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The Rapture?; Questions, opinions and observations...
Topic Started: Jun 1 2005, 07:24 AM (656 Views)
Hoss
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Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
Is the idea of the rapture based on the Gospel in which Jesus compares the final days to the separation of the chaff from the wheat?

How does that story end up?
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psyfi
psyfi
I believe the rapture is usually related to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 which states:

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died, so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. 15For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. 16For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Many Christians believe that this is going to occur literally and that, as a result, they will miss the whole tribulation period that the bible talks about before the Second Coming. But not all Christians believe in it and even the ones who do argue about when it will take place and whether it will actually be a literal disappearance and so forth. Some even say that this part of the scripture was actually added on and not part of the original text at all.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
Maybe a thread devoted to this and related topics is in order? It has to do with Catholics, but not only Catholics.
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psyfi
psyfi
Fesarius
Jun 1 2005, 08:16 AM
^^^
Maybe a thread devoted to this and related topics is in order? It has to do with Catholics, but not only Catholics.

I would definitely be interested in Protestant views of The Rapture also.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
I don't want to create the topic for a number of reasons. But you can if you wish. I will participate if it is created.
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24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Since you all were interested in discussing the Rapture, I split off a thread for you.
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Fesarius
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Psyfi,

I think the rapture is tied in with the various dispensations. Since I am not a dispensationalist, I have some rather unusual views on the rapture. I wonder if there is any common ground we could discuss? You mentioned the Thessalonians passage. Perhaps that is a starting point?
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
This story always freaked me out as a kid. I think after the seas boil and the sky falls and the moon becomes of blood the dead rise and those worthy acscend to heaven I think. I would make a killer movie. ;)
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psyfi
psyfi
Fesarius
Jun 1 2005, 08:34 AM
Psyfi,

I think the rapture is tied in with the various dispensations. Since I am not a dispensationalist, I have some rather unusual views on the rapture. I wonder if there is any common ground we could discuss? You mentioned the Thessalonians passage. Perhaps that is a starting point?

Fes, remember I went to Catholic school and as far as I know, this was NOT part of Catholic teaching. However, I think that if The Rapture occurs (and in my book that is a huge IF), then it will happen AFTER the tribulation period. I think this because I don't see a lot of biblical support for the pre-tribulation period. Paul refers to the "Last trump" in 1 Corinthians 15:52 which the Book of Revelations indicates is AFTER the second coming. Also, in Matthew 13: 24-43, it doesn't say that Christians will be raptured first but only that if two are in the field, one will be taken and one left. In any case, it is a very complex subject and I really don't know how much I can contribute to it.

What are you very unusual views of the Rapture?
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Fesarius
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Psyfi,

I think I would first separate the two questions: 1) "What does this passage from Paul mean?" (And, if not from Paul himself, then from whomever may have composed and included it in 1Thessalonians); and 2) "What do I think about 'the Rapture', as it is commonly spoken of nowadays?"

Also, you asked:

Quote:
 
What are you very unusual views of the Rapture?

I think I will focus on question no. 2 for the time being, and try to answer your question above as well. Reactively, I don't think it is usually well to think overmuch about such possibilities. Consider that every Christian who has died until the present moment, had lived their entire life without this happening. What then, was their process of 'working out salvation in fear and trembling'? What practical difference, in my life (and my faith within that life) does this prediction indicate? [And, strictly, a prediction is what I see 'Paul' making here--telling us the 'news from the future'.] Further, I am concerned that a focus on future events risks keeping us from confronting our own sinfulness, the Gospel, and the Christ.

So I suppose my views are not so much unusual as they are uncommon. Rather, I tend to think that the pragmatic is the most important aspect of it for me. I have had discussions with people who believe that there is only one interpretation of what could possibly happen, and those discussions have usually ended up inconclusive (at best), and divisive (at worst). Your thoughts?
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psyfi
psyfi
Fesarius
Jun 1 2005, 09:11 AM
Psyfi,

I think I would first separate the two questions: 1) "What does this passage from Paul mean?"  (And, if not from Paul himself, then from whomever may have composed and included it in 1Thessalonians); and 2) "What do I think about 'the Rapture', as it is commonly spoken of nowadays?"

Also, you asked:

Quote:
 
What are you very unusual views of the Rapture?

I think I will focus on question no. 2 for the time being, and try to answer your question above as well. Reactively, I don't think it is usually well to think overmuch about such possibilities. Consider that every Christian who has died until the present moment, had lived their entire life without this happening. What then, was their process of 'working out salvation in fear and trembling'? What practical difference, in my life (and my faith within that life) does this prediction indicate? [And, strictly, a prediction is what I see 'Paul' making here--telling us the 'news from the future'.] Further, I am concerned that a focus on future events risks keeping us from confronting our own sinfulness, the Gospel, and the Christ.

So I suppose my views are not so much unusual as they are uncommon. Rather, I tend to think that the pragmatic is the most important aspect of it for me. I have had discussions with people who believe that there is only one interpretation of what could possibly happen, and those discussions have usually ended up inconclusive (at best), and divisive (at worst). Your thoughts?

Regarding the passage from Paul or Whomever, my feeling is that it is not to be taken literally. I think that it refers to a qualitative shift in the mindset (much as mystics have had) except that this shift will be far more extensive. Here the mind will be thoroughly bonded to that of the Lord much as Adam’s mind was before the fall. Adam was on earth but regardless of where his body was placed, he was with the Lord in the sense that his access to the Divine, if he wished it, was immediate and came through clearly with no obstacles to hearing or understanding. On the other hand, I am very open to other interpretations and have a kind of “well I will find out one day” attitude--- whether my finding out is on this side or the other.

I agree that Paul is making a prediction and I also agree that an obsessive focus on the future is nothing but a distraction from what I perceive as our walk with God. On the other hand, the bible is given to us for our guidance and edification and therefore its prophecies are part of that guidance and edification and should be studied and understood as best as possible. I do think that a practical focus is important in the sense of questions such as “What does this prophecy mean to my living my life in a Christian fashion?” Or “How should I pray about the events told in bible prophecy?” For example, I feel that the bible makes it clear that we absolutely must pray for the peace of Jerusalem and for Israel in general. Understanding prophecy helps us to see why.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
Psyfi,

Nicely written. I am giving what you wrote some thought as I post in other threads. More later. :)
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Fesarius
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Admiral
Quote:
 
Regarding the passage from Paul or Whomever, my feeling is that it is not to be taken literally.

Psyfi,

This is probably a good route, but without further studying the verses in context I can't say how confident I would be in a 'mystical' reading of that passage.

Quote:
 
I am very open to other interpretations and have a kind of 'well I will find out one day' attitude--- whether my finding out is on this side or the other.

Sounds about right, especially given the uncertainty and the difficulty with finding a (healthy) here-and-now application.

Quote:
 
For example, I feel that the bible makes it clear that we absolutely must pray for the peace of Jerusalem and for Israel in general.  Understanding prophecy helps us to see why.

A very good example. For instance, why pray for Jerusalem in particular (as distinct from, say, Mexico City, or Baghdad)?
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psyfi
psyfi
Seems like our thoughts on this are pretty similar with the exception of the exact interpretation of Paul's passage. One thing I will say, whether I believe The Rapture is literal or not, I enjoyed the "Left Behind" movies. They were not the best movies ever made but I enjoyed them anyway. I heard the books were extremely good but I haven't read them.
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Swidden
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Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
Both of you, Fesarius and Psyfi, have hit on one of the more intriguing aspects of the New Testament, and that is the authorship of certain books (there are some about the Old Testament as well, but we'll save that for another topic some other time), particularly those attributed to Paul. For me the questions of authorship raises some concerns and is a major reason why I personally am not inclined to try to interpret the writings literally. I think the big issues did happen and some likely will happen but not in a way that we are likely to expect them to play out.

Addendum-
Again on the idea of how literal one may or may not interpret scripture. I wonder how likely the rapture would play out. For example, this past Sunday's Gospel reading at Mass (celebrating the Feast of Corpus Christi) featured the passage (and my memory fails as to exact Gospel at the moment) wherein Christ describes that to have eternal life one must consume his body and blood and that many misinterpreted that to be an avocation of cannibalism at the time and of course quickly rejected it. Not measuring Christ's penchant to speak allegorically or metaphorically.
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