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Catholic Church buries aborted babies
Topic Started: Jan 24 2005, 09:49 AM (1,282 Views)
Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
^^^ Talk to your politicians, not me.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
The Sisko
Jan 25 2005, 01:02 PM
I must object to this. For someone who will never be faced with such a difficult decision to label someone a murderer for something that is a difficult and often traumatic experience is offensive and inhumane. You have no idea what people go through who are faced with this decision and you are a self righteous prick for judging people in a situation you could not possibly know anything about. :realmad:

This is why I never discuss this issue because people like you resort to name calling and your holier than thou attitude. I am finished discussing this issue.

Stop making this emotional - you aren’t going to win the argument that way. Yes I fell bad for any one who has to make the decision to abort a fetus. I also agree with their right to do so and do not think they are murders.

Who have called names?

If you cant argue the issue I can respect that.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Minuet
Jan 25 2005, 01:08 PM
^^^ Talk to your politicians, not me.

You are ether misunderstand me or evading my argument. I will go with the first.


I am asking why is the abortion of a fetus is lawful (I am sure it is for the same reason in Canada as it is here, feel free to answer for just Canada if you like). Why (not morally – but specifically) has a woman been given the right to chose in both of our countries (or just canada if you would like)? I am not asking if its right or wrong, I am just asking why it was done.
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Minuet
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Dante - you cannot discuss why without discussing morals - that's why I told you to ask your politicians.

Whatever argument I provide, those who feel it is wrong will have a counterargument at the ready. I have no desire to get into a fight about this.

Besides - I'm still trying to figure out what this has to do with a Catholic church burying these corpses. :headscratch:
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Minuet
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Wichita
Jan 25 2005, 01:01 PM
Minuet
Jan 25 2005, 04:54 PM
Wichita - I am thoroughly confused with your response.

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Again, an divergence of opinion between tradition and individual choice... I don't agree that one necessarily is the same as the other. The Holocaust victims were of all ages, economic and educational backgrounds, and nationalities. I have no idea what they individually believed.


Explain to me why if you have no idea what they believed then what gives anyone the right to even try and define it after thier death.


Personal Response

Given that you were the one telling me what they believed, how could I possibly respond to that?

Also, Mormons are not attempting to define it. You are the one telling me that you know what they believed. :shrug:

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Like all churches - the members therein need to understand that they should only act upon those people who consent to be acted upon. This is the cause of the upset in Jewish circles over the baptisms.


:headscratch:


Wichita - I am basing my thoughts on what they believed on eyewitness accounts of thier relatives. Not a list of names.

I found another article on this issue. It is a news article (from AP) so it discusses the issue a lot more dispassionately then the other.

Proxy Baptisms.

The article is very clear about the fact that Mormon church leaders have requested the practice be stopped. I only fault the individuals who insist on continuing. In fact I found another interesting piece from a Mormon. When you read this piece of filth maybe you will further understand our outrage. (Please note that I understand that this is the work of one individual and does not reflect the feelings of the Mormon church at large - I just don't see how anyone could try to defend this)

Jews try again to dictate Mormon religious practices

If the people who continue this practice all see us Jews as "sheenies" then I rest my case regarding why I feel they are devaluing others.

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The people who stayed with the bodies after 9/11 did not insist that everyone be buried immediately. They only stayed with the bodies so that the Jewish bodies would not be neglected. The prayers and meditations were not said over any individual bodies and no one gave a Jewish burial to bodies that could not be identified.


Neither did the Catholics in the article we are discussing. In fact, it doesn't say that it was a Catholic ceremony. That has been an assumption we've been making.


You may have somewhat of a point here - however I was under the impression that Catholics (like Jews) have thier own cemetaries. It is rather difficult to imagine being buried in a Catholic cemetary without undergoing Catholic ritual.
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CV6 Enterprise
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The Sisko
Jan 25 2005, 12:02 PM
I must object to this. For someone who will never be faced with such a difficult decision to label someone a murderer for something that is a difficult and often traumatic experience is offensive and inhumane. You have no idea what people go through who are faced with this decision and you are a self righteous prick for judging people in a situation you could not possibly know anything about. :realmad:

This is why I never discuss this issue because people like you resort to name calling and your holier than thou attitude. I am finished discussing this issue.

Sisco. If you don't mind me asking, did you're wife have a miscarriage? If so, I'm very sorry. But, if you also don't mind me asking, did you bury the child with a funeral (cerimony, grave site)? I'm just wondering. If I had a child that died in the womb, I would probably give it a proper burial. Give it a little gravesite with a tombstone. I believe life begins at conception, so I believe that an unborn child deserves the dignity of being buried. I think that is why the church did this. These fetuses were probably going to be just thrown away. The Church, which also believe life begins at conception, wanted the children to have a proper burial. I'm not sure, but it seems like even the parents of the miscarried children were just going to have them tossed out. That I believe is inhuman, just throwing out the remains into the trash.

That's my opinion anyway
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
Yes, she did. And thank you. It wasn't easy to get over, and I unfortunately vented a lot of difficult emotions at various members here soon after it happened. I'm sure they remember.
Do you want all the grisly details? I saw the embryo, it was hardly formed at all when I saw it. My wife was in extraordinary pain, and I kept this information from her because she was going through a very difficult time, we waited almost an hour for the damn doctor to get there are administer painkillers while she was writhing in pain.
We didn't bury the embryo because the whole situation was very painful and difficult but we did have some closure by writing her a letter and sending it out to sea.

I think it's up to the individual to make the decision about how to deal with something like this. For someone to make the decision for me is offensive. Many cultures do not see the body as something that needs administering to, but the soul. It's just a perspective that is different than your own. That is the point I am trying to make.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Minuet
Jan 25 2005, 02:14 PM
Dante - you cannot discuss why without discussing morals - that's why I told you to ask your politicians.

Whatever argument I provide, those who feel it is wrong will have a counterargument at the ready. I have no desire to get into a fight about this.

Besides - I'm still trying to figure out what this has to do with a Catholic church burying these corpses. :headscratch:

Ok let me ask you this, what is the moral issue. Is it whether its right or wrong to kill a living fetus. Or is it whether or not a fetus is alive?

You don’t have to answer ether of those questions, just clarify for me which one of those issues is the basses of the pro-choice pro-life debate and abortion laws.
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CV6 Enterprise
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The Sisko
Jan 25 2005, 01:53 PM
Yes, she did. And thank you. It wasn't easy to get over, and I unfortunately vented a lot of difficult emotions at various members here soon after it happened. I'm sure they remember.
Do you want all the grisly details? I saw the embryo, it was hardly formed at all when I saw it. My wife was in extraordinary pain, and I kept this information from her because she was going through a very difficult time, we waited almost an hour for the damn doctor to get there are administer painkillers while she was writhing in pain.
We didn't bury the embryo because the whole situation was very painful and difficult but we did have some closure by writing her a letter and sending it out to sea.

I think it's up to the individual to make the decision about how to deal with something like this. For someone to make the decision for me is offensive. Many cultures do not see the body as something that needs administering to, but the soul. It's just a perspective that is different than your own. That is the point I am trying to make.

I understand. I was just saying what I would do in that situation. I'm sure it was very difficult for you and your wife. I understand that it should be up to the individual on what to do with the remains. I'm just trying to understand on why the church did what it did. I think that they did it because they believe it is right. Again, I'm very sorry for your loss.
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
Thanks again, and it was some time ago, so we have both dealt with it and moved on. But I do appreciate your sensitivity to it.

I understand that some people in the church think this is the right thing to do, but I suspect there are some who are doing this to draw attention to themselves and use it for thier own political ends, and I find that very offensive.

Now, what do I have to do to get you guys to post something about Star Trek?
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Minuet
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Dante - as I said - I don't want to be drawn into an abortion debate. You made a blanket statement about murder which was incorrect. I simply corrected it. The interpretation of the law is to be left up to the elected representatives. If you are unhappy with them then get politically active and kick them out. That is all I will say at this time.

My concern is with the issue of people thinking it is ok to push thier religion on others. To quote Sisko they may think they are doing the "right thing", but frankly no one can make that choice for anyone else. If you insist on bringing the abortion debate here all I can say is those who are against it for religious reasons are well within thier rights to refuse to have an abortion themselves. They are also free to attempt to change the law the traditional way - by which I mean getting enough elected representatives to vote thier way. Beyond that they have no business meddling in other people's affairs.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Minuet
Jan 25 2005, 03:59 PM
Dante - as I said - I don't want to be drawn into an abortion debate. You made a blanket statement about murder which was incorrect. I simply corrected it. The interpretation of the law is to be left up to the elected representatives. If you are unhappy with them then get politically active and kick them out. That is all I will say at this time.

Fine, but I would like to point out I am not unhappy with abortion laws. I agree with the right to have an abortion.


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My concern is with the issue of people thinking it is ok to push thier religion on others. To quote Sisko they may think they are doing the "right thing", but frankly no one can make that choice for anyone else. If you insist on bringing the abortion debate here all I can say is those who are against it for religious reasons are well within thier rights to refuse to have an abortion themselves. They are also free to attempt to change the law the traditional way - by which I mean getting enough elected representatives to vote thier way. Beyond that they have no business meddling in other people's affairs.
The reason I have brought the abortion debate into this is because I can not see how the acts of barring aborted fetuses (not miscarried fetuses) can be considered pushing religion on others. Who are the others? The fetus or the woman who got the abortion. Popular abortion justification is that the women have a right to decide whether their fetus is alive or not, giving them the power to abort it or keep it as they see fit while not having to deal with the ramifications of the punishment for killing a living being. But going along with that popular justification infers that the fetus is not alive if the women gets an abortion, and so if someone berries that fetus they are not pushing their religion on the fetus because it is not alive. Also I cant see how we can say they are pushing their beliefs on the woman who got the abortion, because to her the fetus was not any more alive then her toe nail clippings, so I cant see this any more credible then if we where to make an argument of people pushing their religion if they berried our toenail clippings.
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Minuet
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Put it this way Dante - If the woman believes the fetus was not "alive" then those who insist it was are pushing thier religion on her by forcing the burial. She may not see it as alive - but it was tissue from her body to do with as she pleases.

Maybe a good analogy would be the loss of a finger. If a religious group takes your finger and buries it against your wishes have they wronged you or not?? I say they have. It is yours to do with as you please.

If it is considered alive - then you have a completely different discussion which has to do with the legality of abortion. Again - I don't wish to get into that discussion as it is too volitile.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Minuet
Jan 25 2005, 05:08 PM
Put it this way Dante - If the woman believes the fetus was not "alive" then those who insist it was are pushing thier religion on her by forcing the burial. She may not see it as alive - but it was tissue from her body to do with as she pleases.

and she through it away, why does she care now? but besides that, she has already aborted it how are they pushing anything on her, she has already exercised her belief that the fetus was not alive and she got rid of it. I don’t see how she is effected by the us of her waste. Again I use the toe nail clippings, they are too tissue from your body to do with as you pleases. Would we be getting all hot and bothered if a group of wackos wanted to come and berry them? I think not.

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Maybe a good analogy would be the loss of a finger. If a religious group takes your finger and buries it against your wishes have they wronged you or not?? I say they have. It is yours to do with as you please.
That would be a good analogy for a miscarriage. A good analogy for abortion would be, if I cut off my own finger because I didn’t want it any more and then though it away, and then a religious group takes it and buries it, - what right do I have to say "hey that was my finger". What silliness would it be if I got upset over something I just cut off and got rid of because I didn’t want it anymore?


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If it is considered alive - then you have a completely different discussion which has to do with the legality of abortion. Again - I don't wish to get into that discussion as it is too volitile.
Agreed.
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Minuet
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No Dante - you cannot say she has already exercised her belief so now anyone else can do what they want. That is why I brought in the second analogy of what some Mormons have done with baptizing Jews.

If everyone went around exercising thier beliefs after the fact there would be chaos. What do you do with competing beliefs in burial and cremation. Some cultures believe in cremation. Others (like Jews) believe the body must be buried. Can someone come along and dig up a body to cremate because the family has already exercised thier belief that the body should be buried???? Of course not. No one has the right to override someone elses wishes with regards to thier family or thier beliefs. It is not right.

And remember, we are not only talking abortions here. The second article clearly stated that it also involved the corpses of miscarried babies.
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