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Nemesis collectors edition
Topic Started: Jun 16 2005, 12:47 AM (635 Views)
antodav
Ensign
*sigh* I was writing a response and then my computer's screen suddenly went off and the system froze...*sigh*...a brief summary since I don't feel like writing it all again:

*Stewart Baird is to blame for most of Nemesis's faults. He hacked the film to death after John Logan had written a pretty decent story and spent more time focused on action and explosions than he did on the plot or the characters that he, as a Trek ignoramus, didn't really understand to begin with. A lot of the good development for the film was in the deleted scenes. The execution was indeed too action-oriented; we could have done without the buggy chase battle scene for example (although it was cool, but the Kolaruns played no significant role in the story whatsoever) and it was unbalanced for a whole 1/3 of the movie to be action and shooting (though it was possibly the best Trek space battle ever). They shoudl have gotten a director who knew something about Trek. I mentioned Brian Singer, since he had a cameo in the movie.

*I don't see why there was anything wrong with Logan trying to imitate Wrath of Khan, since Wrath of Khan is usually seen as the best of the Star Trek movies. Something worth aspiring to, I think. The story is just different enough to quell any accusations of Logan "ripping off" Wrath of Khan or being unoriginal. Again, several original script elements should have remained in the final cut of the film.

*I thought Shinzon was one of the best Trek villians, right up there with Khan and the Borg Queen. In fact, I think he was better than Khan. Reasons why: Shinzon has an inferiority complex and is driven by jealousy; Khan had a superiority complex and was driven by revenge. The former is more interesting, I think. He also had a closer, more personal relationship with Picard than Khan had with Kirk.

*As a side note, along with Commodore I've started writing a script for a film that ideally would be the next Trek film, and a follow-up to Nemesis with some political allegory strongly relevant to modern times, similar to how Undiscovered Country related, though inaccurately, the end of the Cold War (was Kirk supposed to be Ronald Reagan? Certainly not the Federation President...I didn't get that part). If anyone would be interested in seeing it I have the first act (of 3) done....though...wait, it needs a few revisions. So, almost done, then. :P

Antodav, puqloD Gav
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digifan2004
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Electronic genius
Don't feel too bad, Antodav. I'd my computer crashes on me unexpectedly as well from time to time. Sometimes right in the middle of editing a long respose. It's frustrating but it maybe something we all have to live with. :banghead:

AAR Marina Sirtus praised Nemesis and how pleasantly pleased everyone was with the final product. I think she's just trying to window dressing us on the fact that this movie, by far, is the worst of the entire Trekiverse history. There's no real closure to anything accept Data being killed and Riker finally accepting the promotion to captain.

The appearance of Janeway as an admiral doesn't make sense either. I mean come now! Picard was the captain of the Federation flagship and considered as the best commander in Starfleet. Shouldn't he be the one be promoted?

If there is going to be a director's cut of this movie I hope Paramount will give Baird more power of control over this project and deliver a better version. TMP is an excellent example of a director's re-cut. The original was boring but the director's cut made the movie smoother and better.

Either way wejust have to wait and see.
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digifan2004
Jun 21 2005, 07:27 PM
The appearance of Janeway as an admiral doesn't make sense either. I mean come now! Picard was the captain of the Federation flagship and considered as the best commander in Starfleet. Shouldn't he be the one be promoted?

Picard got offered a promotion several times and always turned it down to remain with the Enterprise.

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If there is going to be a director's cut of this movie I hope Paramount will give Baird more power of control over this project and deliver a better version.


I hope not! Baird had no idea what he was doing as evidenced by the commentary. He was completly clueless and he's one of the main reasons the movie floped.
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Sam The Smuggler
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Make it so!
digifan2004
Jun 21 2005, 01:27 PM
TMP is an excellent example of a director's re-cut. The original was boring but the director's cut made the movie smoother and better.

Nah, I Think The Essance Of What The Movie Is Remained :lol:
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captain_proton_au
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A Robot in Disguise

I belive that in order for them to actually sell some copies, the special edition Nemesis will actually have First Contact, and not Nemesis
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Sam The Smuggler
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Eh, I Enjoyed Nemesis Enough To Buy It. I Generaly Enjoy All Trek I See...Cept A Few Episodes Of Each Series...
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Same here!
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antodav
Ensign
Mike Welsby
Jun 21 2005, 02:33 PM
digifan2004
Jun 21 2005, 07:27 PM
The appearance of Janeway as an admiral doesn't make sense either. I mean come now! Picard was the captain of the Federation flagship and considered as the best commander in Starfleet. Shouldn't he be the one be promoted?

Picard got offered a promotion several times and always turned it down to remain with the Enterprise.

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If there is going to be a director's cut of this movie I hope Paramount will give Baird more power of control over this project and deliver a better version.


I hope not! Baird had no idea what he was doing as evidenced by the commentary. He was completly clueless and he's one of the main reasons the movie floped.

I think Mike pretty much sums up my sentiments on the matter. I would hardly call Nemesis the worst Trek movie ever...at least it wasn't two hours of floating through a cloud, like Star Trek: The Motion Picture (I've seen both the special edition and the original verison and I really couldn't tell much of a difference between the two). Even as far as the TNG movies go...at least in Nemesis the characters were not grossly and absurdly out of character, like they were in Insurrection, and at least the film had a decent soundtrack, unlike Generations. Yes, its true that the movie doesn't really provide a whole lot of closure for most of TNG's characters....but remember that the movie wasn't really designed to be the last TNG movie. Think about Wrath of Khan for a second...if that had been the last Trek movie, as its producers originally thought it would be, would THAT have provided much closure for anyone besides Spock? No, of course not.

I seriously doubt that Nemesis was the last we'll ever see of the TNG characters. A few of them at least will I think probably appear in a future movie, though most likely along with the characters from another one of the series. And if there is a future series set in the late 24th Century, cameo appearances from Picard, Riker, Troi, and maybe a few others are practically a given. That's certainly the plan I have for my own series and for the movie script I'm working on. The closure will come in time, I think...and neither Berman nor Braga nor Coto nor Baird nor any of those other hacks will be involved. Besides that, I think Nemesis stands on its own as a fine movie.

Antodav
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A round of applause for antodav!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Sam The Smuggler
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antodav
Jun 22 2005, 10:28 AM
at least in Nemesis the characters were not grossly and absurdly out of character, like they were in Insurrection

Well, They Were Under The Effect Of The Metaphasic Radiation...

Hmm..Did I Just Say "Metaphasic Radiation"? :rotfl:
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Cool Vulcan
Captain
First Atuodav, long time no see. John Logan is got to be a fan who never paid attention to the detail of TNG, for example I could tell you what should've never been said or done. For a start, as Welsby said Picard never excepted his promotion to Admiral, as seen in season ones "Coming of Age". Riker always said he could never leave the Enterprise, he wanted command of the Enterprise. The story was about clones, reminds me of a certain film from another galaxy far far away, happened to be rumored the same lines. It was copied by the other franchise. The majority of fans would've wanted to see Spock and Sela and maybe the idea of seeing what happened to Yar from "Yesterdays Enterprise". As Mike has said the director didn't have a clue, he knew nothing to Star Trek, its like asking a trainee director to direct a franchise that he never liked or even heard of.

The Collector edition will be added to my collection all all my DVD's of Star Trek. Though I highly dought anything will be of change to the actual film. We'll possibly see the cut sences of Wesley. The same we got originally. I have to saw I thought the other films backgrounds were amazing.

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at least in Nemesis the characters were not grossly and absurdly out of character, like they were in Insurrection 


You have to remember they felt younger in this film. It was about morals rather than what todays franchise has started. In some parts yes characters were out of place. I think it would've been better that Data had to retain his emotionchip. It makes the line it cannot removed, inconsistant. Thats my only complaint about Insurrection, Isort of liked Insurrection.
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antodav
Ensign
Quote:
 
John Logan is got to be a fan who never paid attention to the detail of TNG, for example I could tell you what should've never been said or done. For a start, as Welsby said Picard never excepted his promotion to Admiral, as seen in season ones "Coming of Age".


Agreed about Logan; there were some very important continuity points about TNG that he should have remembered, for example the ultimate fate of Picard's flute, which he gave to Jason Vigo and thus shouldn't still have by the time of Nemesis. Still though I think he wrote a pretty good script. As for Picard's refusal to accept a promotion to Admiral, that is, as was my point, the reason why it made sense for Janeway to be promoted before he was. I'm sure that Picard could have had the job at any time...he just didn't want it.

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Riker always said he could never leave the Enterprise, he wanted command of the Enterprise.


True, but that was 15 years ago. Eventually I think maybe Riker's feelings may have changed...sure, he aspired to eventually command the Enterprise, but it's entirely possible and believable that he finally just got tired of waiting and realized how ridiculous it was for him not to be Captain yet. Remember, he was already questioning why he was still on the Enterprise in "The Best of Both Worlds." If the Titan was a good and important command that he felt was worthy of him then he may very well have gone ahead and taken it...with all the other changes that were happening in his life, including for example his marriage to Deanna, I really think he probably felt that it was time. He did acknowledge nevertheless at the end of Nemesis that though the Titan was a fine ship, she was "not the Enterprise," so it shows that he was finally just making a compromise and being satisfied instead of continuing to wait and waste his career away. Surely a decade and a half of being "Number One" is enough to make anybody ready to move on...no matter how much of a "family" they've become a part of. Just as it doesn't make any sense for Janeway to wait for Picard before moving on with her career, there's no reason for Riker to continue sitting around waiting for him either.

On a side note, by the time of my own series, Commodore, Picard has finally not only accepted a promotion to Admiral but in fact become Commander-in-Chief of all of Starfleet...which he does, as I show in my movie Prime Directive, because following catastrophic events in the Federation he begins to realize that he can do more good as an admiral than he can as Captain. I actually have Janeway be the one who convinces him to accept the promotion...she gives up the job of acting C-in-C herself to Picard because she thinks he's more qualified. Also, there's a major war on Commodore, and after my main character, Geoffrey Henderson, does something that seriously disappoints Picard, Picard demotes Henderson from the position of fleet captain and places Riker in that position instead...once again his right hand man, once again, "Number One"...but now I'm giving far too much away...

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The story was about clones, reminds me of a certain film from another galaxy far far away, happened to be rumored the same lines. It was copied by the other franchise.


I really don't see any connection at all between Nemesis and Attack of the Clones. I really think that it was just a coincidence. At any rate Nemesis was certainly by far the better of the two.

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The majority of fans would've wanted to see Spock and Sela and maybe the idea of seeing what happened to Yar from "Yesterdays Enterprise".


Indeed, so would I. But John Logan has said that although Spock and Sela were both in early drafts of Nemesis, he ultimately had to take them out because he couldn't realistically find a way to fit them into the story. Plus I doubt whether Leonard Nemoy would have been up to playing Spock again if it were just going to be a cameo. I'm sure that story arc will get resolution eventually at any rate.

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at least in Nemesis the characters were not grossly and absurdly out of character, like they were in Insurrection


You have to remember they felt younger in this film. It was about morals rather than what todays franchise has started. In some parts yes characters were out of place. I think it would've been better that Data had to retain his emotionchip. It makes the line it cannot removed, inconsistant. Thats my only complaint about Insurrection, Isort of liked Insurrection.


Well, the novelisation of Nemesis explains that Data's emotion chip was permanently damaged by the Borg Queen...but since that didn't make it into the film and is therefore not canon, it's true; that is a continuity error. One more important detail that Logan seemed to have forgotten...but Piller apparently forgot it too in Insurrection, so he's not alone. I just bought the Insurrection DVD the other day, and I found myself liking it a lot more than I did the last time I saw it...I may do a review on it soon about the things I liked and did not like about the movie this time around.

Antodav, puqloD Gav
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Cool Vulcan
Captain
:clap: Brillent, brillent responce, now thats a real fan folks!

antodav, I plan on getting Insurrection as soon as it hits this place. Insurrection I think is so under rated. I found some of it good, even the CGI (oh my God Gabe actually liked it!) was actually good. I prefer the models to the CGI, it makes it look better. Five weeks before I see These are the Voyages. Nemisis was good in its own right, it was flawed though, according to Trekpulse it has 50 or so mistakes, thats the highest mistakes in the film area of the franchise. I disapprove of the pre-squal film. I know away of getting Sel and Spock into the film. Lets just say watch Yesterday's Enterprise, and think about it. I have a very good idea of a film that would benifit all the shows as well except TOS :(
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antodav
Ensign
Cool_Vulcan
Jun 28 2005, 07:54 PM
:clap: Brillent, brillent responce, now thats a real fan folks!

antodav, I plan on getting Insurrection as soon as it hits this place. Insurrection I think is so under rated. I found some of it good, even the CGI (oh my God Gabe actually liked it!) was actually good. I prefer the models to the CGI, it makes it look better. Five weeks before I see These are the Voyages. Nemisis was good in its own right, it was flawed though, according to Trekpulse it has 50 or so mistakes, thats the highest mistakes in the film area of the franchise. I disapprove of the pre-squal film. I know away of getting Sel and Spock into the film. Lets just say watch Yesterday's Enterprise, and think about it. I have a very good idea of a film that would benifit all the shows as well except TOS  :(

On the Startrek.com boards, I was known for taking things that some people percieved as continuity "errors" and finding ways to reconcile them with canonical Trek...in fact doing that helped to shape my perception of the Star Trek universe through which I created Commodore. I think I've heard a few of the errors that have been supposedly found in Nemesis and refuted them. I'd love to see what these "fifty" errors supposedly are...mostly I imagine they're little nitpicking things that you could probably find wrong throughout the whole franchise.

What is this idea that you're describing though? I'd love to hear more about it...

Antodav, puqloD Gav
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