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Abstinence Programs Faulted
Topic Started: Dec 2 2004, 02:07 PM (530 Views)
Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Minuet
Dec 2 2004, 04:54 PM
How is he trying to push his beliefs on you????  :headscratch:

He stated quite clearly that he has no problem with abstinance programs. His only problem is with programs that lie being paid for by federal dollars.

If you choose to exagerate or lie at home that is your choice. But the government has no right to fund programs that are not factual. Plain and simple. Not everyone wants to lie to thier children and the government does not have the right to make that choice for you.

Its not about abstinence its about the program its self. If my choice is to send my kids to a program that will lie/exaggerate to them, that is my choice is it not, even if you disagree with it? Just as it is your choice to get an abortion if you want, even if I disagree with it. If the government pays for one (abortion) why cant they pay for the other (a program that lies to the kids in it)? No one is forced to go through this program, it is their choice to do so. There is no difference between this and abortion, except that this man (and you I assume) disagree with it. By saying that it should not exist you are forcing that (his/ and I assume yours) opinion on the people who do think it should exist.

Would you except me saying – sure you have a choice on abortion, just do it at home? No you would not, so these people should also get that curtsy.

Its about choice, you demand it, but you must also let others have theirs. If you expect the government to pay for your choice, you must also grant that same benefit to others. It seems to me – people in this country (form all corners) (I cant speek for your country) what their cake but eat it too.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
But what if you don't know the program is lying and you send your child anyways. I think honesty needs to be a key component of any government funded program no matter what the subject. I would be equally upset about a course that taught birth control - but lied about the success rate of various methods, or that tried to hid the reality of STD's.

If the true goal is the health and protection of our children then honesty is the only way to go.
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Quote:
 
Maryland abortion foes try new rules tactic


By Robert Redding Jr.
THE WASHINGTON TIMES



    Maryland's dormant pro-life movement is showing signs of revival — and growing support in the General Assembly.
    A group of lawmakers calling themselves the Pro-Life Caucus say they will introduce a bill to require free-standing abortion clinics to operate under the same licensing rules as other outpatient medical facilities.
    "I think the pro-life movement in Maryland is re-energized," said Angela Martin, president of Maryland Right to Life.
    Clare McGrath-Merkle, executive director of Pro-Life Maryland Inc., said recent polling shows that Marylanders are increasingly concerned about issues such as parental notification and cloning.
    "The abortion debate has matured a lot ... and people on both sides of the issue are realizing they have common ground," Miss McGrath-Merkle said.
    Mrs. Martin added that "the consensus is we have gone too long with the situation that we currently have."
    But John W. Nugent, president and chief executive officer of Planned Parenthood of Maryland, characterized the upcoming bill as "nuisance legislation that is attempting to put restrictions on physicians and possibly put physicians out of business."
    State Sen. Janet Greenip, Anne Arundel County Republican, said this week she will be the chief sponsor of the pro-life legislation, which would require abortion clinics to adhere to the same standards as other outpatient surgery facilities — such as fire code regulations.
    "It brings abortion clinics in line with every other medical facility in the state of Maryland," said Mrs. Greenip. "We are trying to protect the women that assume that these places are regulated and a safe place to be."
    Mrs. Greenip said her bill would provide women with information about the procedure's risks, collect data on complications and botched cases, and ensure practitioners have adequate malpractice insurance.
    She said it can no longer be assumed that abortion clinics are observing fire and health codes or have proper equipment.
    "No one is checking on any of this," she said. "Until we have the statistics, you don't know whether these places are safe, which I doubt."
    Pro-choice groups say that requiring abortion clinics to follow the guidelines of other outpatient facilities would kill those businesses.
    "It is over-regulation," said Mr. Nugent of Planned Parenthood. "There is no need for first-trimester abortions to be completed in an outpatient surgery center. It does not require that level of sophistication that it be done in an operating room setting."
    According to the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League/Pro-Choice Maryland (NARAL), the state in 2000 had 42 abortion providers, many of whom were obstetricians who performed the procedure in their offices.
    State Health Secretary Nelson J. Sabatini said the Greenip bill is redundant.
    "We have a law that says only a physician can perform an abortion," said Mr. Sabatini, Maryland's top health official. "I would like to know what is the issue that they are trying address. No one has been able to tell me how that [bill] would address or improve the health of the public. I believe you should pass legislation and improve existing regulatory controls."
    A spokeswoman for Gov. Robert L. Ehrlich Jr. said he generally does not comment on pending legislation.
    "This is a complicated issue," she said. "It is premature to comment at this time."
    Mr. Ehrlich, a Republican, has said he supports abortion rights, but he voted for a ban on the late-term procedure known as "partial-birth abortion" when he was in the U.S House of Representatives.
    In March, Lt. Gov. Michael S. Steele, also a Republican, made a brief appearance at a March for Life rally at the State House, where he took to the stage and waved to pro-life supporters but did not address the crowd.
    Maryland has long been one of the more liberal states on abortion rights, having earned an A-minus from NARAL. Through Medicaid, the state pays for about 4,000 abortions each year. A recent study by the Alan Guttmacher Institute estimates that 34,560 abortions are performed in Maryland every year.
    There are no official statistics on the number of abortions performed each year. Maryland abortion providers are not required to report that information.
    Douglas P. Stiegler, executive director of the pro-life Family Protection Lobby, said he has seen a groundswell of interest in the abortion issue.
    He pointed to a recent survey by Gonzales Research and Marketing Strategies study that shows 90 percent of Marylanders — including those who classify themselves as pro-choice — believe clinic standards should be the same for all facilities.
    "People in the state are starting to question some of the things that are going on," Mr. Stiegler said. "When we tell people that clinics are not regulated, they can't believe it. It has been something that has been hidden under the table. ... We feel like we are certainly on solid ground on this issue."
    The Pro-Life Caucus includes Republican state Sens. Andrew P. Harris of Baltimore County, J. Robert Hooper of Harford County, Larry E. Haines of Baltimore County, Richard F. Colburn of Caroline County, Nancy Jacobs of Cecil County, J. Lowell Stoltzfus of Somerset County and Alex X. Mooney of Frederick County.



Source

Personal Response

Minuet, wouldn't you agree that people should also be informed if abortions clinics standards don't meet the same standards as other outpatient facilities?

Is it the right of "experts" to determine if the standards are enough or should the patients be made aware that the standards are not the same as other outpatient clinics and be allowed to make an informed choice?

One of the reasons this bill is being pushed now is that one clinic in Maryland was found to be doing abortions without a doctor being present on occasion. When investigated, it was discovered that the owner operated had had a clinic in another state closed down by that state. Maryland was the only state to allow her reopen before this violation was discovered.

End of Personal Response

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Hoss
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Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
^^^^How dare they kill someone without a doctor present to perform the, ahem, 'medical' procedure?
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Fesarius
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Admiral
Shocking! And Hippocrates would agree! ;)
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Minuet
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Wichita
Dec 3 2004, 12:40 PM
Personal Response

Minuet, wouldn't you agree that people should also be informed if abortions clinics standards don't meet the same standards as other outpatient facilities?

Is it the right of "experts" to determine if the standards are enough or should the patients be made aware that the standards are not the same as other outpatient clinics and be allowed to make an informed choice?

One of the reasons this bill is being pushed now is that one clinic in Maryland was found to be doing abortions without a doctor being present on occasion. When investigated, it was discovered that the owner operated had had a clinic in another state closed down by that state. Maryland was the only state to allow her reopen before this violation was discovered.

End of Personal Response

Absolutely they should be held to the same standards. As I said

Quote:
 
If the true goal is the health and protection of our children then honesty is the only way to go.


I am rather suprised to hear this is a problem. Canada is quite different from the US. There is no way in Canada that our socialized medical system would pay for something that was not performed to standard by the proper medical professionals.

But then remember - I agree that abstinance should be taught. I merely want to see that all the information given to our children is accurate. That includes correct information on contraceptives, including failure rates and information regarding STD's.
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
Abstenence Program Equivalent:

"Sex is bad. You shouldn't have sex. Because it's bad. mmmmmmmmkay?" :lol:
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Personal Response

Having worked with a community task force (small, small town), I would say I've never seen such a program, but then you may have had a different experience.

Our programs focused on how delaying pregnancy until a time when you have the physically and emotional ability to raise a child increased your chances for success in life. Abstinence was the most reliable method by which you could delay pregnancy - others had varying degrees of success.

The overall problem we faced was not issues of "morality" but issue of ignorance and most of that came from the kids themselves.

People are still saying you can't get pregant your first time, for example.

Once I attended a program where the presenter pointed out that The Pill could be ineffective if you were on a course of antibiotics (true). The kids were shocked - as were several adult female chaperones :scared:.

End of Personal Response
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
^^^ And that is exactly what I am talking about. Ignorance of the facts is the biggest problem our children face.

I don't have personal experience - yet - of the programs in our schools. My older daughter is just reaching the age where the school will begin to teach sex education. I personally have already provided basic facts and I hope I have set up a situation where my daughter is comfortable discussing these issues with me and letting me know what is taught in the school.

I was not basing my opinion on any specific experience - just stating what my "ideal" program would include.
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Personal Response

Quote:
 
I personally have already provided basic facts and I hope I have set up a situation where my daughter is comfortable discussing these issues with me and letting me know what is taught in the school.


The problem with school based programs - NO MATTER WHAT VERSION THEY TEACH - is that the kids will often STILL believe their friends first. Schools don't have the one on one relationships that parents CAN have.

To me the best protection for a kid is being able to go to a parent and say "This is what I heard ... " and have that parent listen and give good advice. It beats every other option or program.

Now, I do know there are parents who give their "sex is bad" line, but there are also parents who "push their kids into it because you will anyway". (One mother invited the boy and bought the beer and then left him in the house with the daughter. Fortunately she had a neighbor she could trust and went there.)

End of Personal Response
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Minuet
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School is not a substitute for good parenting. But there are bad parents out there. This is why I believe in teaching these programs in the school. All children need access to the proper information, not only those lucky enough to have good parents.
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
Agreed. Education is the way to prevent ignorant mistakes. Simple scolding and saying "Don't do that" fuels defiance.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Minuet
Dec 3 2004, 12:00 PM
If the true goal is the health and protection of our children then honesty is the only way to go.

In your opinion - and their inlies the problem.
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
Yes, honesty is bad. We should lie to children and hope they don't figure it out. :rotfl:
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gvok
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The Sisko
Dec 3 2004, 04:42 PM
Yes, honesty is bad. We should lie to children and hope they don't figure it out. :rotfl:

Agreed. If sitcoms have taught me anything, it's that when you try to be honest all of the time people start to get mad at you.
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