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Was it a hate crime?
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Topic Started: Jan 16 2005, 02:37 PM (771 Views)
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Minuet
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Jan 24 2005, 10:07 AM
Post #61
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Hey Somerled - here is a key quote from your first link (I notice all of your links actually go to the same site)
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This listing should be interpreted with care. We only report on negative events here, because these are areas that need improvement.
Not included in either list are reports of the actions of millions of devout believers of all faiths, who, day after day, help the hungry, homeless, broken and hurting throughout the world.
By the way - you still haven't answered to my charge that you only see christian indoctrination, but ignore muslim indoctrination. Why??????
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CV6 Enterprise
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Jan 24 2005, 10:07 AM
Post #62
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Captain
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- somerled
- Jan 24 2005, 09:00 AM
- Dwayne
- Jan 24 2005, 06:50 AM
- somerled
- Jan 24 2005, 02:15 AM
And so did christian religious leaders, who also regularly tortured, garrotted and burnt at the stake a great many innocent people at the same time.
This is 2005, not 1005.
Examples Witch burnings in the 1700s . The Irish troubles. The Baulkan troubles. (Kosovo Conflict) You want racially and religiously motivated hate endulged in by fundamentalist christians , based on religion or race, all need do is look in your own backyard. The KKK and RELIGIOUS CONFLICT & INTOLERANCE IN THE NEWS , has a large number of links that give examples of religious biggotry. (And no I haven't more than sampled the links - many more recent extracts given refer to american christian intolerance and even incitements to hate crimes against non-christians and other minorities). Or to see how these might be motivated , pick up that bible you are so fond of and take a look at what it says : Intolerance by God in the Old TestamentReligious intolerance in the Old Testament)Religious intolerance in the New TestamentReligious exclusivity in the (New Testament
Do preist preach the killing of people that don't believe the same stuff? Get back to us when the some pastor starts telling his congregation to kill Muslims, or Jews, or abortion supportors
When a Chirtian does kill, say an abortion provider, he is quickly condemed by the pro-life movement. Saying that the gay lifestyle is not moral is not intollerant, it is expressing an opinion. But I guess according to you, Christians can't have opinions.
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Minuet
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Jan 24 2005, 10:10 AM
Post #63
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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- somerled
- Jan 24 2005, 10:05 AM
- Minuet
- Jan 24 2005, 10:01 AM
- somerled
- Jan 23 2005, 10:46 PM
- Minuet
- Jan 23 2005, 05:31 PM
You know what I don't understand. How come it is so easy for Somerled to see Roman Catholics as indoctrinated, but is so blind to indoctrination of Muslims. What more proof do we need of Somerled's bigotry. Roman Catholics are indoctrinated. Jews are religious zealots. But Muslims are merely misunderstood. So why are we reading an article about a possibly religiously motivated crime in the US that is likely perpetuated by these misunderstood Muslims and yet I have never once seen a similar story where a Catholic or Jew murdered a Muslim in the US.
Doesn't get the same press ? Paranoia about muslims ? People looking for evidence to prove muslims are evil ? You pick.
 Your comebacks are so pathetic What reason would the press have to suppress a story like that? The history of the press shows that they would jump on any story that would vilify a Westerner or a Jew. For evidence just see the unbalanced coverage Israel gets. Also see the coverage that profiling at airports has recieved. You cannot even search a Muslim at the airport without getting mega coverage about how prejudiced we all are against Muslims. The press would not suppress anything.
In the USA , it could cause a buyer strike and damage their profitability.
Did you read what I said
I just said that they do report in an unbalanced manner - IN FAVOUR OF MUSLIMS.
Your supposed boycotts and strikes have not occured. Why don't you try to come up with a real argument instead of just saying the first thing that comes off the top of your head?
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somerled
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Jan 24 2005, 10:12 AM
Post #64
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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- Minuet
- Jan 24 2005, 10:10 AM
- somerled
- Jan 24 2005, 10:05 AM
- Minuet
- Jan 24 2005, 10:01 AM
- somerled
- Jan 23 2005, 10:46 PM
- Minuet
- Jan 23 2005, 05:31 PM
You know what I don't understand. How come it is so easy for Somerled to see Roman Catholics as indoctrinated, but is so blind to indoctrination of Muslims. What more proof do we need of Somerled's bigotry. Roman Catholics are indoctrinated. Jews are religious zealots. But Muslims are merely misunderstood. So why are we reading an article about a possibly religiously motivated crime in the US that is likely perpetuated by these misunderstood Muslims and yet I have never once seen a similar story where a Catholic or Jew murdered a Muslim in the US.
Doesn't get the same press ? Paranoia about muslims ? People looking for evidence to prove muslims are evil ? You pick.
 Your comebacks are so pathetic What reason would the press have to suppress a story like that? The history of the press shows that they would jump on any story that would vilify a Westerner or a Jew. For evidence just see the unbalanced coverage Israel gets. Also see the coverage that profiling at airports has recieved. You cannot even search a Muslim at the airport without getting mega coverage about how prejudiced we all are against Muslims. The press would not suppress anything.
In the USA , it could cause a buyer strike and damage their profitability.
Did you read what I said I just said that they do report in an unbalanced manner - IN FAVOUR OF MUSLIMS. Your supposed boycotts and strikes have not occured. Why don't you try to come up with a real argument instead of just saying the first thing that comes off the top of your head?
Do they ?
Well , maybe in Canada , but it seems this is not the case elsewhere .
Oh by the way , have the local constabulary made any progress in their investigations of the "incident" , and have they made any comments ?
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Minuet
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Jan 24 2005, 10:19 AM
Post #65
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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- Quote:
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Well , maybe in Canada , but it seems this is not the case elsewhere .
Prove this statement. I lived in the US I know that what I said is as true in the States (even in Texas ) as it is in Canada.
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CV6 Enterprise
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Jan 24 2005, 10:22 AM
Post #66
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Captain
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- somerled
- Jan 24 2005, 09:12 AM
- Minuet
- Jan 24 2005, 10:10 AM
- somerled
- Jan 24 2005, 10:05 AM
- Minuet
- Jan 24 2005, 10:01 AM
- somerled
- Jan 23 2005, 10:46 PM
- Minuet
- Jan 23 2005, 05:31 PM
You know what I don't understand. How come it is so easy for Somerled to see Roman Catholics as indoctrinated, but is so blind to indoctrination of Muslims. What more proof do we need of Somerled's bigotry. Roman Catholics are indoctrinated. Jews are religious zealots. But Muslims are merely misunderstood. So why are we reading an article about a possibly religiously motivated crime in the US that is likely perpetuated by these misunderstood Muslims and yet I have never once seen a similar story where a Catholic or Jew murdered a Muslim in the US.
Doesn't get the same press ? Paranoia about muslims ? People looking for evidence to prove muslims are evil ? You pick.
 Your comebacks are so pathetic What reason would the press have to suppress a story like that? The history of the press shows that they would jump on any story that would vilify a Westerner or a Jew. For evidence just see the unbalanced coverage Israel gets. Also see the coverage that profiling at airports has recieved. You cannot even search a Muslim at the airport without getting mega coverage about how prejudiced we all are against Muslims. The press would not suppress anything.
In the USA , it could cause a buyer strike and damage their profitability.
Did you read what I said I just said that they do report in an unbalanced manner - IN FAVOUR OF MUSLIMS. Your supposed boycotts and strikes have not occured. Why don't you try to come up with a real argument instead of just saying the first thing that comes off the top of your head?
Do they ? Well , maybe in Canada , but it seems this is not the case elsewhere . Oh by the way , have the local constabulary made any progress in their investigations of the "incident" , and have they made any comments ?
It's not going on here in America. Minuet is right. We can't check out Arabs at airports, yet they pat down Ted Kennedy. Now, who is the more likely terrorist? A young Arab male, or Ted Kennedy? I'm not a big fan of Kennedy, but still, as much as Kennedy doesn't like Bush, I doubt he'll hijack a plane and fly it into the White House.
in the words of Mike Reagan, the son of the great president Ronald Reagan, 'Political Correctnes is going to kill us.' I have no problem with racial profiling, if there is a murder suspect, that is reported to be, say, Hispanic, why would the police spend time looking at non-Hispanics. Same thing with terrorists. There is a much, much higher chance of a terrorist being a young Arab male than an overwieght, former alcholic, Irish Catholic liberal senator from Boston.
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Jan 24 2005, 10:54 AM
Post #67
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UberAdmiral
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- somerled
- Jan 24 2005, 09:05 AM
- Minuet
- Jan 24 2005, 10:01 AM
- somerled
- Jan 23 2005, 10:46 PM
- Minuet
- Jan 23 2005, 05:31 PM
You know what I don't understand. How come it is so easy for Somerled to see Roman Catholics as indoctrinated, but is so blind to indoctrination of Muslims. What more proof do we need of Somerled's bigotry. Roman Catholics are indoctrinated. Jews are religious zealots. But Muslims are merely misunderstood. So why are we reading an article about a possibly religiously motivated crime in the US that is likely perpetuated by these misunderstood Muslims and yet I have never once seen a similar story where a Catholic or Jew murdered a Muslim in the US.
Doesn't get the same press ? Paranoia about muslims ? People looking for evidence to prove muslims are evil ? You pick.
 Your comebacks are so pathetic What reason would the press have to suppress a story like that? The history of the press shows that they would jump on any story that would vilify a Westerner or a Jew. For evidence just see the unbalanced coverage Israel gets. Also see the coverage that profiling at airports has recieved. You cannot even search a Muslim at the airport without getting mega coverage about how prejudiced we all are against Muslims. The press would not suppress anything.
In the USA , it could cause a buyer strike and damage their profitability.
No, it wouldn't.
There is no such thing as a "buyer strike" when news is readily available on the Internet. Why wouldn't news of something like this be all over the net (like those BEHEADINGS were)?
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Jan 24 2005, 10:55 AM
Post #68
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UberAdmiral
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- somerled
- Jan 24 2005, 09:12 AM
Do they ?
Well , maybe in Canada , but it seems this is not the case elsewhere .
Oh by the way , have the local constabulary made any progress in their investigations of the "incident" , and have they made any comments ?
It doesn't happen here either.
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somerled
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Jan 24 2005, 12:31 PM
Post #69
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Maybe you missed this - Quote:
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Oh by the way , have the local constabulary made any progress in their investigations of the "incident" , and have they made any comments ?
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Jan 24 2005, 02:33 PM
Post #70
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UberAdmiral
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Yes, they have made comments:
http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=e...2Y3dnFlZUVFeXky
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Dwayne
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Jan 24 2005, 07:40 PM
Post #71
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Profanity deleted by Hoss
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- somerled
- Jan 24 2005, 10:00 AM
Is that your best?
Not a single one comes close to the examples I was able to quickly find on the internet.
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somerled
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Jan 25 2005, 04:06 AM
Post #72
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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- Admiralbill_gomec
- Jan 24 2005, 02:33 PM
Thanks , but you could have posted a full extract of their comments as ryou have to be registered and that can take 24 hrs.
Others may also be interested in seeing the views of the local cops on this crime too, and it would inform the debate that is happening here and is currently all based on speculation and heresay.
Here it is :
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Key to solving crime lies in 'victimology'
A vendetta carried across an ocean. A quadruple killing sparked by arguments over religion in a chat room. A group of robbers bent on stealing an outwardly modest family's hidden wealth. Revenge exacted against a man who sought to convert fellow Egyptians to Christianity.
There are many theories surrounding the killing of a Jersey City family found bound and stabbed to death in their home Jan. 14, and just as many investigative avenues.
But the key to solving the crime, according to a pair of experts on criminal profiling, likely lies in the science of "victimology," the study of victims.
The identities of who killed Hossam Armanious, 47, his wife, Amal Garas, 37, and their daughters, Sylvia, 15, and Monica, 8, lie somewhere in the victims' past, the experts say. And it's up to investigators to meticulously comb through even the smallest details of the Coptic Orthodox family's lives to uncover the motive behind one of the most shocking homicide cases in Hudson County history.
"The key to all of this is the victimology," said retired FBI profiler Gregg McCrary, an author and a expert on behavioral criminology. "You want to drill down on that family. Their e-mails and other correspondences. Phone records. Bank records. Everything."
"This sounds like a victim-targeted crime, not a random crime of opportunity, and with that there's going to be some link between the family and their attackers," he added. "The answer is going to be in there somewhere."
Police have released few details about the grisly slayings and are investigating several possible motives based on religion and robbery. Hudson County Prosecutor Edward DeFazio said Friday that the victimology of the case is very important to solving it.
"I think that there's some sort of financial motivation," DeFazio said. "But you cannot discount any motive at this point, including the religious one. ... It doesn't have the earmarks of robbery being the primary motive."
A 'horrible' crime scene
Although authorities have not released the details of what some officials have termed a "terrible" and "horrible" crime scene, what is known about the case speaks volumes, according to the profilers.
Each family member's bound body was found in a different room of the Oakland Avenue home. Each bled to death from stab wounds to the neck and had suffered other knife wounds. There was no cash in the house, and someone had rifled through drawers and a purse. A "significant" amount of jewelry, however, was left untouched.
Some members of the Coptic Orthodox community, as well as some of Garas' relatives, quickly blamed Islamic fundamentalists for the slayings. Tensions between Copts and Muslims have since run high in Jersey City.
Meanwhile, on Friday, author Robert Spencer, who has been a vocal critic of radical Islam, posted an item on a Web site he runs, jihadwatch.org, that claimed Hossam Armanious was very active in trying to get Muslims to convert to Christianity.
Prosecutors said they have no evidence to support the theory that the family was killed for religions reasons.
Police have cautioned that robbery is a possibility and have asked the public to refrain from speculating. They pointed to the fact that money was taken.
"Just because somebody took money does not mean it is a robbery-based killing," said Louis B. Schlesinger, professor of forensic psychology at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in Manhattan. "Taking money after some sort of ritualistic killing is not unusual."
Other elements of the publicly released information also point away from robbery, McCrary said.
"If we are talking a robbery motive, it would be very uncommon to have such extreme violence attached to it," he said. "Killing everybody in a family during a robbery is not common."
Another factor pointing away from robbery is that all of the family members died from knife wounds, which McCrary said is "extremely rare" in a robbery. Most robbers, both experts said, prefer the use of firearms because guns allow robbers an easy tool with which to control a situation.
"Knife killing is very close and very personal," McCrary said. "And to do it four times is very cold."
DeFazio, the prosecutor, seemed to agree with the profilers' assessment of the robbery-as-the-motive scenario, but would not rule it out.
"Clearly, I would agree that on the face of it there is more than just a robbery there," he said. "I agree that it is rare that a robbery goes this bad, but it does happen."
Why was this family selected?
Both Schlesinger and McCrary would like to see all the evidence in the case so they could develop a profile of the killers. And they have several key questions. Foremost among them is, what caused the Armanious family to go from your average family to victims of a gruesome homicide?
Other questions the pair mentioned are: Did the killers bring a "murder kit" with them to the house, including binds, gags and the weapon? If they did, this would all but eliminate any chance of the murders being a crime of opportunity.
Were there family members brought to different rooms for torture? How long were the killers in the house? Is there a pattern of home invasions in the area? DeFazio said there is not.
But at the heart of the case should be a study of the victims' lives, Schlesinger and McCrary said. Their business, social and familial relationships. Their financial holdings, including whether any family member may have bragged about money. There is some indication, authorities have said, that the family was wealthier than was apparent from their modest home and blue-collar jobs.
"When you look at the crime itself, what was the primary target? The family," McCrary said. "Where was the greatest effort expended? It was expended on murdering the family. ... It looks far more predatory than an emotional crime would."
McCrary and Schlesinger also caution against a "threshold diagnosis." First impressions of crimes, they said, can often prove wrong.
"Superficially, it has the earmarks of a hate crime," Schlesinger said. "In terms of victimology, the first thing that comes to mind is revenge. ... But you can't just go on superficial things.
DeFazio said the FBI is working on the case with county and city investigators. The crime scene evidence is, in fact, being processed by the FBI, not the New Jersey State Police, he said.
The prosecutor also said he would like very much for a profiler to help detectives in their investigation.
Checking computer records
Family members reported that Hossam Armanious was a participant in chat rooms about religion and would often engage in forceful debates about Islam and Christianity. Friends said he received death threats because of the discussions, and police are looking into computer records.
Although it is an avenue that police should thoroughly examine, McCrary said people who make threats usually don't carry them out.
"You have to separate those who make threats from those who pose threats," he said. "Those that make threats usually don't pose them. Those that pose threats usually don't make them. ... But certainly you have to pay attention to death threats and the religious chat room."
There are other scenarios besides religion, money or revenge, Schlesinger said, but none is very compelling.
"It could be someone who killed because of a psychosis, but that is very unlikely," he said. "It could be something of a sexual motivation, but that's unlikely too."
The lack of money in the home and the presence of jewelry have sparked debate about a possible robbery gone bad. There was no forced entry into the home. And no religious symbols - including tattoos each Armanious family member had on their wrists - were desecrated.
"The place was not broken into, but do not equate that to them being invited guests either," DeFazio said. "And you have robberies or burglaries where jewelry isn't taken sometimes, because the robbers don't want it to be traced."
The killers may have been interrupted during the crime and may not have had the time to complete it, the profilers said.
"Maybe they were going to burn down the house or destroy the symbols," McCrary said. "We don't know the dynamic of how it unfolded. ... Maybe they wanted to make it look like what a robbery would look like."
Or the robbery could have been to steer investigators away from the real motive. Likewise, the religious symbols could have been left alone to mask the religious reason behind the crime.
"Often crime scenes are staged to look like something else," Schlesinger said. "It's a very difficult crime for the police to deal with."
DeFazio, who said the slayings were not random and carried out by "a number of people," conceded the possibility that investigators might meet a dead end.
"Is there a chance? Yes. But I don't want to think that way," he said. "Unfortunately, whoever did this got a 72-hour head start. ... We're all thinking and we're all trying to get answers.
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Dwayne
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Jan 25 2005, 07:24 AM
Post #73
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Profanity deleted by Hoss
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- somerled
- Jan 25 2005, 04:06 AM
Others may also be interested in seeing the views of the local cops on this crime too, and it would inform the debate that is happening here and is currently all based on speculation and heresay.
The only person here that needs more informed debate is you. The article you provided does not add to the debate at all, it does not provide any new information, and epitomizes speculation and hearsay.
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somerled
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Jan 25 2005, 09:13 AM
Post #74
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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- Dwayne
- Jan 25 2005, 07:24 AM
- somerled
- Jan 25 2005, 04:06 AM
Others may also be interested in seeing the views of the local cops on this crime too, and it would inform the debate that is happening here and is currently all based on speculation and heresay.
The only person here that needs more informed debate is you. The article you provided does not add to the debate at all, it does not provide any new information, and epitomizes speculation and hearsay.
Is what you have been saying factually based or based on evidence that has come to light regarding the case, or just another application of your normal dwaynisms to this - ie heresay, speculation and really just a load islamophobic bullsh1t ?
Where is the actual evidence that it was indeed a religion motivated crime ?
Have the investigating cops said this is actual motive and all other lines of investigation have come to naught ?
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Jan 25 2005, 09:26 AM
Post #75
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UberAdmiral
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Could it be some of your Islamophilic bull? Why do you suck up to these terrorist scum? Because they hate Americans?
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