as possible.

What if there was an invisible force field between you and the lion and you were absolutely sure that you could not be hurt? Would you still feel afraid? We live in fear in this world because we do not have totally and unwavering confidence and knowledge of the fact that we walk in Divine Protection. In fact, we are rather convinced that we do not walk in Divine Protection, so much so that we never even ask ourselves whether it may just be possible to be protected in this way; and even if we do ask, we usually dismiss the question and don't think to set out on an open-minded journey to see if it might be so.

And because we are not 100% sure of this invisible force field existence and do the logical thing and protect our selves form the lion, we are some how doing something wrong in the eyes of god. Sorry I could never believe that to be true, it just does not make much sense to me.

The fact that thousands of people who are divot believes get hurt every day makes me pretty sure that even if their is a god it has not created some invisible force field to protect all the people that believe in him. Making fear of a lion coming at you the logical thing to feel even if you believe in god.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
who
Aug 19 2005, 09:21 PM
Dandandat
Aug 19 2005, 07:01 PM
who
Aug 19 2005, 06:46 PM
It is our choice to have thoughts of fear and anger which prevent our awareness of Heaven.

Anger I can see being a choice, or at lest letting anger get the better of you. But fear, I just can’t see it, fear is a natural reaction to specific stimuli caused by hormones and other chemicals in the body when danger is preserved. If a lion, for example, is bearing down on me, fear is absolutely not a choice I am partaking in it is a natural defense mechanism my body undergoes to keep it’s self as safe as possible.

This is just a small part. I am writing of an entirely different way of thinking, a paradigm shift much larger than the shift from thinking the earth was flat to not flat.

One of the greatest spiritual questions is, "Who are you?" What do you think you are?

I see, that makes more sense then what I originally thought you where saying.
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psyfi
psyfi
Dandandat
Aug 19 2005, 09:26 PM
psyfi
Aug 19 2005, 08:26 PM
Dandandat
Aug 19 2005, 07:01 PM
who
Aug 19 2005, 06:46 PM
It is our choice to have thoughts of fear and anger which prevent our awareness of Heaven.

Anger I can see being a choice, or at lest letting anger get the better of you. But fear, I just can’t see it, fear is a natural reaction to specific stimuli caused by hormones and other chemicals in the body when danger is preserved. If a lion, for example, is bearing down on me, fear is absolutely not a choice I am partaking in it is a natural defense mechanism my body undergoes to keep it’s self as safe as possible.

What if there was an invisible force field between you and the lion and you were absolutely sure that you could not be hurt? Would you still feel afraid? We live in fear in this world because we do not have totally and unwavering confidence and knowledge of the fact that we walk in Divine Protection. In fact, we are rather convinced that we do not walk in Divine Protection, so much so that we never even ask ourselves whether it may just be possible to be protected in this way; and even if we do ask, we usually dismiss the question and don't think to set out on an open-minded journey to see if it might be so.

And because we are not 100% sure of this invisible force field existence and do the logical thing and protect our selves form the lion, we are some how doing something wrong in the eyes of god. Sorry I could never believe that to be true, it just does not make much sense to me.

The fact that thousands of people who are divot believes get hurt every day makes me pretty sure that even if their is a god it has not created some invisible force field to protect all the people that believe in him. Making fear of a lion coming at you the logical thing to feel even if you believe in god.

You are adding in a tremendous amount to what I said; are you aware of that? I didn’t say that we are doing wrong in the eyes of God to use physical protection. Nor did I say that the devoted do not get hurt. I just posed a scenario in which a person would probably not be afraid. All I am saying is: Suppose that reality is such that there is a way to have protection in every circumstance and, failing that, a way to remediate any consequence of a lack of protection. Nobody wants to even imagine that this could be true, which is why few seek to discover if it could be true and why few devotees in any religion focus on this, very few indeed, even though wonderful spiritual people they might be.
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
who
Aug 19 2005, 09:36 PM
The perspective is still Christian and includes the traditional. It is a much greater scope of understanding.

You are right in that we are getting off topic in that this started with the usual view of hell. A new thread?

Heaven could not be Heaven with fear and anger. It is a place of perfect peace, perfect love, and joy far beyond that found in our worlds. Fear and anger do not belong there. It is our choice.

I have spent a long time, like many, going down different paths. I have read many books, been with many teachers, and had many spiritual experiences. I mentioned a number of books that I have read somewhat recently. They each provide a glimpse. The only book that explains it to and beyond my current limit of understanding is "A Course in Miracles".

That's not my understanding of the Christian perspective. In the Christian perspective, heaven is a place of perfect peace, perfect love, and tremendous joy just as you said. But, for that reason, anyone who enters will have no fear or anger. There would be no need to rid oneself of those before entering. They will simply go once one is there - that is, if God deems you worthy of entering.

And that brings me back to a contradiction that I noted in my past. Since heaven is a place without fear and anger (by your interpretation or by mine), and since God is supposedly in heaven, why do we see so many references to God's own anger in the Bible? It doesn't make sense. Nor does the concept of a perfect being getting distracted by anger.
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Sgt. Jaggs
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How about a Voyager Movie
I would say it may be helpfull to look to the past. To gleam some sense of wisdom and experience from humanity that has long since their time has passed left a book for you to read. A book of warning, wisdom and experience intended for YOUR benefit as their day ends and yours begins, brief as it may be.

The book I refer to is the book of Proverbs. Read it and compare the word to what you know to have seen in your own life. Then imagine the inspiration for this word.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
No.

No more than I believe there is a heaven.
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Franko
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Shower Moderator
who
Aug 19 2005, 07:49 AM

I do not believe a loving God would creat hell. I think the only hell that exists is that which we make for ourselves.



That's always been my perception of it as well.




The basis of this "hell-fire" business actually comes from the Greeks and other ancient civilizations. Ancient man was quite aware that it was hot underneath the ground. Volcanic eruptions, lava ponds, hot springs, etc. were quite common throughout the Mediterranean world. And most tribal cultures believed that the soul went under the ground and into the Earth; part of the reason that serpents were considered mystical creatures as well.

The Greeks called it Hades, or Tartarus, where the wicked would dwell in the afterlife. The kindly went to the Elysium Fields, a sort of "Eden" like place where life was an eternal picnic. There was also a kind of "purgatory", a midway zone for those who didn't merit either of these places, destined to a dreary existence walking the banks of the river Styx.


I think it shouldn't be surprising that many of these ancient mythical concepts are going to embellish themselves within the writings of historical religious literature. They then become archetypes. It's possible that the wicked will be left out of the more pleasant aspects of "the afterlife", but there is no reason for the degree of torment suggested in the "let's scare the shit out of everyone" horror stories of being a perpetual burn unit victim. It is not consistent with the Abrahamic based religious philosophies, upon which our ideas about morality and justice are based. Mercy is a vital ingredient of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.






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~Luthien~
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Little Sister Of Sistertrek
Fesarius
Aug 19 2005, 03:40 PM
Quote:
 
Luthien, I believe that each choice we make is either for or against God. These choices keep us out of Heaven.

Who,

I would agree with the first sentence. However, I'm not sure about the second, since I cannot know the ultimate decision God will make regarding this. After all, we do know that God's mind can be changed. ;)

The passage in 2 Peter 3:9 which talks about God's not willing that any should perish has intrigued me for years. If God's will cannot be undone (which I do not believe is true either logically or epistemologically), then none would perish. But it's an interesting question nevertheless.

But if you make the wrong mistake God is willing to forgive right?
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psyfi
psyfi
Dan, I thought maybe I might bring some more clarity to what I am trying to say by giving you an example of what I mean. Remember, I am a Course in Miracles student with the emphasis on STUDENT. However, I have had amazing miracles of protection for myself and others and here is one. When my daughters were in their early 20s, they were living in another area of town and got in with some very bad folks, lots and lots of drugs and drinking. They were adults. I couldn’t do anything and they didn’t much care what I had to say anyway because they were in that stage of life where parents are the source of all of one’s problems. I was worried for their very lives and I had every reason to be seriously worried.

So based on what the bible and the Course say about Divine Protection, I took two scriptures. The first is “You shall live and not die, and declare the works of the Lord [Ps. 118:17] and the second is “And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children [Isaiah 54:13] and I turned them into an affirmative prayer saying, “My children shall live and not die. They shall be taught of the Lord and great shall be their peace.” And I began to pray this affirmative prayer, not in some marginal way, a few times a day with lots of begging and such. I prayed this prayer hundreds of times a day. I answered my every fear with at least a hundred such affirmations. I prayed for hours. I prayed in the shower and while I was cleaning house and I prayed in a strong, declarative way imagining this Word of God releasing His Power and His Protection into the situation. I made up a song in which I could sing this prayer. I prayed like this every single day for two months while the situation with my daughters went from bad to worse and it looked like absolutely nothing was happening. You would not believe how many reasons I had to just give up doing this. But this is what the bible and the Course in Miracles told me releases the Power of God into situations and so I prayed my scripture based prayer unceasingly. I was determined to pray until my last breath.

At the end of two months, my daughters came over to visit me, bringing some friends with them. They were so doped up. It was horrible. When they left, I reminded them all to wear their seat belts because they had a long drive ahead of them. They of course didn’t listen and when they were on their way home on the freeway and a car cut right in front of them and they swerved, they hit the protective wall on the side of the freeway head-on going 75 miles per hour with no seat belts on.

Here is what they told me happened. They said they hit and everybody shot forward as if they were going to go through the windshield but everybody in that car said that instead of moving forward they hit some kind of invisible and rubbery wall and that it slowly pushed them backward instead of forward. The car looked like an accordion. They had to crawl out of the window to leave the car. Yet, they had nothing but a couple of scratches. One of the boys who was with them reached into his pocket. He had this little picture of Jesus on his key ring and he said, “I saw him. Here, look at this picture. That is why we are all okay.”

And Dan that is only the beginning of this amazing miracle but this is long enough. I am convinced now that we abide in a Reality where Divine Protection can be called upon to deliver us from various situations. As a student, I can’t receive this Protection reliably yet as I have many psychological barriers to accepting that degree of Love and the change in world view that comes with it, but I am learning. I make many mistakes but I have also had three major miracles of this sort. So this is what I am talking about.

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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
~Luthien~
Aug 20 2005, 04:42 AM
Fesarius
Aug 19 2005, 03:40 PM
Quote:
 
Luthien, I believe that each choice we make is either for or against God. These choices keep us out of Heaven.

Who,

I would agree with the first sentence. However, I'm not sure about the second, since I cannot know the ultimate decision God will make regarding this. After all, we do know that God's mind can be changed. ;)

The passage in 2 Peter 3:9 which talks about God's not willing that any should perish has intrigued me for years. If God's will cannot be undone (which I do not believe is true either logically or epistemologically), then none would perish. But it's an interesting question nevertheless.

But if you make the wrong mistake God is willing to forgive right?

Luthien, once again, just to be clear, these are my beliefs. I do not present them as fact. God does not forgive because He has never not forgiven. A common expression is that God is love. Unconditional love is love that is always present, it never changes. I believe God's love for us is always maximal and does not change. If we make the wrong choice it does not change God's love for us. God does not get angry. When we make the wrong choice we suffer because it moves us further from God (or to be more precise, it decreases our awareness of God as God is always here). The only forgiveness that must take place is on our part.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
Quote:
 
Do you mind if I ask additional questions?

Gvok,

You may ask any questions you like of me, but please do so in a PM. Thanks. :)

Psyfi,

Your take on the 2 Peter passage is a very interesting one. I too have not dismissed that possibility. And the Adam reference in intriguing.
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psyfi
psyfi
Fesarius
Aug 20 2005, 09:49 AM
Quote:
 
Do you mind if I ask additional questions?

Gvok,

You may ask any questions you like of me, but please do so in a PM. Thanks. :)

Psyfi,

Your take on the 2 Peter passage is a very interesting one. I too have not dismissed that possibility. And the Adam reference in intriguing.

Fes, in addition to the idea that we may all be dreaming as given in the Adam reference, we can also suppose that this is not the case. Still, I would argue that all will be saved based on a miracle tale I saw on The 700 Club. It was very simple. A little boy (about six) fell out of a tree from very high up and while he was falling to the ground, he saw an angel and she spoke with him and told him how to position his body so that when he fell to the ground he wouldn't be hurt. He did that and he was fine even though he was very high up in the tree. The child felt that his conversation with the angel had been a rather long one and he had asked her questions about "the right way to fall." That got me to thinking that we have no idea at all how God uses time, how He might take a minute and stretch it out so long that a person can have whatever opportunities are required to "make Heaven." To us, it is but the blink of an eye and the person is gone and unrepentant but to the person and God, it could be a lifetime. I think that this could be done by an Almighty God who wills that none should perish.



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Fesarius
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Admiral
Quote:
 
Fes, in addition to the idea that we may all be dreaming as given in the Adam reference....

Psyfi,

I agree that this is possible. It would also seem to support (or align with) my belief that we are living in an unreality (temporally), and that to live in reality will only be experienced eternally.

Quote:
 
That got me to thinking that we have no idea at all how God uses time....

Agreed. "Time, and times, and half a time" comes to mind. This is another of those passages in scripture that has intrigued me for years--similar to the "being caught up in the third heaven" pericope and the "Not I, but the Lord" [and] "I, not the Lord" segments spoken by Paul. Fascinating.
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psyfi
psyfi
Fesarius
Aug 20 2005, 12:09 PM
I agree that this is possible. It would also seem to support (or align with) my belief that we are living in an unreality (temporally), and that to live in reality will only be experienced eternally.

What is particularly interesting about this notion is that support for it can be found in theoretical physics. We simply do not see reality as it appears to be for the stuff we are composed of! I saw a theoretical physicist trying to grapple with the fact that we do not perceive time as it really is which is not linear at all.


Re the scripture on time and time, you are referring to the passages in the Books of Daniel and Revelation?

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Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
Wouldn't it be astonishing to find out that we have been living in non-linear time all along? LOL.

Quote:
 
Re the scripture on time and time, you are referring to the passages in the Books of Daniel and Revelation?

Affirmative. :)

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