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Has Religious Tolerance Gone Too Far?; Accomodation versus Assimilation
Topic Started: Aug 12 2005, 06:46 AM (582 Views)
psyfi
psyfi
Political Powder Keg: Has Religious Tolerance Gone Too Far?
By Melissa Charbonneau
White House Correspondent

The Islamic call to prayer is a 1,400-year-old tradition, sung in most U.S. mosques within the walls.


CBN.com – (CBN News) - HAMTRAMCK, Michigan -- Hamtramck, Michigan is a blue-collar town surrounded by the city of Detroit. Its downtown storefronts reflect the diversity of immigrants who settled here. But an influx of immigrants from the Middle East has transformed Hamtramck from a melting pot into a political powder keg.

New Muslim residents are adopting American habits, driving SUVs and talking on cell phones. But many still cling to old customs, wearing traditional dress, and shopping at markets that sell "halal," or meat slaughtered according to Islamic law. Now one Bangladeshi mosque wants to revive a controversial ritual.

The Islamic call to prayer is a 1,400-year-old tradition, sung in most U.S. mosques within the walls. But the Al Islah Islamic Center says they should be able to broadcast over public loudspeakers in Arabic, five times a day, from 6am to 10pm.

The call to prayer states, "Allah is great…Mohammed is Allah's prophet…come to prayer. There is no god but Allah."

Mosque president Ahmed Motlib asked the city's permission to broadcast from rooftop loudspeakers. Motlib says, "Some people, they don't know what time is our congregation, only for congregation coming and participating. That's why we want to call prayer outside."

But the request has split the community. Hundreds signed a petition to block the broadcasts as a public annoyance.

Hamtramck resident Jerry Radziszewski says, "To me, this is disturbing the peace. They understand what it is. We don't. To us it's just a bunch of noise."

Mosque supporters say the Azan can already be heard from mosques in nearby Detroit No different, they say, from Christian church bells.

Motlib comments, "Azan is only two minutes, less than two minutes is noise. Every hour church bell, more than five minutes their bell make belling. So we don't feel anything bad."

Bob Zwollack is a former city clerk who led the petition drive. He says it is an issue of noise.

"Even if they got up on their towers and did it like they did 1,400 years ago," says Zwollack, "where you just had a call to prayer like before, there's not a problem. Who's going to object to that? Yes, they have a right to free speech, but the overall objection was an amplified sound, amplified religious statement."

But the dispute has escalated into a national controversy over religious freedom. The press converged on heated city council meetings, which exploded with calls for tolerance and charges of discrimination.

Hafiz Mohammed of the Islamic Association of Michigan, says, "Those people who are opposing Azan, our position is not a new phenomenon. They are racist! "

Council member Scott Klein says, "The folks I've seen leading this have nothing on the boys from Montgomery, the boys from Birmingham, the boys from Mississippi."

Hamtramck resident Bob Golen protests, "I am not a racist! My wife is not a racist."

Joanna and Bob Golen are life-long residents of this neighborhood, now largely owned by Bangladeshi newcomers. The Golens say they have been demonized for signing the petition.

Bob Golen says, "I don't tell them to believe in Jesus, I don't want them to tell me to believe in Mohommed. The call to prayer is fine, but don't evangelize me where I can't turn you off five times a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. They're going to tell me their god is the only true god? I don't have to listen to that."

The Golens say the mosque is forcing a foreign religion right onto their front porch, proselytizing on public airwaves.

Joanne Golen says, "Why is it wrong for them to practice their religion the way they want to? They can do it any way they want in their mosque, like we do in our churches, in their homes, like we do. I can even sit on my porch and pray silently. I'm all for them practicing their religion, but I do not want to hear over loudspeakers their god being praised in my ears five times a day."

Monther Alkisswanii says, "I think it's racial discrimination against someone's culture or beliefs."

For years a mosque in Dearborn has announced the call on loudspeakers. Mosque-goers say neighbors are not complaining.

Alkisswanii says, "It doesn't bother them because it's not, the call is not so loud. People play music more loud that this."

Others living near the mosque say the daily declarations are hard to ignore.

Dearborn resident Felicia Moser says, "Especially around Ramadan time, they keep to themselves. You hear the speakers every day, every day, for hours. It's just when it gets to the point when it's really, really loud, if you're trying to sleep at night. We've tried to express our feelings about it and it doesn't get you anywhere."

Dearborn is home to the nation's largest concentration of Muslims outside the Middle East. One McDonald's caters to Muslim customers offering halal meals. Shops advertise in Arabic. Mosques line the streets, with more under construction.

Nasser Beydoun, head of Dearborn's Arab-American Chamber of Commerce, says that the sizable Muslim population has earned the community's recognition, including support for a new proposal to declare two Muslim holy days official, paid city holidays.

Beydoun says, "Islam is one of the second largest religions after Christianity, and one of the three monothestic religions, so celebrating Islam like you do Christianity and Judaism. We see nothing wrong with it."

Beydoun expects no resistance. Dearborn schools already grant Muslim holidays to students. One district banned pork and changed lunch menus to meet Muslim requirements. Old-world ways are gaining acceptance, but some see the beginnings of a culture clash.

Michigan columnist Barrett Kalellis says America's lax immigration policy is shifting immigrant attitudes from assimilation to accommodation.

"Great waves of foreign cultures have come over here," Kalellis says, "and they have no real interest in becoming Americans. They want to maintain and set up satrapees or fiefdoms of their original cultures from the old country."

He continues, "They don't want to change. They want the system to change to accommodate their beliefs and customs, as opposed to their trying to change."

American Muslims are gaining political clout on local school boards, city councils, and in Congress. They have support from the Bush administration The Justice Department recently defended the constitutional right of a Muslim sixth-grader in Oklahoma to wear a headscarf in class. And states across the nation are conceding to Muslim demands to wear headscarves in drivers license photos.

The push for concessions and tolerance of Islamic traditions has some in the Detroit area and elsewhere asking, "How far could it go?" Across the U.S. bordering Canada, some Muslim leaders have already established judicial tribunals to enforce Sharia, or Islamic law, to handle family and civil disputes."

What is happening in Hamtramck could be a beginning. A precedent some see as cause for concern.

Bob Golen says, "If it were allowed to snowball. If it were allowed to take root, we would become an Islam nation, and no longer would there be a separation of church and state because an Islam nation is governed by Islam, and not by a republic or democracy."

Others say there's nothing to fear. Tolerance and respect for other cultures is the source of America's strength.

Yet Alkisswanii says, "I pray for this country, and I pray that all Americans become Muslim only. That's just my prayer message to all Americans."

Source:http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/news/040603a.asp


Okay, I love the Muslim call to prayer. It's beautiful. I have a MP3 of the call to prayer (sung by Cat Stevens). BUT, there are tons of churches that have NOT been allowed to ring their bells because of the noise factor. I don't even understand why this idea of having the call to prayer broadcast five times a day is being considered. Although America has a long history of people living in ethnic enclaves, in the old days the idea was to use said enclave to slowly and at a comfortable pace assimilate into the new culture, NOT force it to accept your ways. Or is this just an intolerant view on my part?

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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
I think this problem will continue to grow with different groups. In the past America was considered a "melting pot" where people of different cultures would blend together. I do not think this is happening as before. It can be seen in the rise of people who only speak Spanish. In a recent poll in the UK half of the Muslims considered themselves Muslims first and UK citizens second. One-quarter had little or no loyalty to the UK. Just as Christians wish everyone to become Christians, Muslims want everyone to become Muslims. I think Muslims are more aggressive in their efforts. I also think Muslims have little desire to blend into American culture.

In terms of the specific issue, I think it is a matter of noise. If I had a siren going from 6AM to 10PM I doubt if it would be tolerated. On the other hand, there may be no law about it as I think most noise laws are in effect from 10 PM to 6AM.

I am curious what things are like in other countries like Canada and Oz.
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TribbleMom
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Fredom of religion, I think, also should mean that I have the right not to have someone else's religion -- any aspect of the religious practices -- forced upon me if I don't want it. Broadcasting a call to worship over loudspeakers several times a day steps over the boundaries. Just my opinion.
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Minuet
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I agree with you Tribblemom.

What do you think of the comparison to Church bells going off?
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ImpulseEngine
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I agree with TribbleMom too. And I think the same should be applied to church bells.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Five times a day for less then two minuets? With what I am assuming are normal rang loud speakers (normally can not be heard more then a few blocks away). I do not think there is anything wrong with that and certainly I don’t feel that hearing it is equivalent to pushing region on me any more then seeing a statue of the ten commandments at a court house is.

The only problems I see with there idea are the hours of operation “between 6am to 10pm”. 6am and 10pm are a little early/late to be blasting anything out of a loud speaker. But I am sure a reasonable compromise can be reached where the first and last services are not called over the loud speakers. If the Center is concerned about the public not knowing when the services are, they can explain to people during the 2nd 3rd and 4th callings when the first and fifth times are.
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TribbleMom
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Minuet
Aug 12 2005, 01:18 PM
I agree with you Tribblemom.

What do you think of the comparison to Church bells going off?

My dad was a Lutheran minister, so I grew up with church bells (we lived in the parsonage next door to the church. However, that was only once on Sunday morning, just once a week, and it happened to be in a rural farming community, so it never seemed to be much of an issue for anyone. But I can certainly understand how some folks living in more densly-populated areas (towns) next to the churches would object, especially if Sunday morning might be their only time to sleep in all week (perhaps they worship at other times, or choose not to attend worship at all). I am, therefore, in agreement with noise ordinances as per city standards.

Still, a bell tolling seems to be a very different thing from being verbally told over loudspeakers (5 times a day, no less) that there is no god but Allah. What if someone still believes that there is a God, but refers to that being by a different name? It seems rather like comparing apples to oranges.
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24thcenstfan
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TribbleMom
Aug 12 2005, 02:33 PM
Fredom of religion, I think, also should mean that I have the right not to have someone else's religion -- any aspect of the religious practices -- forced upon me if I don't want it.  Broadcasting a call to worship over loudspeakers several times a day steps over the boundaries.  Just my opinion.

I agree. If I lived in a neighborhood where a Mosque blared "Allah is great...Mohammed is Allah's prophet...come to prayer. There is no god but Allah" five times a day, I would probably eventually get ticked off.

1) Because of the noise factor, the number of times the call takes place and if the first call prayer took place too early in the morning and if the last call took place too late in the evening.

2) I don’t need to hear someone else’s religious doctrine forced down my throat five times a day. If I had kids, I wouldn’t want them to hear "Allah is great...Mohammed is Allah's prophet...come to prayer. There is no god but Allah" either when I don’t subscribe to that philosophy. Even if it is in Arabic.

I lump church bells in with #1. If they are constantly going off and at weird times of the day, I would probably have a problem with them as well.
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Swidden
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Is this really any different than the ringing of church bells prior to services on a Sunday morning or before/after a wedding/funeral, etc. ? True, not all churches do this but it is not an uncommon practice. Some churches these days even have automated bell systems (the Catholic Church I attend is a short distance away and I can hear their bells used on many occasions. The local Buddhist temple is a short distance from the family home I grew up in and they have had a large bell that is rung for services there. Whether it is a voice or a bell or some other sound to signify a service or special time, many other faiths are allowed to use these methods without public upset or outcry...
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Swidden
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24thcenstfan
Aug 12 2005, 02:57 PM
2) I don’t need to hear someone else’s religious doctrine forced down my throat five times a day. If I had kids, I wouldn’t want them to hear "Allah is great...Mohammed is Allah's prophet...come to prayer. There is no god but Allah" either when I don’t subscribe to that philosophy. Even if it is in Arabic.

I lump church bells in with #1. If they are constantly going off and at weird times of the day, I would probably have a problem with them as well.

And yet, Allah is Yaweh is Jehovah and so on...
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Dandandat
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I would have to say This (Click) is an example of religious doctrine being forced down some ones throat. In that light I can't see how hearing "Allah is great...Mohammed is Allah's prophet...come to prayer. There is no god but Allah" five times can be seen as religious doctrine being forced down some ones throat.

I would have to believe that the concept of "freedom of religion" is more concerned with preventing the next Spanish Inquisition not so much about making sure I don't have to hear on bit of a religion I do not agree with.
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who
Have light saber. Will travel.
I think it may be partially religious and partly noise polution. I have a severe noise problem with a neighbor. If I lived next to a Mosque and they were blaring out their call to prayer from 6 AM to 10 PM it would drive me nuts (more than I already am). B}
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Dandandat
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who
Aug 13 2005, 01:00 AM
they were blaring out their call to prayer from 6 AM to 10 PM it would drive me nuts (more than I already am). B}

But they would not be calling form 6am to 10pm, they would be calling for two minuets at 6am, two minuets at 10am, two minuets at 2pm, two minuets at 6pm, and two minuet at 10pm. This equals to ten minuets a day of calling. Maybe this has to do with where I live but ten minuets a day (besides the idea of some of it being at 6am or 10pm) does not seem to be a problem. I have a bigger problem with people honking their horns "all day", or the crazy guy that likes to sit on the bench outside and talks loudly to him self "all day" where I live.
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psyfi
psyfi
Dandandat
Aug 13 2005, 01:12 AM
who
Aug 13 2005, 01:00 AM
they were blaring out their call to prayer from 6 AM to 10 PM it would drive me nuts (more than I already am).  B}

But they would not be calling form 6am to 10pm, they would be calling for two minuets at 6am, two minuets at 10am, two minuets at 2pm, two minuets at 6pm, and two minuet at 10pm. This equals to ten minuets a day of calling. Maybe this has to do with where I live but ten minuets a day (besides the idea of some of it being at 6am or 10pm) does not seem to be a problem. I have a bigger problem with people honking their horns "all day", or the crazy guy that likes to sit on the bench outside and talks loudly to him self "all day" where I live.

If the problem is just the noise factor, then it is up to the community to decide as they have done with church bells. In some communities, it is a "no" and in others it is a "yes" and still others it is a "yes with some restrictions." I don't think the noise is the crux of the matter. It is should I be held a captive audience to your preaching? It is one thing to be out in public and evangelized. You are free to walk away, or argue a different metaphysical notion, or whatever. If you are in your house and have to listen to other's views of who is God and who is his prophet and there is no escape and you have to do it five times a day, it seems a bit much. Granted it is not forced submission to the religion otherwise death but there is still a small element of being forced and it is not so small when you consider five times a day three hundred and sixty five days a year. I just don't want to be a captive audience to another's preaching 1, 825 times a year.





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Dandandat
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psyfi
Aug 13 2005, 02:32 AM
If the problem is just the noise factor, then it is up to the community to decide as they have done with church bells. In some communities, it is a "no" and in others it is a "yes" and still others it is a "yes with some restrictions." I don't think the noise is the crux of the matter.




I agree.


Quote:
 
It is should I be held a captive audience to your preaching? It is one thing to be out in public and evangelized. You are free to walk away, or argue a different metaphysical notion, or whatever. If you are in your house and have to listen to other's views of who is God and who is his prophet and there is no escape and you have to do it five times a day, it seems a bit much. Granted it is not forced submission to the religion otherwise death but there is still a small element of being forced and it is not so small when you consider five times a day three hundred and sixty five days a year. I just don't want to be a captive audience to another's preaching 1, 825 times a year.
You can always walk away (from your house) you can even move.

If it is not considered a noise ordinance issue then I do not see how it coming into your home can be considered a problem. “Hearing” religion is not the same as being indoctrinated against your will by it. Can I ask the church across the street to remove its religious artifacts because I can see them form my house every time I look out the window? In effect visually that is the same as me hearing these calls form my house, the images of a religion I do not agree with are coming into my house.

If its not a noise ordinance issue I think we aught to learn how to get along with our different customs being expressed rather then trying to stop every one form expressing their culture. Some learn to live with the ten commandments being displayed in a public place, others learn to ignore religious callings for ten minuets a day, every one wins. The only other alternative that I see is to restrict religion all together so that no one is put off by a religion that is not their own and that clearly is not acceptable.
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