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Who do you think Jesus was/is?
Topic Started: May 17 2005, 08:04 PM (588 Views)
Fesarius
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Admiral
Quote:
 
I would say that Jesus was just a man except that I think that he was more than that, he was an exceptional man....

Noah,

You might not be that far off from how Josephus viewed Christ. Of course, I can't really know that, but it sounds very similar to what he left us in Antiquities (and related works).
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
I've never heard of him. Who was he?
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Fesarius
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Noah,

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08522a.htm

Flavius Josephus

"Jewish historian, born A.D. 37, at Jerusalem; died about 101. He belonged to a distinguished priestly family, whose paternal ancestors he himself traces back five generations; his mother's family claimed descent from the Machabeans. He received a good education, and association with distinguished scholars developed his intellectual gifts, more especially his memory and power of judgment. He also made himself fully acquainted with and tried the leading politico-religious Jewish parties of his age -- the Essenes, Pharisees, and Sadducees."

Here is what prompted my comparative statement:

"About this time lived Jesus, a man full of wisdom, if indeed one may call Him a man. For He was the doer of incredible things, and the teacher of such as gladly received the truth. He thus attracted to Himself many Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ. On the accusation of the leading men of our people, Pilate condemned Him to death upon the cross; nevertheless those who had previously loved Him still remained faithful to Him. For on the third day He again appeared to them living, just as, in addition to a thousand other marvellous things, prophets sent by God had foretold. And to the present day the race of those who call themselves Christians after Him has not ceased."
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Dr. Noah
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I agree. I think you're right, I think I would like to hear more about what he has to say. Thanks Fes! :)
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Fesarius
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^^^
Noah,

Great. But one thing I'm not certain about in the quoted material (second paragraph) above. I have never heard of Josephus claiming in any of his writings that 'He [Jesus] was the Christ.' That could be misleading, so please be cautious. I will dig a little deeper on that point.
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Dr. Noah
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Interesting how he describes him as "The Christ" :angel:
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Fesarius
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^^^
Noah,

As I cautioned, that was on a Web site. (Web sites are not nearly as authoritative, since the peer-review process is often lacking.) I am going to try to corroborate this reference with a print resource.
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Fesarius
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Noah,

I have a response from my friend, who is a medieval (and early Church Fathers) historian. Here is what he said:

"Josephus didn't write that excerpt. It was tipped in by a later hand. Most likely, he may have written something in that place in the text, referring to Jesus, which was later expanded."

I don't mind apologetics (of any faith); however, I do not give too much credence to revisionist history, nor to intellectual dishonesty (if that is what is occurring here). My friend has access to many resources, and he has studied these kinds of things far longer than I have. So, I tend to accept what he has to say on the subject as more authoritative than what are in my view less credible sources. Of course, I would require about three or four additional sources to corroborate his findings before I would feel more at home with the conclusion.
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Swidden
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Fearius and Noah,

The site is the one that contains "The Catholic Encyclopedia" link from Jag's Catholic thread last week. It is heavily canted towards Catholicism.
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Fesarius
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Thanks. I thought there was something familiar with it.... ;)
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Fesarius
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Noah,

Here is a bit more. There is an active scholarly discussion on the point of who would have expanded Josephus at that point in the text. Possibly a Syrian Christian of the 3rd century, but I haven't studied the question closely.

If the electronic source that I provided does not reference the expansion issue (I have not checked whether it does or not), then it is immediately suspect. It is a well-known topic in first-century studies.

BTW, Josephus is an excellent source for John the Baptist (whom he discusses outside of any context involving Jesus). Josephus also references James the Just, and I believe there is an incidental mention of Jesus at that point.

I have a nineteenth-century translation of Josephus (in a modern edition).
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doctortobe
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I beleive that in my studies that many historians agree that if you take out the obvious additions, that the piece actually fits the writing style of Josephus. I'd have to find my source again however.
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Fesarius
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[Moderator may move if they so desire.]

Relative to earlier Scriptures (Jewish & Christian), I think of the Koran as capturing what had been (until then) a mostly oral tradition. There were early Syriac versions of our Scriptures, but no specifically Arabic version that I know of.

In the oral traditions, and for instance in the NT apocrypha, legendary material shows up. Some similar material seems to be reflected in the Koran. I would have thought that some additional tidbits of historical information about John the Baptist might show up in the Koran, but as far as I am aware, there is nothing.

I am working my way through Meier's A Marginal Jew, and will be soon heading into the third volume. I think I will need to buy it. Meier does a very good job with assessing 'the historical Jesus'--probably the best I've seen. He handles the question of miracles quite well as well.
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