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| The Israel/Palestine Troubles | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 16 2005, 12:12 AM (1,182 Views) | |
| somerled | Jan 16 2005, 12:12 AM Post #1 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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What is your position (I am not asking for your government's position but your personal views and position) on this on going conflict ? |
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| Wichita | Jan 16 2005, 04:42 AM Post #2 |
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The Adminstrator wRench
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Personal Response I'm going to do something different here, Somerled. Regardless of what has happened in the region, I can find absolutely no justification for a suicide bomber to disguise themselves as an Israeli, walk into an area they know will be crowded with children, and detonate the bomb they are carrying for the purpose of killing those children just because they are Jews. I can find no justification for anyone supporting such behavior. Until I hear/see you unequivocally condemn the murder of Israeli children, I am simply going to "ping" your request for opinions on the topic. If you cannot condemn the murder of innocent children, you have no real interest in gathering honest opinions IMO. End of Personal Response |
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| Wichita | Jan 16 2005, 04:43 AM Post #3 |
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The Adminstrator wRench
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Personal Response . End of Personal Response |
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| somerled | Jan 16 2005, 09:27 AM Post #4 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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The can be no good reason to kill innocents, and never be a reason to kill or injure children, at any time. I have never supported terrorism or suicide bombings and your inference is a total misrepresentation of my views. Now if you want to gag any discussion on the Israeli/Palestinian troubles then that just proves what I said earlier. Time to get rid of the taboo this matter and to talk about it, even if there are some here who are against discussing it for personal reasons. If people in a place like this can't bring themselves to discuss it, what chance is of ever being a lasting peace between these two stubburn peoples anytime in the forseeable future. I will add here . I at least asked for these opinions . What do you have to fear from people expressing their views on this very important issue ? What's the point of Politics and World Events Forum if one of the most important issues of the last 60 years , and one which indirectly effects all of us , is out of bounds here ? |
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| 24thcenstfan | Jan 16 2005, 10:52 AM Post #5 |
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
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I agree with you completely. Oftentimes I see people shy away from even discussing any issue whatsoever involving the Palestinian/Israeli conflict because they are afraid to be labeled. I don’t understand this “ping” mentioned by Wichita. If this is a personal choice of hers not to reply to this thread, then that is her right. If it is a decision made for the collective whole then I vehemently disagree/protest. I will comment on the issue. 1) I believe that the Palestinian people should have their own state. 2) I believe that the Israeli people should move out of occupied disputed territories such as the West Bank and immediately allow the Palestinian people to establish their own state. 3) I believe that the Israeli people should be able to live in peace without having a homicide bomber commit acts of murder/terror on the Israeli people. I personally do not condone the Palestinian terrorists. There is no excuse for their behavior. They would probably have the support of the world (for self-determination) if they had stuck to non-violent means. 4) I believe that the Israeli people have a right to defend themselves against terrorism. 5) I disagree with Sharon’s decision to cut off ties with Abbas. Abbas is the new PA leader and as such should be granted (from the beginning) good faith that Abbas will start to make the necessary steps to reign in the terrorists. If after a while Abbas does not make an effort then Sharon should consider cutting ties. I am not optimistic that the Palestinian/Israel conflict will ever be resolved. Each side have possibly escalated this conflict (through retaliation) to a point of no return. You throw in emotion running high, different religions, tense politics and you get a difficult situation. |
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| Minuet | Jan 16 2005, 11:24 AM Post #6 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Hi 24. Wichita's remarks have more to do with the starter of this thread and his recent out and out bigoted remarks and misuse of a Jewish symbol. I am choosing to respond to you alone on this thread because I refuse to discuss this issue with that individual. I am stating here that I do not want Somerled to respond to any of my remarks on this thread in any way. With you, 24 I can have a reasonable discussion.
Despite what others here might try to say my position is, I actually agree completely with this statement.
Now if only the rest of the world wouldn't say Sharon is acting unilateraly when he tries to do this. :rolleyes: Of course there is one area that the Israelies will not give up. Jerusalem will never be divided again. I personally am open to hearing suggestions, but none that involve Jews being separated from thier holy places.
And I would add they would have a state of thier own if they had stuck to non-violent means. They were given one by the UN and history shows that more Palestinian land ended up in Jordan then in Israel.
What can I say
I understand how you feel. I have an article here from The Jerusalem Post that at least explains things from the Israeli point of view. It is difficult to say whether or not Sharon should give it more time when people are dying.
A good sum up of the situation. What more can I say? |
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| 24thcenstfan | Jan 16 2005, 01:18 PM Post #7 |
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
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I thought about that later after I posted, and I don’t know what kind of equitable solution the two sides can come to on Jerusalem. However, Israel may have to give up jurisdictional control over areas that contain Jewish holy sites if they happen to fall within the boundaries of Palestine (once the state is established). Or, the Palestinian people would have to agree to let the holy site be treated similarly to how we or other countries treat embassies (as the property or extension of another country). Israel would still be able to maintain control of Jerusalem (what will remain a highly contested city due to the Dome of the Rock and the Western Wall of the Temple Mount...just two sites that are holy). Similarly to how Israel has granted access to Palestinians to the city of Jerusalem, the Palestinians would have to grant access to any holy sites for Jews (unencumbered) in Palestinian areas. At this point, I think a joint Palestinian/Israeli state with Jerusalem as the capital is probably out of the question (not feasible). Or maybe just Jerusalem being ran jointly/administratively by both Israel and Palestine. Is there a precedent for a city being ran by two nations? I am all for the option that promotes stability. One nation having control over Jerusalem is the most obvious answer right now (to me at least). Israel would be my prefered choice to maintain control over the city. The PA is too unstable right now, and even after a Palestinian state is established, there will be no stability in Palestine for many years to come. Now me supporting Israel's right to manintain control over the city doesn't mean that they necessarily have any more legitimate claim over the city than the Palestinian people do. My point is, I don't know who does. Does anyone really know anymore who has "more" of a claim over the city?
I wanted to add to my comments about Israel’s right to defense. As I said before, the Israeli people do have a right to defend themselves against terrorism. However, was it necessary or prudent to begin construction of a wall around the West Bank? The wall seemed to exacerbate the conflict. Is it at least providing protection to the Israeli people?
For some reason, I am getting a “cannot find server” error when I attempt to access the article. |
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| doctortobe | Jan 16 2005, 01:24 PM Post #8 |
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Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
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On who controls Jerusalem, the question should be asked. Which side would be more likely to destroy the others religious sites out of spite? |
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| Wichita | Jan 16 2005, 03:08 PM Post #9 |
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The Adminstrator wRench
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Personal Response It absolutely was meant to be only a personal response. In this thread, Somerled repeatedly accused me of twisting his words, but yet refuses to say how I supposedly did so. I may have misunderstood something he said there, but since he refuses to discuss the issue of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in that thread, I have no idea what it was. The "ping" thing, BTW, was something I saw used on another board. It is pretty much the same as Garrovick's use of N/T on startrek.com. It sounded like a good idea at 3:30 a.m. on one hour of sleep, but, eleven hours later (on the same one hour of sleep), I probably wouldn't do it now. Ironically, although my intent was trying to limit accusations from Somerled about my twisting his words, he did a fair job of twisting mine instead.
Nowhere I have I said that I want to gag any discussion. In fact, as I have indicated, it was Somerled who refused to discuss this same issue in the other thread.
Given the dozens of times we have discussed this issue already, this comment is just silly. :rolleyes:
Again, I didn't say either of these things. He is the one who bailed on the discussion in the other thread - not I. Agreed. I think Jordan should give back the land they took from the Palestinians as well, but I'm not holding my breath.
In theory, I agree and even think that eventually it has to happen. However, until the Palestinians guarantee the safety of Israeli citizens from suicide bombers, I don't feel I could ask the Israelis to do something that I would be leery of doing myself.
Were it not for their violent ways (and those of their Arab neighbors) the Palestinian state would have probably celebrated their 50th anniversary already. Democracies hate slums because it breed unrest. They enact social programs to try and help eliminate them. Dictators love slums for the same reason - they breed unrest. By keeping people in them, they have can keep a "pot boiling" to be let loose when it serves their purpose. Israeli deserves to be able to live in peace.
Despite the murder of the six Israeli citizens, I too hoped that Sharon could turn the other cheek (again feeling a bit hypocritical because I don't know that I could). However, then I heard that 46 Palestinian election worker resigned in protest of what went on last Sunday. While they don't disagree that Abbas would have won, they say only about 30% of Palestinians - not 60% as he claims - voted at all. Sharon may be feeling that Abbas isn't going to be able to control the terrorists no matter how long he waits.
Oddly, the Palestinian people are saying that it provides them safety as well. The number of homicide bombing attacks have gone down in the areas where the wall has been erected. Since it is more difficult for them to get in to where they want to go, there is a greater chance for them to be stopped. As a result, bombers have moved on to areas with no wall and the business owner (including Palestinian ones) in the old areas are saying that they now operate their businesses and live in relative peace. It sounds like what happened in the "no-fly zones" in northern Iraq under Sadaam Hussein. One last thought - without an absolute guarantee of multinational control of Jerusalem, I don't think the Israelis should give it up. I have visions of their sacred sites being blown up like the Buddas in Afghanistan. End of Personal Response |
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| Minuet | Jan 16 2005, 03:17 PM Post #10 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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And the sad part of that is that Israel never gets recognition for the fact that the Dome of the Rock sits right on top of Judaism's holiest site - yet they allow Arab control and have not laid a scratch on the building. |
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| Dwayne | Jan 16 2005, 04:23 PM Post #11 |
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Profanity deleted by Hoss
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I cannot disagree at all. If Jews and Christian actually treated Muslim the way they claim we do, or even worse, if Jews and Christian treated Muslim the way Jihadist Muslims treat Jews, Christian and moderate Muslims, the Dome of the Rock would be a smoking hole, Muslims would be routinely decapitated, Islamic Holy sites would be destroyed, their children would be kidnapped and brought to western nations ... I could go on ... |
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| Swidden | Jan 16 2005, 05:55 PM Post #12 |
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Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
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Like others here I too believe that the Palestinians deserve to have their own state. Israel should withdraw from the occupied territories. I understand the logic that Israel is using in stepping back from Abbas already, but this is part of the problem. When the two sides start talking, someone (usually on the terrorist side) pushes the exact button they know will shut down discussion. Israel in not talking at all is giving Hamas and others exactly what they want. Jerusalem is something both sides want, and probably neither should have. Make it its own nation state like the Vatican with rule carried out by a joint council. That may sound like a simplistic solution, and I don't pretend to think even for one minute that it would be the hardest thing to get anyone in the region to swallow, but I see it as the only viable solution. Wall it up and no one goes in or out without being thoroughly searched until everyone in the area learns to play nice with each other. |
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| Dwayne | Jan 16 2005, 06:17 PM Post #13 |
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Profanity deleted by Hoss
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As orginally intended by the UN in 1948, Jerusalem was supposed to be a city-state of sorts. |
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| CV6 Enterprise | Jan 16 2005, 06:24 PM Post #14 |
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Captain
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And we all know how good the UN is supposed to take care of the world's problems :rolleyes: That was supposed to be sarcasim |
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| Dwayne | Jan 16 2005, 06:44 PM Post #15 |
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Profanity deleted by Hoss
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^^^ You are right about that. |
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I at least asked for these opinions .


9:46 AM Jul 11