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Dollar Sinks to New Low Against Euro
Topic Started: Nov 24 2004, 10:18 AM (1,389 Views)
Minuet
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^^^We were talking Red and Blue states and which ones have higher taxes compared to which states have people that give more generously to charity.

Texas was used as my example because there are no state income taxes. Most other states do have income taxes if I am not mistaken. Also, if I am not mistaken, most social programs in the US are the responsibility of the state, not the federal government.
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Hoss
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Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
Minuet
Nov 29 2004, 07:10 PM
^^^We were talking Red and Blue states and which ones have higher taxes compared to which states have people that give more generously to charity.

Texas was used as my example because there are no state income taxes. Most other states do have income taxes if I am not mistaken. Also, if I am not mistaken, most social programs in the US are the responsibility of the state, not the federal government.

They may be run by the state in many instances but are funded by the Fed sometimes. This way the Fed can use the money as extortion money like with highway spending or what not.

Anyway, even though Texans pay no state income tax we do pay a hefty property tax for county, city and district entities; hefty sales taxes for the state and cities; hefty gasoline taxes for the roads, etc. I guess that the left might consider it more fair because the mean old property owners pay the taxes and the sales taxes are based on consumption. :shrug: I don't feel like I am getting let off easy as far as taxation goes.

And then there is the lottery. :lol:
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Minuet
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Well - I was not debating the "fairness" of your taxes. Merely pointing out that those that pay less taxes give more to charity and those who pay more taxes give less. I still maintain that those who don't like the status quo in thier state have the freedom to move elsewhere. Taxes are not a "lesser" form of charity. Just a different one.
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Fesarius
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Minuet,

I didn't want to start a new thread, and I can't remember where this topic came up before. Would you please move it to the appropriate thread if you think it is necessary? Thanks.

****************

The minimum per-pupil funding allocated by the state of Michigan for K-12 schools in the past decade:

FY 1995: $4,209
FY 1996: $4,506
FY 1997: $4,816
FY 1998: $5,124
FY 1999: $5,170
FY 2000: $5,700
FY 2001: $6,000
FY 2002: $6,500
FY 2003: $6,626
FY 2004: $6,626
FY 2005: $6,700

****************

I would love to have this much money for all of my children to be used for school, let alone six times the amount. :)
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Minuet
Nov 29 2004, 06:25 PM
Taxes are not a "lesser" form of charity. Just a different one.

I consider taxation a legalized form of theft, but that's just me.
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Hoss
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Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
I agree that taxes are not charity in any way.

I don't mind paying reasonable taxes (maintain the military, build roads, etc.), but when it comes to wealth redistribution, it is just theft as ABG says.
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Fesarius
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I've never thought of taxes as charity before. Perhaps it is looked upon somewhat differently in Canada (and in other countries) than it is in the States?
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Admiralbill_gomec
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I remember back during the 2000 elections. I was watching one of the CSPAN channels. They were airing a conference of "progressives" in Maryland. Most were academics. The main item of discussion: removing the negative connotations of taxation so they could fund new social programs. One of the women proposed using the word "contributions" instead of "taxes."

As I have said in the past... "You can put a pig in a prom dress..."

Academics, can't live with them; can't run over them with your fossil fuel-burning SUV!
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Admiralbill_gomec
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38957
Nov 30 2004, 07:11 AM
I agree that taxes are not charity in any way.

I don't mind paying reasonable taxes (maintain the military, build roads, etc.), but when it comes to wealth redistribution, it is just theft as ABG says.

I don't have a problem paying what I call "Constitutional" taxes.
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Minuet
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I had never consciously thought of taxes as charity until a few weeks ago.

At my daughter's religious school they had a special family program for the parents to come in and discuss the concept of Tzedakah, or charity, with our children. In the course of the discussion we talked about the ancient jewish laws that a minimum of 10% of your income should be given to charity. In ancient times most people were farmers. The charity was given by leaving the corners of the fields for the poor to gather from. Everyone did this without question. You were ostracized by the community if you did not.

These days most of us are not farmers and do not have crops in the field that we can leave for the poor. The teacher asked us how many of us could say we gave 10% to charity. Of course most of us said no. The teacher then went on to point out that most of us actually do - through our taxes. It was a different way to see things. How different is it, really, from the tithes that many churches ask for. You might point to the difference between voluntary and involuntary. But is involuntary all that bad - or anything new?

Something for the religious people in this discussion to at least think about. Personally I can say the discussion gave me a new perspective on taxes - and maybe helped explain why there are so many Jewish liberals.
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Fesarius
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[Minuet, maybe this should be moved too?]

Quote:
 
In the course of the discussion we talked about the ancient jewish laws that a minimum of 10% of your income should be given to charity.

In my experience, this is called 'tithing.' We do it (give 10%); however, we don't give it to charites per se. Rather, we give it to the church, and they in turn decide to whom it should be distributed.

Minuet,

It never dawned on me to ask the Jews what this meant from their perspective. :)
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Minuet
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Fesarius - do you see my point now? Tithing is just another form of tax - it is paid to the Church instead of the government. Tell me - do you ever have a problem with how the church spends the money? Would you be upset if you found out the Pastor was paid more then you think he/she deserves?

It gets very close to what the government does in the long run, doesn't it? You as an individual still lose control of the money. Why complain about one form but not the other? The goal is still the same.
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Fesarius
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Quote:
 
Fesarius - do you see my point now? Tithing is just another form of tax - it is paid to the Church instead of the government. Tell me - do you ever have a problem with how the church spends the money? Would you be upset if you found out the Pastor was paid more then you think he/she deserves?

Minuet,

Speaking for myself, I do not have to tithe. It's voluntary for us (although we choose to do it). Is it obligatory for you? If it is, then I do see your point.

I definitely think about where the money goes. And yes, I would be upset if I found out that there was some kind of impropriety going on. But we often see the food being bought and delivered to the needy out of these funds.

Quote:
 
It gets very close to what the government does in the long run, doesn't it? You as an individual still lose control of the money. Why complain about one form but not the other? The goal is still the same.

Again, it is voluntary for me. I think that that may be at the crux of the matter. In the States, we don't have a choice when it comes to our taxes--we pay them whether we want to or not (or get punished for it later). It sounds like you do both--to the government and to the Church (Temple).
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Hoss
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Tithing is still voluntary. No one comes to your door armed and hauls your butt off if you don't do it.
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gvok
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38957
Nov 30 2004, 11:44 AM
Tithing is still voluntary. No one comes to your door armed and hauls your butt off if you don't do it.

This did happen in Mideval Europe from time to time actually.
^
 
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