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Do you believe in hell?; Please read below.
Topic Started: Aug 19 2005, 06:05 AM (1,133 Views)
Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
I was just going to answer 'because he's da man.' Is the usage insufficient?
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gvok
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Fesarius
Aug 19 2005, 03:53 PM
^^^
Why are you interested in what I believe?

For no particular reason. If you'd rather not say, I respect that. :)

Actually, I guess because I am a Catholic who has not been exposed too much to Protestant Christianity (or non-Catholic Christianity if you like) I am interested in the differences between the two. I've read up on the history but I don't really have an actual feel for the belief.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
I see. I do not believe in salvation by works at all. I do, however, believe in grace. ;)
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gvok
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Fesarius
Aug 19 2005, 03:59 PM
^^^
I see. I do not believe in salvation by works at all. I do, however, believe in grace. ;)

Do you mind if I ask additional questions?
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
Dandandat
Aug 19 2005, 04:54 PM
Not really, agnosticism is a question of “knowledge”. Do I know if god exists or not and can I know if god exists or not.

Theism and Atheism is a question of belief and faith. Do I believe that god exists and do I have faith, or Do I believe god does not exist and am I faithless.

An atheist can from a combination of the above explanation. I can be faithless period and not form a belief at all and be called an athirst (which is how I see my self). I can believe that god defiantly does not exist, which requires faith because I can not prove that position unequivocally, and be called an athirst.

Further since the measuring stick between the two are different one can be both agnostic and theistic/atheistic at the same time. If you take a theistic person who has faith that god exists, they may still be an agnostic because they feel they can not truly know if good exits or not (though they have faith that he does). On the flip side you can take a atheist (a person who is faithless) who can also be agnostic at the same time, though they are faithless they think they can not know if god exists or not.

By some definitions of agnosticism I see what you are saying. But there are varying defninitions. One that I have heard is along the lines of "I don't know whether there is a God or not and I really don't care". To be faithless essentially amounts to that. If you're not going to actively decide "I believe" or "I don't believe" then it amounts to "I don't care" because it's not important enough to spend the effort and time on coming to a decision.
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
ImpulseEngine
Aug 19 2005, 03:56 PM
I don't believe we can possibly keep ourselves out of heaven unless heaven has some meaning other than the traditional Christian perspective. If there is a God who decides whether we go to heaven or not, then it is by that God's rules that it is determined. We might decide whether to follow those rules, but since God set the rules, it must be God that decides whether we followed them enough to go to heaven.

Thanks for the tip on how you do this. :welsby: It is extra work. :cry:

In regards to Heaven I will just run a few of my beliefs by you. God wants everyone to enjoy Heaven. Part of the nature of Heaven is that there is no fear and no anger. If we have thoughts of fear or anger (conscious or sub-conscious) we cannot be aware of Heaven. It is our choice to have thoughts of fear and anger which prevent our awareness of Heaven. Thus, it is not God's choice for us not to be in Heaven but our own.
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psyfi
psyfi
Fesarius
Aug 19 2005, 03:40 PM
The passage in 2 Peter 3:9 which talks about God's not willing that any should perish has intrigued me for years. If God's will cannot be undone (which I do not believe is true either logically or epistemologically), then none would perish. But it's an interesting question nevertheless.

I take this passage literally and do believe that, in the long run, in the final analysis, and when all is said and done, God's Will shall be seen not to have been undone even though we might believe that it has. This is because I also take literally the bible passage that tells us Adam went to sleep and no where does it say he awakened.
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psyfi
psyfi
ImpulseEngine
Aug 19 2005, 03:56 PM
If there is a God who decides whether we go to heaven or not, then it is by that God's rules that it is determined. We might decide whether to follow those rules, but since God set the rules, it must be God that decides whether we followed them enough to go to heaven.

Perhaps all God decides is that we may enter in and are welcome but leaves the decision about when and how to enter in up to us?
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
who
Aug 19 2005, 06:46 PM
It is our choice to have thoughts of fear and anger which prevent our awareness of Heaven.

Anger I can see being a choice, or at lest letting anger get the better of you. But fear, I just can’t see it, fear is a natural reaction to specific stimuli caused by hormones and other chemicals in the body when danger is preserved. If a lion, for example, is bearing down on me, fear is absolutely not a choice I am partaking in it is a natural defense mechanism my body undergoes to keep it’s self as safe as possible.
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psyfi
psyfi
Dandandat
Aug 19 2005, 07:01 PM
who
Aug 19 2005, 06:46 PM
It is our choice to have thoughts of fear and anger which prevent our awareness of Heaven.

Anger I can see being a choice, or at lest letting anger get the better of you. But fear, I just can’t see it, fear is a natural reaction to specific stimuli caused by hormones and other chemicals in the body when danger is preserved. If a lion, for example, is bearing down on me, fear is absolutely not a choice I am partaking in it is a natural defense mechanism my body undergoes to keep it’s self as safe as possible.

What if there was an invisible force field between you and the lion and you were absolutely sure that you could not be hurt? Would you still feel afraid? We live in fear in this world because we do not have totally and unwavering confidence and knowledge of the fact that we walk in Divine Protection. In fact, we are rather convinced that we do not walk in Divine Protection, so much so that we never even ask ourselves whether it may just be possible to be protected in this way; and even if we do ask, we usually dismiss the question and don't think to set out on an open-minded journey to see if it might be so.

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ImpulseEngine
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who
Aug 19 2005, 06:46 PM
In regards to Heaven I will just run a few of my beliefs by you. God wants everyone to enjoy Heaven. Part of the nature of Heaven is that there is no fear and no anger. If we have thoughts of fear or anger (conscious or sub-conscious) we cannot be aware of Heaven. It is our choice to have thoughts of fear and anger which prevent our awareness of Heaven. Thus, it is not God's choice for us not to be in Heaven but our own.

Ok, first off this doesn't sound like the traditional Christian perspective. Also, I thought the subject was about hell or the denial of entrance into heaven. It was from that discussion that I thought we were talking about whether God sends you to hell or prevents you from entering heaven. And it was from that perspective that I was suggesting that, if heaven and hell exist at all, God would have to be the decision-maker.

Now, if you're talking about something else, the sky is the limit as to what's possible. You're suggestion is a reasonable possibility. Within that scenerio one possibility is that we deny ourselves entry into heaven - but only temporarily - until we learn to put our fear and anger behind us. However, another possibility is that God still makes the decision. In that scenerio, God is responsible for the requirement of absence of fear and anger. It was God's decision to create it that way so it's God's decision to deny someone entrance to heaven on that basis.
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ImpulseEngine
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psyfi
Aug 19 2005, 07:12 PM
ImpulseEngine
Aug 19 2005, 03:56 PM
If there is a God who decides whether we go to heaven or not, then it is by that God's rules that it is determined.  We might decide whether to follow those rules, but since God set the rules, it must be God that decides whether we followed them enough to go to heaven.

Perhaps all God decides is that we may enter in and are welcome but leaves the decision about when and how to enter in up to us?

That's a reasonable possibility as a separate idea, but I don't think it fits with the concept of hell. If there is a hell, supposedly you go there for eternity. Whether hell is fire and brimstone or simply being outside heaven, I've never heard of anyone saying there is any choice about when to leave and step into heaven.
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
Dandandat
Aug 19 2005, 07:01 PM
who
Aug 19 2005, 06:46 PM
It is our choice to have thoughts of fear and anger which prevent our awareness of Heaven.

Anger I can see being a choice, or at lest letting anger get the better of you. But fear, I just can’t see it, fear is a natural reaction to specific stimuli caused by hormones and other chemicals in the body when danger is preserved. If a lion, for example, is bearing down on me, fear is absolutely not a choice I am partaking in it is a natural defense mechanism my body undergoes to keep it’s self as safe as possible.

This is just a small part. I am writing of an entirely different way of thinking, a paradigm shift much larger than the shift from thinking the earth was flat to not flat.

One of the greatest spiritual questions is, "Who are you?" What do you think you are?
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
ImpulseEngine
Aug 19 2005, 07:40 PM
who
Aug 19 2005, 06:46 PM
In regards to Heaven I will just run a few of my beliefs by you. God wants everyone to enjoy Heaven. Part of the nature of Heaven is that there is no fear and no anger. If we have thoughts of fear or anger (conscious or sub-conscious) we cannot be aware of Heaven. It is our choice to have thoughts of fear and anger which prevent our awareness of Heaven. Thus, it is not God's choice for us not to be in Heaven but our own.

Ok, first off this doesn't sound like the traditional Christian perspective. Also, I thought the subject was about hell or the denial of entrance into heaven. It was from that discussion that I thought we were talking about whether God sends you to hell or prevents you from entering heaven. And it was from that perspective that I was suggesting that, if heaven and hell exist at all, God would have to be the decision-maker.

Now, if you're talking about something else, the sky is the limit as to what's possible. You're suggestion is a reasonable possibility. Within that scenerio one possibility is that we deny ourselves entry into heaven - but only temporarily - until we learn to put our fear and anger behind us. However, another possibility is that God still makes the decision. In that scenerio, God is responsible for the requirement of absence of fear and anger. It was God's decision to create it that way so it's God's decision to deny someone entrance to heaven on that basis.

The perspective is still Christian and includes the traditional. It is a much greater scope of understanding.

You are right in that we are getting off topic in that this started with the usual view of hell. A new thread?

Heaven could not be Heaven with fear and anger. It is a place of perfect peace, perfect love, and joy far beyond that found in our worlds. Fear and anger do not belong there. It is our choice.

I have spent a long time, like many, going down different paths. I have read many books, been with many teachers, and had many spiritual experiences. I mentioned a number of books that I have read somewhat recently. They each provide a glimpse. The only book that explains it to and beyond my current limit of understanding is "A Course in Miracles".
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
ImpulseEngine
Aug 19 2005, 07:43 PM
...I've never heard of anyone saying there is any choice about when to leave and step into heaven.

You just have.
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