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is God perfect?
Topic Started: Apr 20 2005, 09:23 AM (737 Views)
Fesarius
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Admiral
Yes.

Dandandat,

Thanks for creating this. :)
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
somerled
Apr 20 2005, 11:47 AM
No.

(Even if he/she/it/they happened to actually exist.)

So let me get this striate, you don’t believe in god, but if for some reason you are wrong and their is a god, you also believe he is not perfect? How do you reconcile such thoughts, as they are contradictory if each other. Especially with how you come to the idea that there is no god.

You come to the idea that there is no god because there is no scientific proof of god. So if there is no scientific proof of god, where is your scientific proof that if god existed he would not be perfect?
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Fesarius
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Dandandat,

Good questions. Because you are the 'miracle worker,' you shall have an answer--soon. :)
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Fesarius
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Quote:
 
No (Even if he/she/it/they happened to actually exist.)

Somerled,

Not to pick on you, but these statements taken together do appear to be antilogical. My guess, though, is that you have an adequate explanation for your reasons. Perhaps any God that you could conceive of believing in would necessarily have to be imperfect in order for you to believe in him/her/it?
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Fesarius
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Dandandat,

I think to seriously engage the topic would entail pulling out a book or two by Augustine, at least.

I don't think it is easy to imagine a human-like creature capable of love but not capable of sin. What would such a create be like? How would its mental state and moral condition differ from ours?

If such a creature cannot be decribed without contradiction, then there is no point in asking whether God 'could have' created such a thing. That line is covered under the more general rule of impossibilities, such as round-square, or stones so heavy that He can't lift them.

More later. :)
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24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Dante
 
is God perfect?

I hope it isn't blasphemous to say this, but I don't know. However, I hope to meet Him one day and find out.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Fesarius
Apr 20 2005, 12:10 PM
I don't think it is easy to imagine a human-like creature capable of love but not capable of sin. What would such a create be like? How would its mental state and moral condition differ from ours?

If such a creature cannot be decribed without contradiction, then there is no point in asking whether God 'could have' created such a thing. That line is covered under the more general rule of impossibilities, such as round-square, or stones so heavy that He can't lift them.

I do not believe a contradiction is needed to describe such a creature. Love and sin are not mutually exclusive. People who love can commit sin, people who do not love can abstain from committing sin and the other way around. One does not need sin in order to love.

I can image a creature who’s moral code is in total alignment with that of the teachings of some religion (which ever one is right) and I can imagine a creature where this moral code is so ingrained in their mind that they follow it with out exception. At the same time I can see the same creature loving as we do.


Quote:
 
I think to seriously engage the topic would entail pulling out a book or two by Augustine, at least.
I would be willing to read anything you post on the subject.
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Fesarius
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Dandandat,

I will suggest a couple of books if you like. :)

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I do not believe a contradiction is needed to describe such a creature. Love and sin are not mutually exclusive. People who love can commit sin, people who do not love can abstain from committing sin and the other way around. One does not need sin in order to love.

Hmmm. I think we part company here (in a nice way, of course). I don't accept the premise that there are people who cannot love, or that there are people who can abstain from committing sin.

Dante,

I think that this topic is too complex for a message Board. This goes back to my posts on the one-dimensionality of words on a screen, rather than a phone call, or (better yet) face-to-face conversation.

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Love and sin are not mutually exclusive.

There's the rub, I think. In the sense I have been outlining, I think they are, indeed, mutally exclusive. Someone in error (for instance, a sincere and honest Zoroastrian, who believes in the good god AND the bad god) need not be seen as 'in sin,' in the same way.

BTW, here are some salient texts of Augustine:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/augustine/textstrans.html

I will poke around in here and let you know about others. I have a great biography of Augustine (by Peter Brown) in my collection.

More on Augustine--

I think, without bearing into the texts themselves to check, that these three may cover the topic we have been discussing:

* Augustine: Confessions
* Christian Doctrine (de doctrina christiana):
* On True Religion (de vera religione)

The second two are shorter, if you don't want to launch into a full reading of the Confessions (which, BTW, is a classic of western civilization).
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Fesarius
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Quote:
 
Along with your last question, I have a few others that came to mind when I read your explanation.

Why couldn’t a perfect god create creatures (people and angles) that where incapable of sin, but still capable of the love he sought. All powerful does mean all powerful does it not? So this task should have been easy for him. I can easily imagine such a creature so why couldn’t he make one?

Then their is the idea that god wanted a creature that was able to choice between him and sin. Which is the form of love he sought - with out the temptation of sin he could not be sure if the creature truly loved him. But then why has there been so much talk of punishment of those who commit sin and/or do not love (worship) god? How is setting up a system of punishment for not following god any different then god just hot wiring man to not commit sin? In both cases he is influencing our decision making to not commit sin. so wither I do not commit sin because I simply cant (that’s how god made it) or because I fear the punishment from god for doing so the out come is the same. I do not commit sin because of my free will but because of god.

Dandandat,

You are making Fes work today. ;) I will attempt to answer some of your questions.

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Then their is the idea that god wanted a creature that was able to choice between him and sin.

Yes. This seems like where I was going with free will. To speak of love without invoking free will makes it sound like gravitation (i.e. a mindless force).

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Which is the form of love he sought?

What attributes of God do human creatures share? Personality (person-ness), will, intellect, rationality--these lead to a love like God's love, but alternatively can lead to sin. My dog can't sin. :)

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with out the temptation of sin he could not be sure if the creature truly loved him.

I don't know--it is beyond everyone, I think, to speak of what God 'could' know. But it would not be the same, if we loved God only like my dog 'loves' me. The love of God is more like that between spouses--Charles Williams spoke of this as 'romantic theology', as did Dante. Christ is the Bridegroom of the Church, He doesn't take it out for a walk! ;)

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But then why has there been so much talk of punishment of those who commit sin and/or do not love (worship) god?

I don't know. The treats of Punishment seems to me better explained as less developed moral thinking, from earlier in civilization and culture.

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How is setting up a system of punishment for not following god any different then god just hot wiring man to not commit sin?

I can't answer that, since I don't think the Punishment system makes sense.

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In both cases he is influencing our decision making to not commit sin.

Much of moral thinking has, I think, more to do with "how to get along with people" than with "how to get along with God." Bad things will happen in society, if people steal, murder, etc. Those bad things will not occur because God will make them occur, any more than God could be said to be breaking windows and looting during a riot.
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psyfi
psyfi
Dandandat
Apr 20 2005, 09:23 AM
Fesarius
Apr 20 2005, 10:17 AM
Yes, and let's not forget that while God is perfect, people are not. :)

If god is perfect, why did he make imperfect people? :ftmth:

What do you mean by 'prefect?" If God had created beings incapable of making any choices contrary to His Will, good, little obedient robots, would that be perfection? I think some specification of what 'the perfect human being' would be is necessary before the question can really be considered. The bible says he made us in His Image. I get the feeling that one of His Attributes is decision-making ability.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
psyfi
Apr 20 2005, 12:58 PM
Dandandat
Apr 20 2005, 09:23 AM
Fesarius
Apr 20 2005, 10:17 AM
Yes, and let's not forget that while God is perfect, people are not. :)

If god is perfect, why did he make imperfect people? :ftmth:

What do you mean by 'prefect?" If God had created beings incapable of making any choices contrary to His Will, good, little obedient robots, would that be perfection? I think some specification of what 'the perfect human being' would be is necessary before the question can really be considered. The bible says he made us in His Image. I get the feeling that one of His Attributes is decision-making ability.

I was not the one to start the conversation on perfect, so I can not answer as to what perfect meant when it was said. All I know is that according to Fes god is perfect and we are not.

Since I can assume that Fes does not think god is a "good, little obedient robot" then that is not his idea of what is perfect.
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Fesarius
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Quote:
 
Since I can assume that Fes does not think god is a "good, little obedient robot" then that is not his idea of what is perfect.

Correct. I will allow for varying interpretations of what 'perfect' means relative to God, especially in light of this discussion. The last thing I wish to do is to preach my dogma on a message Board.

IMO, humans are not perfect, and will not be perfect until we meet our Creator. To think otherwise is to elevate ourselves to the level of God, and this is not something I am willing to do. Of course, this assumes you believe that God exists, which I know is not a valid assumption for all posters.
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psyfi
psyfi
Fesarius
Apr 20 2005, 12:22 PM
Quote:
 
Since I can assume that Fes does not think god is a "good, little obedient robot" then that is not his idea of what is perfect.

Correct. I will allow for varying interpretations of what 'perfect' means relative to God, especially in light of this discussion. The last thing I wish to do is to preach my dogma on a message Board.

IMO, humans are not perfect, and will not be perfect until we meet our Creator. To think otherwise is to elevate ourselves to the level of God, and this is not something I am willing to do. Of course, this assumes you believe that God exists, which I know is not a valid assumption for all posters.

It is odd that you would make the claim that human beings are imperfect and yet not be willing to specify what you mean by this. Usually, when this claim is made, it is because the person stating this has noted that human beings have and continue to violate God's Will for them. The question therefore becomes: Would a perfect creation be able to violate God's Will? If so, then we are perfectly created regardless of the mess we have made. If a perfect creation is not able to violate God's will, then robots we would be.

You refer to meeting our Creator. Are you saying that what makes us imperfect is that we have not 'met' our Creator? Clearly, many mystics have had such experiences. Do they come away perfect? I am not understanding.


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Fesarius
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It is odd that you would make the claim that human beings are imperfect and yet not be willing to specify what you mean by this.

Psyfi,

It is not odd to choose what one wishes to discuss or not to discuss on a message Board. I might be willing to elaborate elsewhere, however.

I think I wrote that I would not attempt to prove God being perfect, or perhaps I did not elaborate upon my thoughts in a way that was clear. I don't mind opining that humans beings are imperfect, but it is so obvious to me that I did not think it needed an explanation.

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You refer to meeting our Creator. Are you saying that what makes us imperfect is that we have not 'met' our Creator?

I meant that in meeting our Creator, we would eventually have the answers to everything we cannot answer as fallible human beings. If (as Christians) we are becoming more like Christ every day, it means it is a process--one that is continual and temporal--and that process will not be complete (since it is limited temporally) until we have met our Creator. It is then that we will *know* our God. (BTW, my responses are beginning to sound preachy. I think we may need to correspond via another medium soon.)

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Clearly, many mystics have had such experiences.

Perhaps clearly to you, but not to me. I have no evidence that this has occurred. And before I am willing to accept that it has, I would need more than someone asserting 'clearly.' Or is this something that you believe one can 'know' by accepting it on faith?
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Fesarius
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Looking back over the posts I have written in this thread, I realize now that I ought to have written 'I believe that God is perfect.' Perhaps this would have been a clearer way to have stated it.
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