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TMW - Gitmo and Bagram; (Comic)
Topic Started: Jun 13 2005, 07:29 AM (272 Views)
gvok
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Gvok, I have a relative who's entire family was victimized by the Soviet gulag's. Two members of the family - one an infant when imprisoned - were kept in subhuman conditions for over 20 years - and they were considered the lucky ones. All their families lands and properties were taken. When captured, they were forced out of their beds in the middle of the night and given minutes to collect what they could.

Except for a set of extremely unexpected circumstances, they would have both died there. My relative - just a teenager at the time - breached the security during Kruschev's state visit to the US and, before being hustled away, was able to publicly ask him when her family would be able to come home. To save face, he granted her request.

(My relative and her father were US citizens so the Soviet Union didn't keep them. Her mother and brother were Lithuanians by birth and were held.)

Given that the head of Amnesty International US has admitted on a Sunday talk show that the word "gulgag" was used for promotional purposes - it got him on the talk show - questioning the analogy is not inappropriate.

I find the cartoonists attempt to portray it as such as an attempt to impede discussion through intimidation and quite offensive.

Of course, I am assuming that he understands the issue .... He may simply be THAT uneducated.

Whatever else it is, it isn't funny. :no: :no:
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gvok
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Position noted. I'm sorry about your family's experience in the gulag.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
More Hate Speech, Close Mindedness and Intolerance from Tom Tomorrow - thanx for posting it Gvok.


Admin note (not warning or reprimand)

It was my recollection that it was asked that all Tom Tomorrow cartoons be placed in one thread.
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gvok
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I don't think that was an official request by admin. I thought two comics were consolodated together in one specific instance. If that's the way admin want's it I'll abide. I don't really see why that would be necessary though.
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24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Several issues here…

Tomorrow seems to be basing his use of the word Gulag on recent comments made by Amnesty International, USA. However, Amnesty USA has since backed away from the comparison (specifically comments made by William Schulz, head of Amnesty International USA). For people to continue using the comparison is just an erroneous and sensationalist attempt to muddy the waters IMO.

Amnesty USA backs off Gitmo as 'gulag'

What happened at Abu Ghraib was unfortunate, however I don’t personally think it is representative of the system as a whole.

While there are some questionable issues revolving around Gitmo, I think overall there are few similarities between the two types of imprisonment. I still have objections to prisoners (regardless of what the gov’t is calling them) being held indefinitely without either being charged.

I do however agree with two points that I think Tomorrow is trying to make.

1) The abuses that have happened (documented at Abu Ghraib) and the allegations coming out of Gitmo should not be trivialized just because it is not happening on a grand scale. To do so cheapens us as a nation IMO. Important to note, they should also not be blown out of proportion and erroneously compared to an entirely different prison type situation (i.e. Soviet Gulags). Tomorrow is only perpetuating the incorrect comparison to the Gulag.

2) Ideally, the best way to determine if these allegations coming out of Gitmo are true, would be to experience what the prisoners are experiencing.

However, since that is an impossibility, the best we can do is investigate (possibly investigate security video footage if it is available), and put mechanisms in place to guard against wrongful behavior on the part of those operating the prison. It isn’t an indictment against those running the prison to do that. It is just a matter of the US doing their job to ensure that people are being treated humanely and everything remains on the up and up.
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gvok
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24,

I think that's a fair assessment.
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
I can't quite figure out how this is hate speech, but it does draw attention to the propensity to ignore such reports as heresay and criticize anyone who dares criticize the administartion.
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gvok
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Yes, I did not understand the hate speach reference either.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Dr. Noah
Jun 13 2005, 12:34 PM
I can't quite figure out how this is hate speech, but it does draw attention to the propensity to ignore such reports as heresay and criticize anyone who dares criticize the administartion.

First no where in this cartoon have the issues of Ignoring reports as heresy and or criticize anyone who dares criticize the administration been addressed at all.

What we have in this cartoon are two guys, who represent those who support the president and his policies, portrayed as people who find the death of 30 people acceptable because its not hundreds. How does that even come close to expressing the idea that someone is Ignoring reports because they are based on heresy?

Second, this is hate speech because it makes no distinction between individual people and whole group of people and then paints a unpleasant and inflammatory picture.

If I drew a cartoon of a Arabian man keeping slaves in his basement (ala the post in the politics forum) with out saying which Arabian man I am drawing and making it ambiguous enough to suggest that all Arabian men keep slaves in there basement then I doubt you would have a hard time seeing why someone would call that hate speech. This is absolutely no different.

It would seem to me that it is because you agree with the above cartoon that you fail to see the hate speech in it.
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
I think you missed the point of the cartoon. The people who are supporting the president are not upset because the death toll isn't in the hundreds, they're upset at Amnesty International for comparing Gitmo to a Soviet gulag.

Actually, it doesn't make a distinction for any group of people, therefore no group has been singled out.

You're comparing apples to oranges with your example. These guys arn't keeping slaves in thier basement in the cartoon. That is a specious analogy.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Dr. Noah
Jun 13 2005, 05:18 PM
I think you missed the point of the cartoon. The people who are supporting the president are not upset because the death toll isn't in the hundreds, they're upset at Amnesty International for comparing Gitmo to a Soviet gulag.


I don’t know how that is any different then what I said. But I still don’t see the refrains to hearsay.


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Actually, it doesn't make a distinction for any group of people, therefore no group has been singled out. 
The people in the cartoon are supporters of the president. That is a group of people. It did not give the men names attributing their thoughts to specific people.


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You're comparing apples to oranges with your example.  These guys arn't keeping slaves in thier basement in the cartoon.  That is a specious analogy.
:rotfl: what does this even mean? Are you suggesting I can not impose a similar situation to express my point of view. This argument is what is specious. but just to spell it out for you the men in this cartoon do not need to have slaves for a reader to understand that argument I was making.
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24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
gvok
Jun 13 2005, 12:29 PM
24,

I think that's a fair assessment.

Thanks.


I have to admit, I didn't find anything humorous about this particular satirical comic.
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gvok
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It's certainly not one of his best in terms of humor. I will continue to post this strip weekly because on balance I find it funny and insightful. It also seems to generate interesting discussion as well.
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
As long as people are willing to look at it with an open mind.
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