Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Do you believe in hell?; Please read below.
Topic Started: Aug 19 2005, 06:05 AM (1,134 Views)
ImpulseEngine
Admiral
who
Aug 19 2005, 02:13 PM
Another thought is that we are keeping ourselves out of Heaven.

Keeping ourselves out though would have to assume that believing purely on faith is a key to entering heaven. So it's the same question. Why would God make that a make-or-break key?

who
Aug 19 2005, 02:27 PM
ImpulseEngine
Aug 19 2005, 12:38 PM
An accurate description of my position is this:  I don't believe in any God.  However, I do believe in the possibility that some God may exist.  Thus far, I have not heard any description of a God that meets my logical and intellectual satisfaction.  However, if I did hear one, I would strongly consider it.  That said, I also completely expect that I will never hear it because I truly believe there is no God.

IE, I find this contradictory. In the first part you describe yourself as an agnostic (not knowing if God exists or not), while in the second part you say you believe God does not exist (atheist). I find the atheist position hard to defend because there is no way to prove that. It is a matter of faith.

I find it difficult to accept things just on faith. In addition to many other factors it must make sense to my intellect. "A Course in Miracles" is the only book I have read that explains most everything and makes logical sense to me.

As I was saying I am aware that I don't perfectly fit the definition of atheist, but for all practical purposes it comes closest to what I do believe. I didn't and wouldn't call myself agnostic though. An agnostic not only doesn't know, but doesn't care about knowing either. I do care and have invested a lot of my time and energy into the conclusions I have arrived at. I fail to see how my position is contradictory.

You are right that the atheist position is a matter of faith (although I would call it "belief" because I don't think they are identical terms) because a negative (non-existence of God in this case) can never be proven. I too have difficulty accepting things on mere faith and that is why I maintain an open mind.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Fesarius
Member Avatar
Admiral
Quote:
 
It's okay Fes. I have been known to be incorrect a time or two. Thanks for straightening me out.

Psyfi,

I don't really know that much about Dr. Lamsa. But, I try to weigh differing interpretations against one another whenever I do critical text studies. :)

The Peshitta is an ancient translation. For my own part, it ought not to be regarded as having special status, vs. other ancient translations or excerpts/quotations (the Targums, for instance).
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Fesarius
Member Avatar
Admiral
Quote:
 
ehehehehe  No but i mean somewhat less graphic.

Luthien,

Gotcha. The Mall can certainly be graphic. ;)
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
~Luthien~
Member Avatar
Little Sister Of Sistertrek
^^^


Ooh yes ;)
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Dandandat
Member Avatar
Time to put something here
who
Aug 19 2005, 02:27 PM
I find the atheist position hard to defend because there is no way to prove that. It is a matter of faith.

I find it difficult to accept things just on faith. In addition to many other factors it must make sense to my intellect.

I use this definition to come to the conclusion that I am atheistic and to show that atheism does not need to be a matter of faith (which then can turn atheism into its own religion).

Quote:
 
Atheism is the state either of being without theistic beliefs, or of actively believing in the non-existence of deities.

Link


While I do not actively believe in the non-existence of deities (ie I do not actively deny the existence of god because its not important to me) I am in a state of being without theistic beliefs.

Atheism need not be based in the belief that god defiantly does not exist (which requires a decision based on faith alone because the idea can not be proven ture or fules), it can aslo be based in the complete absence of faith.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
ImpulseEngine
Admiral
Dandandat
Aug 19 2005, 04:19 PM
While I do not actively believe in the non-existence of deities (ie I do not actively deny the existence of god because its not important to me) I am in a state of being without theistic beliefs.

Actually, that sounds precisely like agnosticism.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
who
Have light saber. Will travel.
ImpulseEngine
Aug 19 2005, 01:41 PM
who
Aug 19 2005, 02:13 PM
Another thought is that we are keeping ourselves out of Heaven.

Keeping ourselves out though would have to assume that believing purely on faith is a key to entering heaven. So it's the same question. Why would God make that a make-or-break key?

who
Aug 19 2005, 02:27 PM
ImpulseEngine
Aug 19 2005, 12:38 PM
An accurate description of my position is this:  I don't believe in any God.  However, I do believe in the possibility that some God may exist.  Thus far, I have not heard any description of a God that meets my logical and intellectual satisfaction.  However, if I did hear one, I would strongly consider it.  That said, I also completely expect that I will never hear it because I truly believe there is no God.

IE, I find this contradictory. In the first part you describe yourself as an agnostic (not knowing if God exists or not), while in the second part you say you believe God does not exist (atheist). I find the atheist position hard to defend because there is no way to prove that. It is a matter of faith.

I find it difficult to accept things just on faith. In addition to many other factors it must make sense to my intellect. "A Course in Miracles" is the only book I have read that explains most everything and makes logical sense to me.

As I was saying I am aware that I don't perfectly fit the definition of atheist, but for all practical purposes it comes closest to what I do believe. I didn't and wouldn't call myself agnostic though. An agnostic not only doesn't know, but doesn't care about knowing either. I do care and have invested a lot of my time and energy into the conclusions I have arrived at. I fail to see how my position is contradictory.

You are right that the atheist position is a matter of faith (although I would call it "belief" because I don't think they are identical terms) because a negative (non-existence of God in this case) can never be proven. I too have difficulty accepting things on mere faith and that is why I maintain an open mind.

IE, You may be the only one that I have seen do this. How do you include quotes from two different messages where both have the person, date, and time are on top? I would appreciate the help on how to do this.

I do not see how the thought that we are keeping ourselves out of Heaven translates into believing purely on faith is the key to entering heaven. Perhaps we simply begin to study how and why we are keeping ourselves out of Heaven?


In regards to the second part, I think I see what you are saying. It is somewhere between the pure atheist and the pure agnostic? You think that God does not exist but are not certain?
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
who
Have light saber. Will travel.
~Luthien~
Aug 19 2005, 01:36 PM
Fesarius
Aug 19 2005, 11:36 AM
Quote:
 
... i think they would set 'hell' up as something different than that.

Luthien,

You mean, like a shopping Mall? ;)

ehehehehe :P No but i mean somewhat less graphic.
Like that people finally get to see what theyve done wrong in life and get to realize that they should have chosen for God and such,i dunno... :blush:

Luthien, I believe that each choice we make is either for or against God. These choices keep us out of Heaven.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Fesarius
Member Avatar
Admiral
Quote:
 
Luthien, I believe that each choice we make is either for or against God. These choices keep us out of Heaven.

Who,

I would agree with the first sentence. However, I'm not sure about the second, since I cannot know the ultimate decision God will make regarding this. After all, we do know that God's mind can be changed. ;)

The passage in 2 Peter 3:9 which talks about God's not willing that any should perish has intrigued me for years. If God's will cannot be undone (which I do not believe is true either logically or epistemologically), then none would perish. But it's an interesting question nevertheless.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
gvok
Unregistered

Does this mean Fesarius does not believe in predestination?
| Quote | ^
 
Fesarius
Member Avatar
Admiral
^^^
Fesarius believes that God gave us free will. God does not demand that we believe in him. It's a choice, for example. :D
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
gvok
Unregistered

Salvation by works?
| Quote | ^
 
Fesarius
Member Avatar
Admiral
^^^
Why are you interested in what I believe?
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Dandandat
Member Avatar
Time to put something here
ImpulseEngine
Aug 19 2005, 04:28 PM
Dandandat
Aug 19 2005, 04:19 PM
While I do not actively believe in the non-existence of deities (ie I do not actively deny the existence of god because its not important to me) I am in a state of being without theistic beliefs.

Actually, that sounds precisely like agnosticism.

Not really, agnosticism is a question of “knowledge”. Do I know if god exists or not and can I know if god exists or not.

Theism and Atheism is a question of belief and faith. Do I believe that god exists and do I have faith, or Do I believe god does not exist and am I faithless.

An atheist can from a combination of the above explanation. I can be faithless period and not form a belief at all and be called an athirst (which is how I see my self). I can believe that god defiantly does not exist, which requires faith because I can not prove that position unequivocally, and be called an athirst.

Further since the measuring stick between the two are different one can be both agnostic and theistic/atheistic at the same time. If you take a theistic person who has faith that god exists, they may still be an agnostic because they feel they can not truly know if good exits or not (though they have faith that he does). On the flip side you can take a atheist (a person who is faithless) who can also be agnostic at the same time, though they are faithless they think they can not know if god exists or not.

Here is something that is a little more clear then I am being




Quote:
 
Weak atheism or negative atheism is the lack of belief in any god or gods, without a positive denial of the existence of any god or gods. Weak atheism contrasts with strong atheism, which asserts that no gods exist, and theism, which asserts that there is at least one god. The weak atheist generally gives a broad definition of atheism as "lack or absence of belief in a god or gods", which defines atheism as a range of positions that entail non-belief, disbelief, doubt, or denial of theism. A narrower definition of atheism as "denial of the existence of gods" (synonymous with "strong atheism") is also in common use. Those who favor this definition prefer to use other terms, such as agnosticism, for skepticism of or non-belief in theism. It should be noted that a strong atheist also fits the definition of a weak atheist, but that the reverse is not necessarily true: a strong atheist lacks god beliefs, but a weak atheist does not necessarily deny the existence of god(s).

Some weak atheists may be familiar with the concept of a god or gods, yet hold no opinion on their existence or non-existence. Others may find arguments on both sides of the question equally compelling. Yet others may doubt or disbelieve the existence of a god or gods, being unconvinced by the evidence or proofs put forward by theists, but hold that it is not currently known whether or not gods exist. Others may have no knowledge or exposure to theism, and therefore cannot hold beliefs of which they are ignorant.

The position that it is not known whether a god or gods exist is called weak agnosticism. A stronger position is strong agnosticism, the view that it is not possible ever to know whether a god or gods exist. Agnosticism, in both strong and weak forms, is not necessarily an atheist position; it is a position pertaining to knowledge rather than belief. A theist can also take the position that he does not know (and if a strong agnostic, cannot know) whether a god or gods exist, although he believes it, through faith. Thus, theism is not incompatible with weak agnosticism, though strong agnosticism implies atheism.

Weak atheists often argue that their position is the default one: that every person is born without god beliefs, and must be taught the concept before they can become theistic. Ergo, any person who has never been exposed to theism is by default a weak atheist. Some further argue that it is not known whether or not gods exist (and if the strong agnostics are right, can never be known); that neither theists nor strong atheists fulfill their burden of proof; and that theists and strong atheists therefore rely on faith. For these weak atheists, beliefs which cannot be fully justified and which rest on faith are untenable, making both theism and atheism untenable.

link
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
ImpulseEngine
Admiral
who
Aug 19 2005, 04:28 PM
IE, You may be the only one that I have seen do this. How do you include quotes from two different messages where both have the person, date, and time are on top? I would appreciate the help on how to do this.

It's kind of a pain to do, but...

First, I start a reply by quoting the first one. Then I type something and preview it (the typing is only because you can't preview until you type a reply). Then go down to the part where you can modify what you typed and you will see the quote there with the person and time. I copy just the quote into memory (select it and press CTRL-C). Then I back out and start a reply to the second one by quoting it. I then type my real reply to the second one and preview it. At that point I can paste the first quote above it (CTRL-V) and type my real reply to it.

I only bother with that thought when it's two separate posts. If it's the same person and the same post, there's no point.

Quote:
 
I do not see how the thought that we are keeping ourselves out of Heaven translates into believing purely on faith is the key to entering heaven.
By itself, it doesn't. However, I thought you were replying to what I had said and, in that context, it would.

Quote:
 
Perhaps we simply begin to study how and why we are keeping ourselves out of Heaven?
I don't believe we can possibly keep ourselves out of heaven unless heaven has some meaning other than the traditional Christian perspective. If there is a God who decides whether we go to heaven or not, then it is by that God's rules that it is determined. We might decide whether to follow those rules, but since God set the rules, it must be God that decides whether we followed them enough to go to heaven.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Spiritual Journeys · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Tweet
comments powered by Disqus