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| Science and Religion | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 27 2005, 05:43 AM (842 Views) | |
| Swidden | May 27 2005, 11:08 AM Post #16 |
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Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
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Psyfi, It just means there was no "reasonable doubt". |
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| psyfi | May 27 2005, 11:32 AM Post #17 |
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psyfi
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Well, in real life, no reasonable doubt is considered "fact enough" to fry somebody or lock him away in a cell for the rest of his life. However, my point is that we do often accept the witness of another as evidence, be it in a court of law or elsewhere. Thus, people who believe in the supernatural have both their own experiences and/or the evidence of those witnesses who they feel are credible sources. There is also another kind of evidence. I once saw a man have a physical miracle right before my eyes. I saw the change that happened in his body. Now I didn't have the miracle, he did. But I saw its effects. The witness was his body. So there are even different forms of witness (evidence). I don't know if you meant to apply this to my remarks about scientific theory but if you did, I would say that not all contradictory evidence can be dismissed as offering no reasonable doubt. Often, refutation is dismissed just because the scientist has so much faith in the theory and/or because the scientist has no knowledge of why this contradictory findings exist that he pushes it on a back burner. Now this is fine but it goes against the myth that science is all about objectivity and facts. I like what Kuhn said so long ago: “History, if viewed as a repository for more than anecdote or chronology, could produce a decisive transformation in the image of science by which we are now possessed. That image has previously been drawn, even by scientists themselves, mainly from the study of finished scientific achievements as these are recorded in the classics and, more recently, in the textbooks from which each new scientific generation learns to practice its trade. Inevitably, however, the aim of such books is persuasive and pedagogic; a concept of science drawn from them is no more likely to fit the enterprise that produced them than an image of a national culture drawn from a tourist brochure or a language text." |
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| who | May 27 2005, 11:39 AM Post #18 |
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Have light saber. Will travel.
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This is a complex area that has been addressed by many. It is not quite the mind-body problem. In the mind based nature of the universe, the physical is simply thoughts in our mind. In the scientific based belief system everything of the mind is simply excluded and dismissed. Everything is matter/energy. In the scientific based belief system everything is matter/energy. We are simply biological machines or organisms. There is no basis for morality except for what we decide is legal and illegal. As organisms our primary goal is to do the most that we can to pass on as many of our genes as possible. The secondary goal is to activate the pleasure centers in the organism. Morality is simply nonsense. There are laws that we make up and a system set up to enforce them. We simply obey these laws, avoid getting caught, or face the consequences to enhance the two goals above. If we have a mind based belief system then things become much more interesting. The existence of God becomes a possibility. With a mind based belief system that includes God our goals change with the primary Goal being the return to God. |
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| Swidden | May 27 2005, 11:41 AM Post #19 |
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Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
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Psyfi, Unfortunately science requires more than an eye witness account. That may be enough to cause a question to be asked, but then things like math have to get involved... |
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| who | May 27 2005, 11:51 AM Post #20 |
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Have light saber. Will travel.
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If we are talking about a mind based universe that includes God then perhaps we could simply know the distance and composition of the nearest star or the age of a fossil but does it matter? Epidemics are cured by miracles. I think most of us are so stuck in the beliefs of science and distortions in our minds that miracles may not be available to us. If that is the case then we use our faith in science. We all live in worlds of perception. I have a strong scientific background but science cannot even begin to explain my experience of a beautiful sunset much less the many spiritual experiences I have had. Spirituality or religion can also be based on observed phenomena and careful experimentation. We compare everything. Why not science and religion? |
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| Dr. Noah | May 27 2005, 12:15 PM Post #21 |
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Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
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You cannot cure an epidemic with religion. No doubt medieval Europeans prayed a lot to God to deliver them from bubonic plague, but regardless, millions of his followers perished. |
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| psyfi | May 27 2005, 12:47 PM Post #22 |
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psyfi
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Yes, but I was responding to the claim that there was "not a shred of evidence" to support the supernatural/God. There is evidence of various forms, forms that we recognize and utilize for other pursuits. |
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| psyfi | May 27 2005, 12:50 PM Post #23 |
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psyfi
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It is very true that you cannot cure an epidemic with religion, nor even with prayer. That miracle would take faith. |
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| who | May 27 2005, 01:06 PM Post #24 |
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Have light saber. Will travel.
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Spirituality for me comes more from direct experience rather than, say, reading a book. These experiences are often universal. Science cannot recreate these phenomena for anyone to experience. |
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| Dr. Noah | May 27 2005, 01:08 PM Post #25 |
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Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
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True science cannot recreate spiritual phenomenon. But you cannot honestly say you've had the same experience as someone else exposed to the same stiumulus. Science can recreate predictable, scientific phenomenon. |
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| who | May 27 2005, 01:10 PM Post #26 |
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Have light saber. Will travel.
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For me there is no difference between belief and faith. I notice that you capitalize "Real Science" as one would capitalize God. |
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| who | May 27 2005, 01:19 PM Post #27 |
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Have light saber. Will travel.
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I remember a time not too long ago when science proved that the underlying nature of matter were solid particles called electrons, protons, and neutrons. Everything useful for us today from science can still be derived from this theory from going to the moon, computers, and nuclear fission & fusion. Science does not prove anything. It builds models of the nature of reality that it thinks explains it and allows us to manipulate it. It is in a continous state of flux as more observations come along that do not fit the models. |
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| who | May 27 2005, 01:22 PM Post #28 |
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Have light saber. Will travel.
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Everything is subjective in that all observation involves a subject and an object. It is the nature of perception. |
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| Dr. Noah | May 27 2005, 01:22 PM Post #29 |
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Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
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Science doesn't prove anything? So you don't believe the Earth is round and it revolves around the Sun? Science has proven that. |
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| who | May 27 2005, 01:30 PM Post #30 |
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Have light saber. Will travel.
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You cannot prove that one cannot cure an epidemic with miracles. That is your belief in science speaking. You may not believe in what is recorded about Jesus but a huge number of people believe in his miracles including his power over death. Just because most cannot do it does not make it untrue. Most cannot build an atomic bomb, a computer, or even a microwave oven. These things are only for the high priests of science. |
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