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The Israel/Palestine Troubles
Topic Started: Jan 16 2005, 12:12 AM (1,190 Views)
24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Somerled,

You having Wichita substitute the words is still you not making any declarative statement in regards to Israel. Since you are still dancing around the issues, I will ask you some more direct questions....

1) Do you dislike or hate Jews? Not some guy down the street who you dislike (who happens to be Jewish). No, do you dislike or hate people because they are Jewish?

2) Do you think Israel has a right to defend itself against Palestinian terrorists?

3) Do you condone the acts of terrorism that are perpetuated against Israel by the Palestinian suicide bombers?

4) Do you think Israelis have a right to live and work in peace without having to worry about Palestinian terrorists killing them while they take a bus ride to work (or perform any other activity)?
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
Oh! Let's see how my precognitive powers are today!

1. He likes Jews just fine as long as they are not acting in criminal behavior or using silly religious notions to claim land that doesn't belong to them.

2. It is up to Israel to make the first step and stop the hostile actions.

3. They're just defending themselves.

4. Israel must give up all land even if that means that they have to live in the ocean. They cannot retaliate in any way.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Doc - I like 24's and Wichita's approach.

Let's give the man a chance to answer without flaming him. Commenting on his actual answers is fair game, however.

It would be nice if I got DIRECT answers to the two questions I posed in my last posting in this thread along with the answers to 24's question.
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
Minuet
Jan 17 2005, 10:52 PM
It would be nice if I got DIRECT answers to the two questions I posed in my last posting in this thread along with the answers to 24's question.

Seriously, I think you're asking way too much.
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Minuet
Jan 18 2005, 03:52 AM
Doc - I like 24's and Wichita's approach.


Personal Response

Give the credit to 24 - not me. She's rational - I'm mad (in the lunatic sense).

Somerled ...

Somerled
 
Well, setting up fortified settlements on land that is disputed , and attempting to annex it in the doing is provocative and incites attacks . How would you respond if someone decided to annex your backyard and build their home there and to exclude you from accessing your own property and destroying it's utility to you ?


... based on this comment, it would appear that you believe the people killed on buses and in restaurants deserve to be murdered - INCLUDING the children. Also - again based on this comment - it appear that you believe that the Israelis are completely at fault.

Quote:
 
How would you respond if someone decided to annex your backyard and build their home there and to exclude you from accessing your own property and destroying it's utility to you ?


How would I feel? Given that the person first had launched an unprovoked attack against me meant to, at the minimum, throw me out of my house, and, at the maximum, kill me, I think that I would be wise for me to either get assurances that he would do it again (Edit: I mean "NOT do it again") or to create a buffer zone between him and me to keep him from doing it again. Prior to the attack by the person against me, the land was his. Only when he attempted to take my land - and lost - did it become in dispute.

The unprovoked wars launched against Israel - most recently in 1967 and 1973 - are well documented. The land was not just taken on a whim by Israelis - it was won in battle from an enemy who has vowed to push them off their own land (the land given to them in the UN resolution).

Are you saying that massing the armies of several nations on three borders of Israel is NOT provocative? :rolleyes:

Quote:
 
Road map - I am not convinced Israel want it proceed. Not talking to Palestinian PM is indicative of that stance. Who has the most to loose from the success of the Road Map ?


Here you clearly state that you believe only Israel is at fault.

In the Oslo Accords, the Israeli government was said to have given away too much. Nonetheless, the number of suicide bombings against Israel went UP afterwards. I favor the Road Map, but I don't doubt that the number of bombings went up after that as well.

"Who has the most to "loose" from the success of the Road Map?"

Anyone who has actually read the Road Map knows the Palestinian leadership has the most to lose. Rather than embezzle billions in aid money meant for the Palestinian people as did Arafat, they will have to publicly accept Israel and start working to improve the lives of Palestinians rather than planning how to kill Israeli children.

What Israeli has to lose is their fear of getting on busses or entering crowded restaurants. When I was growing up, we didn't hear about difficulties between The Palestinians and Israelis. Egypt was often the name most mentioned.

Why don't we hear about Egypt now? In the late 60's or early 70's, Egypt launched an unprovoked, full scale invasion of Israel (in violation of the UN resolution that created Israel). Israel soundly defeated them and, in addition to beating them back from their own borders, took the entire Sinai away from them. If you look at a 1972 map of Egypt, you will see the area I'm talking about.

Egypt was appalled and wanted the territory back. In a historic agreement, Israel returned the oil-rich land (Israel is one of the few countries in the Middle East with virtually no oil reserves.) in exchange for Egypt's agreement to not militarize the area. All Egypt had to do was agree not to station tanks on the border of Israel and recognize Israel's right to exist and they got their land back.

Now, despite the ample evidence that Egypt is heavily involved in the smuggling of arms to the Palestinians, they have not attacked Isreal directly and the two have lived in peace for over 25 years. Israel has a HISTORY of being willing to negotiate with anyone willing to agree to their existence.

End of Personal Response
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
^^^
Great response Wichita!

:kiss:

If I were straight...
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Quote:
 
Give the credit to 24 - not me. She's rational - I'm mad (in the lunatic sense).


After that last answer you deserve much credit. I am the one who would write the response of a raving lunatic. I have been holding myself back in this thread.

You have clearly and rationally put into words the reasons I find Somerled prejudiced and bigoted. He keeps asking for proof of where he has shown bigotry and here it is for all to see.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Wichita
Jan 18 2005, 08:04 AM
Minuet
Jan 18 2005, 03:52 AM
Doc - I like 24's and Wichita's approach.


Personal Response

Give the credit to 24 - not me. She's rational - I'm mad (in the lunatic sense).

Somerled ...

Somerled
 
Well, setting up fortified settlements on land that is disputed , and attempting to annex it in the doing is provocative and incites attacks . How would you respond if someone decided to annex your backyard and build their home there and to exclude you from accessing your own property and destroying it's utility to you ?


... based on this comment, it would appear that you believe the people killed on buses and in restaurants deserve to be murdered - INCLUDING the children. Also - again based on this comment - it appear that you believe that the Israelis are completely at fault.

Quote:
 
How would you respond if someone decided to annex your backyard and build their home there and to exclude you from accessing your own property and destroying it's utility to you ?


How would I feel? Given that the person first had launched an unprovoked attack against me meant to, at the minimum, throw me out of my house, and, at the maximum, kill me, I think that I would be wise for me to either get assurances that he would do it again (Edit: I mean "NOT do it again") or to create a buffer zone between him and me to keep him from doing it again. Prior to the attack by the person against me, the land was his. Only when he attempted to take my land - and lost - did it become in dispute.

The unprovoked wars launched against Israel - most recently in 1967 and 1973 - are well documented. The land was not just taken on a whim by Israelis - it was won in battle from an enemy who has vowed to push them off their own land (the land given to them in the UN resolution).

Are you saying that massing the armies of several nations on three borders of Israel is NOT provocative? :rolleyes:

Quote:
 
Road map - I am not convinced Israel want it proceed. Not talking to Palestinian PM is indicative of that stance. Who has the most to loose from the success of the Road Map ?


Here you clearly state that you believe only Israel is at fault.

In the Oslo Accords, the Israeli government was said to have given away too much. Nonetheless, the number of suicide bombings against Israel went UP afterwards. I favor the Road Map, but I don't doubt that the number of bombings went up after that as well.

"Who has the most to "loose" from the success of the Road Map?"

Anyone who has actually read the Road Map knows the Palestinian leadership has the most to lose. Rather than embezzle billions in aid money meant for the Palestinian people as did Arafat, they will have to publicly accept Israel and start working to improve the lives of Palestinians rather than planning how to kill Israeli children.

What Israeli has to lose is their fear of getting on busses or entering crowded restaurants. When I was growing up, we didn't hear about difficulties between The Palestinians and Israelis. Egypt was often the name most mentioned.

Why don't we hear about Egypt now? In the late 60's or early 70's, Egypt launched an unprovoked, full scale invasion of Israel (in violation of the UN resolution that created Israel). Israel soundly defeated them and, in addition to beating them back from their own borders, took the entire Sinai away from them. If you look at a 1972 map of Egypt, you will see the area I'm talking about.

Egypt was appalled and wanted the territory back. In a historic agreement, Israel returned the oil-rich land (Israel is one of the few countries in the Middle East with virtually no oil reserves.) in exchange for Egypt's agreement to not militarize the area. All Egypt had to do was agree not to station tanks on the border of Israel and recognize Israel's right to exist and they got their land back.

Now, despite the ample evidence that Egypt is heavily involved in the smuggling of arms to the Palestinians, they have not attacked Isreal directly and the two have lived in peace for over 25 years. Israel has a HISTORY of being willing to negotiate with anyone willing to agree to their existence.

End of Personal Response

Quote:
 
... based on this comment, it would appear that you believe the people killed on buses and in restaurants deserve to be murdered - INCLUDING the children.  
How do you figure that ?

Quote:
 
Also - again based on this comment - it appear that you believe that the Israelis are completely at fault.
Not at all , but annexing territory and building settlements therein is very provocative , and doesn't help .

Quote:
 
The unprovoked wars launched against Israel - most recently in 1967 and 1973 - are well documented.
40ish and 30ish years ago - times have changed - time to move on and put the past where it should be .

Quote:
 
land given to them in the UN resolution
Granted, however this was probably not a good idea , since it meant dispossessing people to do it , but that can not be undone now (nearly 60 years after the event) .

Quote:
 
I'm mad (in the lunatic sense).
Mmmmm .... :rolleyes:

The Palestinian PM has a mandate of over 70% (BBC radio source, this morning) of the Palestinians who want him to persue peace with Israel, the hardliners (including Hamas) can no longer say they represent the will of the Palestinians , this has got be a positive development , despite the recousetrant behaviour of a small minority. But one way ceasefires don't work unless they are reciprocated by the other party , Israel must reciprocate or any attempts he makes at pulling the hardliners into line and bringing about a ceasefire on their part will never work. Blind Freddy can see that.

Quote:
 
Anyone who has actually read the Road Map knows the Palestinian leadership has the most to lose.
If that's your opinion . I'm not convinced you are correct.

Question :
How often have buses full of children actually been targeted and blown up ?
I'm not being obtuse . I know it has happened , but have the feel there might only be a few instances where this happened , maybe once . This doesn't excuse it but the frequency will put into perspective , since seem to playing that card for all it worth.

Quote:
 
Israel has a HISTORY of being willing to negotiate with anyone willing to agree to their existence.
My understanding is that this is the case wrt to current Palestinian government and the majority of Palestinians as well. Ref: BBC Radio interview. Check it out at here at Deutsche Welle Newslink segment or BBC Features, British News, Analysis segment , I can't recall which, where a poll was taken of the opinions of Palestinians and a selection interviewed.
Follow the links and you'll be able to hear the piece too. (it'll be repeated regularly all week unless some outstanding event happens .)

Re
Quote:
 
How would I feel?
question - I'm betting many here would apply forceable , perhaps lethal, means to evict the squatters.

Minuet : feel free show how what I have said is anything other than reasonable.

Where is everyone else , could it be they are not game to declare themselves , or that they simply don't care about this issue , or that they have no opinions on it ?

Doctortobe : Being obtuse I see. Re your points - see above.

I'm stepping back now - discuss it amongst yourselves - I'll rejoin the thread later.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
Quote:
 
question - I'm betting many here would apply forceable , perhaps lethal, means to evict the squatters


How is this a question?

Quote:
 
QUOTE 
... based on this comment, it would appear that you believe the people killed on buses and in restaurants deserve to be murdered - INCLUDING the children.   

How do you figure that ?

Why don't you simply say, NO ONE DESERVES TO BE MURDERED BY A GUY WITH DYNAMITE STRAPPED TO HIS CHEST? Is it so hard, tap dancing boy?

Quote:
 
Not at all , but annexing territory and building settlements therein is very provocative , and doesn't help .

But it is perfectly legal. They won the territory in war. THEY can do with it as they please.

Quote:
 
QUOTE 
The unprovoked wars launched against Israel - most recently in 1967 and 1973 - are well documented.

40ish and 30ish years ago - times have changed - time to move on and put the past where it should be .

No, it still is happening today. I don't see Israelis strapping TNT and ten pounds of nails to their chests and blowing themselves up in a crowd of Palestinians, do you? Time to move on? Tell the Palestinians, who still list the destruction of Israel as one of the points of the PLO charter.

Quote:
 
Where is everyone else , could it be they are not game to declare themselves , or that they simply don't care about this issue , or that they have no opinions on it ?

I'm right here, and have been throughout this thread.

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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
24thcenstfan
Jan 17 2005, 10:03 PM
Somerled,

You having Wichita substitute the words is still you not making any declarative statement in regards to Israel.  Since you are still dancing around the issues, I will ask you some more direct questions....

1) Do you dislike or hate Jews?  Not some guy down the street who you dislike (who happens to be Jewish).  No, do you dislike or hate people because they are Jewish?

2) Do you think Israel has a right to defend itself against Palestinian terrorists?

3) Do you condone the acts of terrorism that are perpetuated against Israel by the Palestinian suicide bombers?

4)  Do you think Israelis have a right to live and work in peace without having to worry about Palestinian terrorists killing them while they take a bus ride to work (or perform any other activity)?

So - I am on trial now ? :realmad: I will not be answering further questions like these .

1. I treat jewish people I happen to encounter how I find them , their jewishness is not an issue , it is totally irrelevent. If they volunteer their religion or I am told , this has no subequent effect what so ever on how I interact with them.

2 & 3 & 4. Read what I have already said . I am not going to spoon feed you people.

:banghead:

I will return if or when something worthwhile is contributed to this thread and I will not be playing your little games.
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24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
somerled
Jan 18 2005, 03:33 PM
24thcenstfan
Jan 17 2005, 10:03 PM
Somerled,

You having Wichita substitute the words is still you not making any declarative statement in regards to Israel.  Since you are still dancing around the issues, I will ask you some more direct questions....

1) Do you dislike or hate Jews?   Not some guy down the street who you dislike (who happens to be Jewish).  No, do you dislike or hate people because they are Jewish?

2) Do you think Israel has a right to defend itself against Palestinian terrorists?

3) Do you condone the acts of terrorism that are perpetuated against Israel by the Palestinian suicide bombers?

4)  Do you think Israelis have a right to live and work in peace without having to worry about Palestinian terrorists killing them while they take a bus ride to work (or perform any other activity)?

So - I am on trial now ? :realmad: I will not be answering further questions like these .

1. I treat jewish people I happen to encounter how I find them , their jewishness is not an issue , it is totally irrelevent. If they volunteer their religion or I am told , this has no subequent effect what so ever on how I interact with them.

2 & 3 & 4. Read what I have already said . I am not going to spoon feed you people.

:banghead:

I will return if or when something worthwhile is contributed to this thread and I will not be playing your little games.

Such a drama queen. :drama: How else are we going to know your position, unless we ask you direct questions? You don’t actually “reveal” what your exact position is when you discuss the issues in a broad sense.

I see you are still having a hard time declaring your position on the questions I asked you. I think I have proved my point though. :yes: I won’t be asking you any more questions in this fashion because I know you won’t provide a direct answer.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
Seems that you're the one playing the games, Junior... she asked you a few simple questions, and they were valid ones based on your past posts considering Israel, Jews, and even Americans.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
Off-topic--

Somerled,

Do you have any children?
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Amazing. I played by his rules. I discussed my POV without getting vicious or doing any name calling.

From what I could see no one else engaged in flaming. But still, even though we played by his rules, Somerled sees nothing useful in this topic. :shrug:

Personally I found it very illuminating.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
I also found this topic enlightening.
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