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Gay Men Respond Differently to Pheromones
Topic Started: May 9 2005, 06:58 PM (844 Views)
Mainiac
Lieutenant Commander
Some thoughts...We all fall at some point on a spectrum ranging from 100% hetero to 100% gay...except for those two individuals who are at the extreme ends (pun intended) of the global population. And I think the problem is largely with our need to label everyone. I'm still not sure about biological determinism - I think it remains to be definatively proven, but there is no doubt, (in my mind), that environment and socialization influence our sexual behavior and preferences.

I think that means I'm in basic agreement with Doctor2be and Dwayne! Who'd a thunk it? :lol:
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Wichita - just as an aside to your comments - has anyone ever even heard of a study involving lesbians?

The genetic studies always seem to involve men :shrug:
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Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
And don't forget, some of them are male lesbians.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Fesarius
May 14 2005, 04:44 PM
^^^
And don't forget, some of them are male lesbians.

:huh:

Are you referring to males who have undergone gender reassignment hormone treatments and surgery , and then choose to behave like lesbians ?

Minuet : Maybe lesbian sex is more culturally accepted , hence not many studies.
It is the subject of considerable voyeristic "literature" , all you have to do to see that is go to the nearest newsagency and look at all the voyeristic magazines on the shelves and on open display, or even in many broadsheets (particularly those owned by Murdock - the tits and bums king of the broadsheets).
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Dwayne
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Minuet
May 14 2005, 03:52 PM
Wichita - just as an aside to your comments - has anyone ever even heard of a study involving lesbians?

The genetic studies always seem to involve men :shrug:

Yes ... in fact there have been studies of lesbians that show physical characteristic that suggest female homosexuality.
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Dwayne
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somerled
May 14 2005, 11:17 PM
Fesarius
May 14 2005, 04:44 PM
^^^
And don't forget, some of them are male lesbians.

:huh:

Are you referring to males who have undergone gender reassignment hormone treatments and surgery , and then choose to behave like lesbians ?

Minuet : Maybe lesbian sex is more culturally accepted , hence not many studies.
It is the subject of considerable voyeristic "literature" , all you have to do to see that is go to the nearest newsagency and look at all the voyeristic magazines on the shelves and on open display, or even in many broadsheets (particularly those owned by Murdock - the tits and bums king of the broadsheets).

All straight men are just lesbians trapped in a mans body.

As for the rest of your comments ... I'll let someone else take that upon their shoulders.
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
Doctortobe,

For the most part, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm choosing not to reply to each point here because I would first have to clarify so much of what I already said hoping it makes more sense the second time since it apparently didn't the first time. Such are the limitations of a messageboard conversation.

Rather than go that route which historically (at least for me) has proven a waste of time since the conversation typically deteriorates after that, I would like to offer one more point as food for thought.

If I understand your position correctly, you are saying that homosexuals are born with tendencies, but not inevitabilities. That is, those tendencies can flourish or be stifled or some degree in between depending on environmental/social factors. But consider this: How much influence can "nurture" have on whether you are a male or female? Or on whether you have blonde hair or brown hair? Or on whether you have a particular ethnic appearance? Or a deep voice vs. a higher pitched voice? There certainly are biological characteristics that are set in stone by genetics.

I happen to believe that homosexuality is one of those. Sure someone can behave contrary to their biology due to social or environmental circumstances. I am a male, but if I thought there was good reason I could still dress and behave like a female and hope that it was convincing. Nonetheless, I would still be a male.
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
Problem is, those are purely physiological characteristics. We are talking about one that has strong psychological influences as well.

Now here is the major problem with the biological component. After your genetics is determined, sexuality is all hormonal. When you are in your mother's womb, you get a shot of sex hormone to determine gender and then you flatline sexually. For 13 odd years. That's right, prepubescent males and females are practically biologically identical except for the obvious differences in genitalia. Only when puberty hits do the sex hormones start to flow again and the additional differences between male and female come into play.

So then, the question must be asked. Biologically we are sexually stagnant from birth until puberty. But children do have sexual tendencies during childhood. What causes these changes though? It cannot be biological at all because the body is incapable of making said changes due to a lack of hormones. But the brain is developing and changing rapidly. The children are taking experiances from their environment and are using them to change their outlooks on a variety of things, including sex. A child that spends a great deal of time around the opposite sex can easily see their own personality shift to be more in line with that opposite gender.

So we already see a MAJOR influence on the part of nurture. During that long development between birth and puberty. It is during that time that the body CANNOT influence the person in any way.
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
doctortobe
May 15 2005, 01:53 AM
Problem is, those are purely physiological characteristics.  We are talking about one that has strong psychological influences as well.

To that last sentence: Really? No. That is not fact. Actually, that very question is what this discussion is all about...

Quote:
 
Now here is the major problem with the biological component.  After your genetics is determined, sexuality is all hormonal.  When you are in your mother's womb, you get a shot of sex hormone to determine gender and then you flatline sexually.  For 13 odd years.  That's right, prepubescent males and females are practically biologically identical except for the obvious differences in genitalia.  Only when puberty hits do the sex hormones start to flow again and the additional differences between male and female come into play.
First, I can tell you from personal experience that I had strong sex drives as early as 10. So your "13 odd years" doesn't make sense to me. But anyway, why can't it be biologically determined at birth how those hormones will drive one's sexuality the same as happens with other characteristics of gender-specific pubescent changes?

Quote:
 
So then, the question must be asked.  Biologically we are sexually stagnant from birth until puberty.  But children do have sexual tendencies during childhood.  What causes these changes though?  It cannot be biological at all because the body is incapable of making said changes due to a lack of hormones.  But the brain is developing and changing rapidly.  The children are taking experiances from their environment and are using them to change their outlooks on a variety of things, including sex.  A child that spends a great deal of time around the opposite sex can easily see their own personality shift to be more in line with that opposite gender.
Again, this is all about how a person blends environment and biology to shape behavior.

Quote:
 
So we already see a MAJOR influence on the part of nurture.  During that long development between birth and puberty.  It is during that time that the body CANNOT influence the person in any way.
Really? So we know everything that there is to know now about human anatomy...? Because that's the only way "CANNOT" can be accurate... Regardless, IMO, that period is only relevant to behavior. It doesn't change a person's biologically-based sexuality.
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Dwayne
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It really is this simple ... can a person, regardless of genetic factors, CHOOSE to have sex with someone of the same or opposite sex?

The answer, speaking from personal experience, is yes!

Genetics can determine your natural inclinations, but genetics will not determine what you choose to do.

Some people are absolutely reticent to hear or see the word "choice" associated with homosexuality in any way. So much so in fact, that they are incapable of accepting the idea that even a flaming gay guy has a choice whether or not to act upon genetically programmed emotional impulses.

I'm totally of the belief that gay men or women have genetic tendencies towards same sex attraction. It is an inate part of our being. When we look at the opposite sex, there's just not the same spark as there is when look at the same sex. All that said, I still have the ability to choose. Ultimately my genetics don't control me, but only influence my choices.
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Fesarius
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Quote:
 
Are you referring to males who have undergone gender reassignment hormone treatments and surgery , and then choose to behave like lesbians ?

Somerled,

I was referring to one man with whom I work who refers to himself as a male lesbian. He is convicted of this, so I assume what he says must be true for him.
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Dwayne
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Saying you're a lesbian trapped in a mans body, is a round-about way of saying you're a straight man.
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Dwayne
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Fesarius
May 15 2005, 12:40 PM
Quote:
 
Are you referring to males who have undergone gender reassignment hormone treatments and surgery , and then choose to behave like lesbians ?

Somerled,

I was referring to one man with whom I work who refers to himself as a male lesbian. He is convicted of this, so I assume what he says must be true for him.

And on a side note, Fesarius, what's with the kid-pix in your signature and whatnot?
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Fesarius
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Admiral
Quote:
 
And on a side note, Fesarius, what's with the kid-pix in your signature and whatnot?

Dwayne,

The characters are from a t.v. show that my children (esp. my eldest daughter) and I like and enjoy watching together. You were absent from the Board for quite some time when someone (CP I think) started a thread on choosing an avatar for me. It was all explained in that thread. Why do you ask?
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Dwayne
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Fesarius
May 15 2005, 06:44 PM
Quote:
 
And on a side note, Fesarius, what's with the kid-pix in your signature and whatnot?

Dwayne,

The characters are from a t.v. show that my children (esp. my eldest daughter) and I like and enjoy watching together. You were absent from the Board for quite some time when someone (CP I think) started a thread on choosing an avatar for me. It was all explained in that thread. Why do you ask?

I ask because it just seemed out of character.
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