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| Catholic Church buries aborted babies | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 24 2005, 09:49 AM (1,287 Views) | |
| Dr. Noah | Jan 24 2005, 12:26 PM Post #16 |
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Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
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There are several religions who do not require members to try to convert people. Some realize that this might drive people away more than it would actually appeal to people. The Buddhist faith is one of those. |
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| Minuet | Jan 24 2005, 12:53 PM Post #17 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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I see your point - and in many ways it is similar to the situation mentioned of war. However - in this particular situation I don't see how it applies. The clinic had records of who had done the abortions and presumably, why. Many people here may not like it but the fact of the matter is that only the parents have the right to decide how the body will be disposed of. Legally they did not give up thier rights when they had the abortion. Please note that I am not trying to argue the morality of abortion, which is a separate issue in my opinion. |
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| Wichita | Jan 24 2005, 01:32 PM Post #18 |
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The Adminstrator wRench
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Personal Response When I commented earlier, I hadn't really intended it to apply to the original story. (I actually hadn't read it then.) Now that I have, I disagree with you.
Based on the information in the story, the parents gave the decision about disposing of the body with the doctor who contracted with a mortuary who cremated them. If anybody violated the contract in passing on the ashes, it was the mortuary, not the church. Another fact that many people might not like is that it was a business deal. No doubt the doctor chose a mortuary who would give him the best deal on getting rid of the remains and the mortuary saw giving away the ashes as a cheap way for them to dispose of them as well. End of Personal Response |
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| Minuet | Jan 24 2005, 03:26 PM Post #19 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Both the mortuary and the church (and by that I only mean this individual church not the Roman Catholic church as a whole) are at fault. Why would the church even be asking to have the ashes if they are not from catholics. Wichita - One other point regarding the Jews who watched over the bodies after 9/11. I was thinking that I should explain exactly what would have been done. No last rites of any kind would have been given. Jewish law stipulates that a body should not be left alone until after burial. I believe that what you were refering to in your post was that volunteers stepped forward to stay with the bodies until things could be sorted out. In doing so they ensured that the Jewish bodies were not alone, as well as any others. If anything it should be a comfort to all families that thier loved ones were not left alone. Nothing of any religious nature would have actually been done to the individual bodies. |
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| Wichita | Jan 24 2005, 04:04 PM Post #20 |
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The Adminstrator wRench
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Personal Response And yet the article says they have done nothing illegal. Given that this is the 8th year this particular church has done this and there's never been a controversy before, the clinic has apparently never followed up on what was done with the remains before.
Do you honestly believe that Catholics only care about Catholics?
No, according to the people who actually did it, they sat, read scriptures, said individual prayers, and meditated. Now, if you go back to the article we are discussing, it does NOT say that rituals were done over any individual bodies there either. In fact, it doesn't say the ashes were given a Catholic burial - it says the ashes are buried by Catholics. Again, I am not offended by either what was done at the WTC or what the article says is being done here. End of Personal Response |
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| Dandandat | Jan 24 2005, 04:36 PM Post #21 |
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Time to put something here
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Who cares? How can we say the fetuses was a Christian, Jew, Muslim or atheist - it’s a fetus it never developed enough to pick its religious affiliation or form beliefs. The only argument that can be made is to use the mothers religion, but the mother has already claimed the fetus as not alive, so to her it has no religious affiliation because it is not alive. So who cares if a bunch of people want to berry something that has already been deemed an unwanted clump of cells by the only person why could ever have a problem with it in the first place (the mother – and her family). Would I care if a group of people wanted to take my garbage off of my front stoop and give it a spiritual burying? No why would I. An aborted fetus is nothing different to a mother who has aborted it – if it where she would not have aborted it. What kind of crap is this, [sarcasm] “most intimate sorrow”[/sarcasm] ? Where is the sorrow coming from, are these woman mentally disturbed? Do you feel sorry when you clip your toenails and through the clips away? An aborted fetuses by those who get an abortion should be nothing more then that a clump of unwanted cells. If they feel other wise the only other alternative is to believe the fetuses is alive, and if it is then the mother and the doctor are murderers. They cant have it both ways, ether the fetuses is a clump of cells no different then clipped toe nails or its alive and disserves the rights of being alive. |
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| Dr. Noah | Jan 24 2005, 04:40 PM Post #22 |
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Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
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Unless they were using it as a political attention getting device to sway public opinion on the subject, then I think some people would mind. |
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| Dandandat | Jan 24 2005, 04:47 PM Post #23 |
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Time to put something here
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Why? if a group of people want to use my toenail clippings as a political statement why would I care about it? Why would I feel most intimate sorrow? They are just a bunch of toenails I through away? |
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| Dr. Noah | Jan 24 2005, 04:52 PM Post #24 |
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Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
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Something that is often a traumatic experience for people is not appropriate for using it to make a political statement, especially when you are using it against those very same people. |
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| Dandandat | Jan 24 2005, 04:55 PM Post #25 |
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Time to put something here
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Why is it a traumatic experience? Why would those very same people care enough about it for it to be able to be used against them? How is burying something I through away using it against me? |
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| Dr. Noah | Jan 24 2005, 05:01 PM Post #26 |
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Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
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Either you don't know anyone who has gone through this experience, or you would rather judge someone than empathize with them. Either way, I am finished discussing this with you. You obviously don't want to understand. |
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| CV6 Enterprise | Jan 24 2005, 05:07 PM Post #27 |
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Captain
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That's a good point. I don't know if where exactly you're coming from. But if these people aborted it, they obviosly don't care about the baby, so this Cathiloc church steps in and gives the unborn baby a proper burial, unlike they would have gotten had they just been thrown in the dumb |
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| Dandandat | Jan 24 2005, 05:19 PM Post #28 |
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Time to put something here
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That’s a copout, and for your information I do know someone personally who has gone through this experience, (I also agree with abortion lest anyone thinks I am trying to push my beliefs on any one) Why is it a copout? because you are trying to avoid my reasoning by trying to tell me I don’t understand, that is no argument. It only says that you have no way to dispute me. It seems to me – it is these woman and doctors who are the ones being political motivated to feel their most intimate sorrow. At lest I can see why a group of religious people feel it is right to berry the fetuses that they believe where alive, all politics aside it is what they feel is right. On the other hand these mothers and doctors feel (and have asserted) that these fetuses where nothing more then unwanted clumps of cells (cancer), to now feel sorrow about them, or to have any problems with others rummaging through their garbage can only be political motivated. The argument goes that abortion is not wrong because a mother has the right to decide if the fetus growing inside her is alive or if it is a clump of cells that are not alive. Those who choose to have an abortion are not murders because that they have not killed their fetus because they have decided it was never alive. To after the fact feel sorrow about it can only mean that they feel their fetus was alive(there is no middle ground), making them murders. They want it both ways, they want to declarer that their unwanted fetus is nothing more then a clump of unwanted cells yet they also want to have an emotional attachment to it. How can you have an emotional attachment to a clump of wanted cells – how can you have an emotional attachment to your toe nail clippings (with out being crazy of course). If you don’t want to debate this because you don't have a good response, that I can respect. but don’t tell me I don’t understand the isue. |
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| Minuet | Jan 24 2005, 05:20 PM Post #29 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Update on story Ok, I decided to research an update on this story. Let's leave aside the controversy of abortion for just a moment. Dante - do your feelings change if the church was also making unauthorized burials of miscarried children? According to this article they buried seven bags of remains. No one can claim that these were just unwanted clumps of cells. Wichita - I was undecided whether to link this next article. I hope you are not offended by my posting this, but this is something that was a big controversy when it was first discovered. It involves the "baptisms" of Jewish victims of the holocaust by members of the Mormon Church. Mormon Baptisms How do you feel about this? |
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| Dandandat | Jan 24 2005, 05:26 PM Post #30 |
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Time to put something here
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Yes that does change this particular situation, but not the argument I was making about abortion women. Miscarriage mothers have all the right to feel any way they please on the subject with out being hypocrits |
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