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Central American (El Salvadore) Model => Iraq ?
Topic Started: Jan 26 2005, 12:59 PM (427 Views)
Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
somerled
Jan 27 2005, 04:12 AM
Wicheta : How do you out-terror the terrorists ? That was a question posed in the program I heard (did you hear it too ?) , the answer is Terror Squads who operate beyond the law and accepted conventions, who have total freedom and will stop at nothing and leave no witnesses.


Personal Response

First, thank you for responding to my question calmly. I have generally gotten accused of things I haven't done, called names, or told that I'm irrelevant when I ask questions some people don't want to (or can't) answer.

I disagree with you though. At best, if true, they would equal the terrorists because that is what the terrorists are currently doing themselves.

End of Personal Response
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Administrative Comment

Sorry Wichita - you gave me permission long ago to express my opinion administratively even if you were involved.

You said the following to Sisko.

Quote:
 
By all means, don't let facts get in the way of a good anti-American conspiracy. 


Now - you may have disagreed with the way he did (or did not) answer your question. But you fired the first flame with this comment. I don't blame Sisko for getting upset.

End Administrative Comment
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Wichita
Jan 27 2005, 08:17 AM
somerled
Jan 27 2005, 04:12 AM
Wicheta : How do you out-terror the terrorists ? That was a question posed in the program I heard (did you hear it too ?) , the answer is Terror Squads who operate beyond the law and accepted conventions, who have total freedom and will stop at nothing and leave no witnesses.


Personal Response

First, thank you for responding to my question calmly. I have generally gotten accused of things I haven't done, called names, or told that I'm irrelevant when I ask questions some people don't want to (or can't) answer.

I disagree with you though. At best, if true, they would equal the terrorists because that is what the terrorists are currently doing themselves.

End of Personal Response

Personal Response

Am I in the wrong place????

Somerled just condoned doing what Israel has been doing. Yet when Israel does it he claims that they are breaking international law and are cold blooded murderers.

You can't have it both ways Somerled.

Wichita - I know you disagreed with Somerled because you are seeing these types of squads as being a replacement for actions the army has taken - and I agree they cannot totally replace the armed forces. However, do you see a place for them to help fight terror in much the way the Mossad has done?
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Minuet
Jan 27 2005, 03:29 PM
Administrative Comment

Sorry Wichita - you gave me permission long ago to express my opinion administratively even if you were involved.

You said the following to Sisko.

Quote:
 
By all means, don't let facts get in the way of a good anti-American conspiracy. 


Now - you may have disagreed with the way he did (or did not) answer your question. But you fired the first flame with this comment. I don't blame Sisko for getting upset.

End Administrative Comment

Personal Response

Thank you, Minuet, for pointing out what I actually said instead of what Sisko is claiming I said.

Yes, I did say:

Quote:
 
By all means, don't let facts get in the way of a good anti-American conspiracy.


But let's not ignore the comment from Sisko I was responding to:

Quote:
 
Ask the people of East Timor, El Salvador, Panama, Chile, and several other nations we supported terrorism and dictators in.

We don't have the moral high ground on this issue. Except that most of the American public was unaware of these situations due to military/CIA censorship.


The "anti-Amercian conspiracy" I was responding to was contained in those comments. AT NO TIME did I call Sisko "anti-American"; I called the THEORY he was espousing to "anti-American". Discussing ideas, even negatively, is not outside the rules of SisterTrek.

As I pointed out, I lived in Satiago, Chile for a long time and got to know the people very well. I did hear one statement repeatedly that questioned American involvement in their country. People asked me over and over again why our President Carter disliked them. Why did they ask? Because Carter invoked trade sanctions against the Chilean people to protest Pinochet because of his human rights abuses.

Essentially Sisko is telling me that his source knows better than I or the people I got to know there how they should feel about the situation. I am deeply offended by that.


End of Personal Response
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Minuet
Jan 27 2005, 03:34 PM
Wichita - I know you disagreed with Somerled because you are seeing these types of squads as being a replacement for actions the army has taken - and I agree they cannot totally replace the armed forces. However, do you see a place for them to help fight terror in much the way the Mossad has done?

Personal Response

None of the above.

I don't buy into the whole theory that Somerled is trying to peddle.

The United States is being blasted for being in Iraq. The United States has said it will get out of Iraq and allow Iraqis to run the country the way they want. Now Somerled is blasting the United States - not Iraq - because of what the Iraqis may do when they are in control.

Think about the University of Toronto for a moment. Think of the number of students who have graduated from there in the last 40 years. Are you responsible for every crime that ANY of those students have ever committed in those 40 years? The theory being peddled here is "Yes, you are by virtue of the fact you are Canadian". I don't buy it.

End of Personal Response

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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet
Jan 27 2005, 10:34 AM
Wichita
Jan 27 2005, 08:17 AM
somerled
Jan 27 2005, 04:12 AM
Wicheta : How do you out-terror the terrorists ? That was a question posed in the program I heard (did you hear it too ?) , the answer is Terror Squads who operate beyond the law and accepted conventions, who have total freedom and will stop at nothing and leave no witnesses.


Personal Response

First, thank you for responding to my question calmly. I have generally gotten accused of things I haven't done, called names, or told that I'm irrelevant when I ask questions some people don't want to (or can't) answer.

I disagree with you though. At best, if true, they would equal the terrorists because that is what the terrorists are currently doing themselves.

End of Personal Response

Personal Response

Am I in the wrong place????

Somerled just condoned doing what Israel has been doing. Yet when Israel does it he claims that they are breaking international law and are cold blooded murderers.

You can't have it both ways Somerled.

Wichita - I know you disagreed with Somerled because you are seeing these types of squads as being a replacement for actions the army has taken - and I agree they cannot totally replace the armed forces. However, do you see a place for them to help fight terror in much the way the Mossad has done?

You have taken what I said -
Quote:
 
The disturbing thing is that this model involves the USA sponsored and supported and controlled puppet government by being even more brutal than and out-terrorising the insurgents.
Key methods were disappearances, torture, assassinations and brutalisation - murder (death) squads who acted outside the law and were a law onto themselves , and who very quickly became indescriminate in who they attacked or butchered . If this is truely what the Pentagon and Whitehouse and CIA (etc) are contemplating for Iraq after the elections then this is a problem and more than just disturbing.

So much for the moral high ground.

So who else is finds this train of thought by the movers and shakers in the Whitehouse, Washington and Pentagon worrying ?

and tried to twist it to justify the unjustifiable. A very disturbing insite into your psychi and thought processes. Show me how what I said indicated I supported this kind of action.

Your admission
Quote:
 

Somerled just condoned doing what Israel has been doing. Yet when Israel does it he claims that they are breaking international law and are cold blooded murderers.
is very disturbing, in that you think it is perfectly OK. But that is a distraction and probably another thread if someone cares to start one on it.

So by way of clarification , so no one else can twist my words or meaning in any way :

I DO NOT CONDONE this type of military / paramilitary / police activity , and any regime (irrespective of who they are) who indulges in it can not be too strongly sanctioned.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Wichita
Jan 27 2005, 12:10 PM
Minuet
Jan 27 2005, 03:34 PM
Wichita - I know you disagreed with Somerled because you are seeing these types of squads as being a replacement for actions the army has taken - and I agree they cannot totally replace the armed forces. However, do you see a place for them to help fight terror in much the way the Mossad has done?

Personal Response

None of the above.

I don't buy into the whole theory that Somerled is trying to peddle.

The United States is being blasted for being in Iraq. The United States has said it will get out of Iraq and allow Iraqis to run the country the way they want. Now Somerled is blasting the United States - not Iraq - because of what the Iraqis may do when they are in control.

Think about the University of Toronto for a moment. Think of the number of students who have graduated from there in the last 40 years. Are you responsible for every crime that ANY of those students have ever committed in those 40 years? The theory being peddled here is "Yes, you are by virtue of the fact you are Canadian". I don't buy it.

End of Personal Response

So you would be perfectly happy with any future government in Iraq using the El Salvadore Model to get rid of ANY resistance or political opposition ? So how would that be an improvement over Saddam's regime (if even 10% of what is claimed about it is factual) ?

(Probably , well actually with the secret support of the CIA , or even under the control of the CIA , as has happened elsewhere .)

So long as superficially , the government is (on the surface) democratic , and it remains amenable to the wishes of the USA and of US owned companies.

I think I am reading your opinion correctly on this - correct me if I am wrong.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Somerled - I owe an apology on this thread. I misinterpreted Wichita's question and therefore your answer. I thought you were answering to how would you handle the terrorists - but that was not the intent of the question. The question was how would you interprete that the Americans are out terrorising the terrorists. Therefore your answers on this thread were not conflicting.

See - that's how an adult handles a mistake.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet
Jan 28 2005, 09:51 AM
Somerled - I owe an apology on this thread. I misinterpreted Wichita's question and therefore your answer. I thought you were answering to how would you handle the terrorists - but that was not the intent of the question. The question was how would you interprete that the Americans are out terrorising the terrorists. Therefore your answers on this thread were not conflicting.

See - that's how an adult handles a mistake.

OK - no damage done - as such a mistake is made.

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