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Friedman : Cutting NFS Funding "Idiotic"
Topic Started: Dec 6 2004, 09:40 AM (577 Views)
Hoss
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Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
The Sisko
Dec 6 2004, 01:57 PM
If anything is to be done to improve education in America we have to stop funding schools primarily by local property tax. It is difficult to raise due to the fact that many property owners don't have school age children and do not benefit by raising their taxes, and many families of school age children do not have property to tax. Furthermore, it creates a huge disparity as far as quality of education based on region.

A state sales tax or sin tax evenly distributed would be a far better model IMHO.

(Note: the above is merely the off-the-cuff opinion of a non-expert. No research or serious academic consideration was made in the above post. Thank you for your attention.)

Property Tax vs. Sales Tax. Hmmmmm.....

I don't know which is more apt to fund schools.

In Texas, there are school districts. These districts are government entities separate from others (like counties and cities) and they have taxing authority. They get their money from you based on property taxes. I think that the government entities like property taxes better because they can arbitrarily raise your taxes without 'raising' your taxes by appraising your propery for a higher value. This has happened to me and there is little that the individual can do about it. But, one can budget for property taxes much easier than one can budget for sales taxes.

A sales tax would hit the poorer communities harder thant he wealthier ones as there wouldn't be as much consumption going on. I guess that it could all be administered by the State, yikes.

I, personally wouldn't put underfunding as one of the top problems in most of our public schools.
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
Regardless of the type of tax, funding for schools shouldn't rely on the value of the property surrounding it. That way your quality of education is dependant on your geography.

I taught in an inner city school in Cleveland. They had metal detectors at the door, but no computers for students to use. Granted, another major problem has to do with educating teachers and motivation to change and upgrade teaching techniques. However, since teachers are some of the lowest paid professionals in America, I think money might help with motivation for better qualified individuals entering the profession.

I make more now as a paralegal than I would have as a teacher and I work half as hard. There's something wrong with that.
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gvok
Unregistered

Wichita
Dec 6 2004, 02:09 PM
Careful, Gvok.  Now that you have declared that you think Social Security, Welfare, Student loans, and other entitlements should be cut, someone is going to accuse you of being cold hearted and not wanting to give the poor.

BTW, if that ISN'T what you meant, I would have to agree with others - you have dodged the question.

Wow, you guys are really chomping at the bit today. The only progams besides defense that would not constitute more than a fraction of the deficit if cut are entitlement programs. So, logically, if we want to balance the budget by cutting spending that's what we have to cut. Now, as I said, I am not ideologically opposed to raising taxes either so I don't really see your point W.
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Hoss
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Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
The Sisko
Dec 6 2004, 02:17 PM
Regardless of the type of tax, funding for schools shouldn't rely on the value of the property surrounding it. That way your quality of education is dependant on your geography.

I taught in an inner city school in Cleveland. They had metal detectors at the door, but no computers for students to use. Granted, another major problem has to do with educating teachers and motivation to change and upgrade teaching techniques. However, since teachers are some of the lowest paid professionals in America, I think money might help with motivation for better qualified individuals entering the profession.

I make more now as a paralegal than I would have as a teacher and I work half as hard. There's something wrong with that.

Perhaps, the problem is in the job description and not so much in the pay rate.

I think that the bureaucratic structure punishes good teachers and encourages incompetent teachers.

I think that apathetic parents make teaching, near impossible.

I think that teacher's unions do nothing to improve education and everything to secure job security and tenure at the expense of education if necessary.

I think that the public schools have their priorities way off of where the should be. They are more concerned with collecting money for the number of warm bodies and securing funding from the DoEd, than they are with educating students.

I think that this well-intentioned but misguided belief that we should be concerned with the self-esteem and feelings of students before what they actually learn is goofed up.

The idea that we should not expect certain minorities to be as smart as white kids is very damaging and insulting. I don't see how these groups tolerate it.

I think that money is not even a major issue.
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
All of these things are true, but the fact that teachers are poorly paid and have to keep control and try to teach 30 kids something in one hour a day as well as answer to apathetic and critical parents and administrators who care about nothing but making themselves look good keep quality people from persuing it as a career.
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
gvok
Dec 6 2004, 07:45 PM
Wow, you guys are really chomping at the bit today. The only progams besides defense that would not constitute more than a fraction of the deficit if cut are entitlement programs. So, logically, if we want to balance the budget by cutting spending that's what we have to cut. Now, as I said, I am not ideologically opposed to raising taxes either so I don't really see your point W.

Personal Response

It was a J - O - K - E, Gvok.

Given the number of times you have criticized conservatives for being hardhearted (or is it coldhearted?) for wanting some type of accountability for entitlement programs, I'm just surprised to see that you support cuts of those very same programs.

End of Personal Response
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gvok
Unregistered

Wichita
Dec 6 2004, 03:55 PM
gvok
Dec 6 2004, 07:45 PM
Wow, you guys are really chomping at the bit today.  The only progams besides defense that would not constitute more than a fraction of the deficit if cut are entitlement programs.  So, logically, if we want to balance the budget by cutting spending that's what we have to cut.  Now, as I said, I am not ideologically opposed to raising taxes either so I don't really see your point W.

Personal Response

It was a J - O - K - E, Gvok.

Given the number of times you have criticized conservatives for being hardhearted (or is it coldhearted?) for wanting some type of accountability for entitlement programs, I'm just surprised to see that you support cuts of those very same programs.

End of Personal Response

I don't believe I ever made that accusation W. If you were joking, I'm sorry I misinterpreted you. It's hard to tell sometimes here.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
Quote:
 
but the fact that teachers are poorly paid and have to keep control and try to teach 30 kids something in one hour a day....

The Sisko,

Why only one hour a day? We teach our children between 6-8 hours a day, depending on which day of the week it is.
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
I mean one class period of 30 kids each. I guess I need to be more clear. Teachers are responsible for hundreds of kids each day. Not only making sure they are paying attention and not getting in trouble, but that they also get something out of class. That's not easy, and I challange anyone who says it is to give it a try.

My whole point is, as much as I enjoyed working with kids, I make more money doing what I am now and working half the time and effort I put into teaching. That's a big problem. The best people are working somewhere where they don't have to put up with crap from parents and administrators and are paid well for their efforts and recognized.
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CV6 Enterprise
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Captain
38, I think, has hit the nail on the head. But we also need to get disipline back into the schools. Detention and suspensions don't do it. One of the main reasons why I want to teach college level history, is because I don't want to have to put up with undisiplined students. I don't think more funding is the answer. We need to get rid of tenure so bad teachers will leave, and we can get better ones in. In high school, I had this one teacher that nobody really understood, but he was still there. He's a nice guy, but just not that good of teacher. I would also say we need school vouchers, so low income families can send thier kids to better schools, which in most cases are privite. But the teachers unions are against it, along with the Democratic Party, which is in the hip pocket of most unions.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
The Sisko
Dec 6 2004, 01:17 PM
I make more now as a paralegal than I would have as a teacher and I work half as hard. There's something wrong with that.

No, there's nothing wrong with it. Congratulations! You are getting paid for utilizing your skill set. You make several times more than a ditch digger, too.
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gvok
Unregistered

Admiralbill_gomec
Dec 8 2004, 08:12 AM
The Sisko
Dec 6 2004, 01:17 PM
I make more now as a paralegal than I would have as a teacher and I work half as hard.  There's something wrong with that.

No, there's nothing wrong with it. Congratulations! You are getting paid for utilizing your skill set. You make several times more than a ditch digger, too.

I think the point Sisko is trying to make is that as a society, it is to our benefit to encourage quality people to become teachers. As you often point out, Admiral, people are encouraged to do things with a monitary incentive.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
Then that would be a school district's choice.

One reason teacher salaries aren't as high as other professions... they work nine months a year. My mother taught for twenty years. For the first ten, she worked a summer job, so her annual salary was closer to everyone elses. Another reason, the amount of bureaucracy mandated by state and federal laws has loaded up school districts with topheavy administrative staffs... meaning they can't afford to pay teachers more and meet governmental regulations.
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gvok
Unregistered

So how would you (and I'm not being adversarial) provide incentives to attract better people into the teaching field?
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Fesarius
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Admiral
Quote:
 
Another reason, the amount of bureaucracy mandated by state and federal laws has loaded up school districts with topheavy administrative staffs... meaning they can't afford to pay teachers more and meet governmental regulations.

This is accurate. I've done the research in this area, which is why I choose to homeschool our children.

The Sisko,

Isn't the ratio of 30:1 a huge part of the problem? Heck, I've taught at the college level, and teaching 120 students isn't very gratifying, nor effective. But once that number is reduced, the positive results can be astonishing. :)
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