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is God perfect?
Topic Started: Apr 20 2005, 09:23 AM (732 Views)
Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Fesarius
Apr 20 2005, 10:17 AM
Yes, and let's not forget that while God is perfect, people are not. :)

If god is perfect, why did he make imperfect people? :ftmth:
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gvok
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My understanding of Catholic teaching is that God created man with free will. It was through man's free will that he (in a sense) chose to be imperfect.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
I'm glad I didn't post my first thoughts--Dandandat would have thought we (Gvok and I) were conspiring. I will give Dante's question further thought.
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gvok
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^^^

I'm interested to hear what your response will be.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
As am I. :)
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Swidden
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Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
Dandandat
Apr 20 2005, 07:23 AM
Fesarius
Apr 20 2005, 10:17 AM
Yes, and let's not forget that while God is perfect, people are not. :)

If god is perfect, why did he make imperfect people? :ftmth:

Let's see:

Take one all powerful, omniscient, omnipresent, infinite being and the only entity in creation. You have just spent the last seven days (time being relative to such a being) creating an entire universe. You need entertainment. Do you create more beings like yourself, or do you create, for want of a better term, a bunch monkeys (primate variants)?

God does indeed have a sense of humor.

For more on a humorous perspective (potentially blasphemous) of God, I recommend the book "God: The Ultimate Autobiography", co-written with his (holy) ghost writer, Jeremy Paschal.
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Swidden
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gvok
Apr 20 2005, 07:31 AM
My understanding of Catholic teaching is that God created man with free will. It was through man's free will that he (in a sense) chose to be imperfect.

We were tricked man! Blasted, lying, talking snake tricked us!
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
gvok
Apr 20 2005, 10:31 AM
My understanding of Catholic teaching is that God created man with free will. It was through man's free will that he (in a sense) chose to be imperfect.

Why would any one chose to be imperfect?

And where does this idea come form? Was it god who told us that it is perfect and that the only reason we are not perfect is because it gave us free will and we chose it?

So if for a second we entertain the idea that it is not perfect one can entertain the idea that it only says it is, and that it did make a mistake when it made us imperfect, and only said he gave us free will and we chose to be imperfect.

How do we reconcile the idea that he is no lying to us, we really don’t have an objective medium to go to?
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gvok
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First of all, I am not a theologian. I'm just providing the information you asked for to the extent I understand it. I certainly am not interested in a debate on this issue.

That said, the Book of Genesis is the primary source on this subject. My understanding is that God created man with free will and gave man a paradise to live in (i.e., Eden) provided he abide by certain rules. Part of this agreement required man to live in ignorance. But man chose to escape this ignorance by eating the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge. In doing so man broke the agreement with God and became imperfect.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
Dandandat,

How can I answer this without going off on another tangent? Tell you what--maybe this thread can be split off into another so as not to offend those that wish solely to speak about the new Pope. :)

Quote:
 
If god is perfect, why did he make imperfect people?

Here is my answer, FWIW. :)

Over the years, I have heard several answers-- to wit, "For practice". I like this one: "For amusement" (kind of like what Swidden mentioned above). Strictly speaking, this is a theological question, since it has to do with our ideas about God, but philosophy is okay as the larger context.

Do you mean this (rephrasing): "Why would the God described by the Scriptures of Christians and Jews create imperfect people?" (I don't know enough about Islam to include them herein.) This was covered in one of my medieval philosophy classes.

--God created creatures to love him, and for him to love.

--A creature incapable of sin, lacking free will in the classical sense, might also not be capable of love, or specifically of godlike love (see: C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves).

--Knowing this, God created creatures (people and angels) who were capable of sin. Ergo, sin happened.

--Love also happened. And it continues to happen. However, in the Christian view, sin will eventually cease while love will continue for eternity.

In pursuing this line, it might also be well to think about what perfections man had before the fall (pre-lapsarian). I think Augustine talks about this somewhere, I'm not sure about earlier writers.

An open question would be: If unfallen man had a perfect will, and knowledge of God, and other knowledge (for instance, he would have to understand what the commandment meant, etc.), then why would he desire and choose sin?

Quote:
 
Why would any one chose to be imperfect?

I will need more time to think this one over. :)
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
gvok
Apr 20 2005, 11:10 AM
First of all, I am not a theologian.  I'm just providing the information you asked for to the extent I understand it.  I certainly am not interested in a debate on this issue.

I wasn’t asking you specifically.



Fesarius
 
How can I answer this without going off on another tangent? Tell you what--maybe this thread can be split off into another so as not to offend those that wish solely to speak about the new Pope.
Done
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gvok
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Dandandat
Apr 20 2005, 10:26 AM
gvok
Apr 20 2005, 11:10 AM
First of all, I am not a theologian.  I'm just providing the information you asked for to the extent I understand it.  I certainly am not interested in a debate on this issue.

I wasn’t asking you specifically.

Sure, I know. I just wanted to add that disclaimer as a context in which to read the rest of my response.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
And it is important for me to add that there are questions for which I have no answer. We are told (scripturally) that there are mysteries, and I believe that these will one day become known to us. My take on this is that the 'one day' is speaking eternally rather than temporally, meaning that I cannot know it, or explain it, in the finite realm. Additionally, I can cite a plethora of scriptural pericopes for which I have little or no understanding. One day, I do hope to have a complete understanding. :)
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
No.

(Even if he/she/it/they happened to actually exist.)
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Fesarius
 
Here is my answer, FWIW.

Over the years, I have heard several answers-- to wit, "For practice". I like this one: "For amusement" (kind of like what Swidden mentioned above). Strictly speaking, this is a theological question, since it has to do with our ideas about God, but philosophy is okay as the larger context.

Do you mean this (rephrasing): "Why would the God described by the Scriptures of Christians and Jews create imperfect people?" (I don't know enough about Islam to include them herein.) This was covered in one of my medieval philosophy classes.

--God created creatures to love him, and for him to love.

--A creature incapable of sin, lacking free will in the classical sense, might also not be capable of love, or specifically of godlike love (see: C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves).

--Knowing this, God created creatures (people and angels) who were capable of sin. Ergo, sin happened.

--Love also happened. And it continues to happen. However, in the Christian view, sin will eventually cease while love will continue for eternity.

In pursuing this line, it might also be well to think about what perfections man had before the fall (pre-lapsarian). I think Augustine talks about this somewhere, I'm not sure about earlier writers.

An open question would be: If unfallen man had a perfect will, and knowledge of God, and other knowledge (for instance, he would have to understand what the commandment meant, etc.), then why would he desire and choose sin?


Along with your last question, I have a few others that came to mind when I read your explanation.

Why couldn’t a perfect god create creatures (people and angles) that where incapable of sin, but still capable of the love he sought. All powerful does mean all powerful does it not? So this task should have been easy for him. I can easily imagine such a creature so why couldn’t he make one?

Then their is the idea that god wanted a creature that was able to choice between him and sin. Which is the form of love he sought - with out the temptation of sin he could not be sure if the creature truly loved him. But then why has there been so much talk of punishment of those who commit sin and/or do not love (worship) god? How is setting up a system of punishment for not following god any different then god just hot wiring man to not commit sin? In both cases he is influencing our decision making to not commit sin. so wither I do not commit sin because I simply cant (that’s how god made it) or because I fear the punishment from god for doing so the out come is the same. I do not commit sin because of my free will but because of god.
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