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Why is it wrong for Christians to impose; their morals on people?
Topic Started: Nov 22 2004, 05:47 PM (2,218 Views)
Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Minuet
Nov 23 2004, 06:46 PM
Wichita - I clarified myself - If you chose to ignore it there is not much to say.

I never said there were not extremists on both sides of issues. I just happened to use a particular example.

Personal Response

Please don't claim that I have done something that I have NOT DONE. :angry:

End of Personal Response





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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Wichita, I gave specific examples and instead of refering to those you chose to make an issue out of there being extremists on the other side. It seemed to me that you were ignoring much of what I was saying and focusing on just the one example I made. You said nothing about my remarks regarding those who would beat up gays.

In fact you were the one who insinuated I meant something that I did not. I never said there was anything wrong with peaceful protest - only the kind of protest that involved infringing on the rights of others. There is a limit. I am against those who cross the line in order to impose thier will on those who do not agree with them.

If - in the case of abortion, you were to turn the argument upside down then I have a question for you. Would you be for dragging a person who did not want an abortion into a clinic and forcing them to undergo an abortion? To me shoving a person, calling them a murderer and physically preventing them from getting a legal procedure is pretty much the same thing.
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cptjeff
Captain of the Enterprise-J
Fesarius
Nov 23 2004, 10:25 AM
Quote:
 
I'm also anti- abortion, so taht palys into it. But pro- choice.

Cptjeff,

Question: How can you be for both? Or do you mean that the value of choice outweighs the first? If so, I can see where you could hold that position.

You got it exactly right. I am personally opposed to abortions, but I belive that the decision is not mine. that is why it is pro choice, not anti-life. accually, I belive that I am -pro- life. I am jous opposed to pro-Control idealoigies. who in their right mind cannot claim to be pro life? you can claim to be anti-choice, or pro- rule, but you cannot say pro-life, because we all value life highly. however, veiws differ on wether or not a fetus is a life, and wether or not a mother's choice is more important.

Even the label 'Pro-Life' is not a nutral title. it makes it seem as if the pro-choice folks are anti- life. personally I belive in the pro- choice argument, not the pro-restriction one.

it's all about the terminoligy...


as for the topic- Min, Wichita was only giving one example. yours in another. they are both valid ways (or should I say invalid) ways to force one's particular beliefs on somone.
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Minuet
Nov 23 2004, 08:57 PM
Wichita, I gave specific examples and instead of refering to those you chose to make an issue out of there being extremists on the other side. It seemed to me that you were ignoring much of what I was saying and focusing on just the one example I made. You said nothing about my remarks regarding those who would beat up gays.




Personal Response

Actually I responded to everything in your first post with the exception of two sentences.

Minuet
 
Doc - for starters you forgot to provide a link


Minuet
 
I am talking those who would beat up a gay person.


I didn't respond to the first because it was already taken care of and I didn't respond to the second because I agreed with you.

In that post you said:

Minuet
 
As in all things there needs to be a balance. If something is legal then there needs to be a proper access to it.


You quoted the same section again in your response to my post.

From that, I got the impression that you were expressing the opinion that "If something is legal then there needs to be a proper access to it."

Now if that is not your opinion, then I apologize. If it is, I disagree with it.

Why? Because "if something is legal, then there needs to be a proper access to it" is the criteria, then the most of the actions of the civil rights movement and nearly 100% (if not 100%) of the Vietnam (and now Iraqi War) protests violate it. (Which is what I said in response to your response to me.)

Social change, IMO, sometimes requires that law be violated even if it requires that proper access to a legal entity be denied. I also believe those who do should be prepared to pay the consequences of their acts, but not pay different prices based on which beliefs they hold.

The rest of your response to me:

Minuet
 
Wichita - I think this last line I wrote sums up my response to your response 

I may not have been clear enough - but I was refering to the use of violence - not the use of peaceful protest. You and I both know that there have been many instances of violence. The last thing a scared pregnant girl needs is to be acosted and shoved and called a murderer. That is the type of "protest" I am refering to as wrong.

There was also the highly publicized case in Buffalo, NY where a doctor who performed abortions was shot and killed by an anti-abortionist. This is what I call "forcing" an issue.


The rest of my response:

Wichita
 
Ever been sitting quietly and passively and have someone walk up, thrust his hand between your breasts, grab your bra and haul you to your feet by it? It's a favorite way to pick up non-violent female protestors at abortion clinics. Why that particular method? Because it enrages otherwise passive people so that they fight back.

If you want to talk about just the extemists, there are extremists on both sides.


(Highlights mine - and now)

Unless you are stating that EVERY anti-abortion protester accosts and shoves pregnant teenagers and calls her a murderer, then IMO, then you are talking about "just the extremists" ....

... which is what I said in my post.

Minuet
 
Wichita - I clarified myself - If you chose to ignore it there is not much to say.


What - specifically - did I ignore? I didn't quote the whole paragraph in the interest of space, but I responded to it IMO.

Quote:
 
I never said there were not extremists on both sides of issues. I just happened to use a particular example.


Where did I say that you did? :shrug:

Not only do I not think I said it, I don't recall even thinking that you did.

Quote:
 
I never said there was anything wrong with peaceful protest


Again, where did I say that you did? :shrug:


Quote:
 
- only the kind of protest that involved infringing on the rights of others.


Which I disagreed with and have covered already.

Minuet
 
If - in the case of abortion, you were to turn the argument upside down then I have a question for you. Would you be for dragging a person who did not want an abortion into a clinic and forcing them to undergo an abortion?


No I wouldn't.

Now I have a question for you:

What makes you think that it doesn't happen now?

Minuet
 
To me shoving a person, calling them a murderer and physically preventing them from getting a legal procedure is pretty much the same thing.


Which is something like shoving a person who honorably has served their country, spitting on them and calling them a baby killer ....

End of Personal Response
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Coda
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Commander
What is an abortion clinic?
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Twilight
Nov 23 2004, 10:16 PM
What is an abortion clinic?

An office where a doctor provides abortions.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Wichita - you have me thoroughly confused.

Of course I was only talking about extremists - I never, never, never, meant to imply that what I was saying was true of all anti-abortionists. However it is true of a certain vocal group and there is no denying that some, like the sniper in Buffalo, would kill to get thier way. Many, but arguably not all of these people are religious zealots. You may not have meant it that way - but the way you presented your case it sounded to me like you were accusing me of saying that all the protesters acted that way and all were Christian. I was simply presenting the case that there are some who do and they are wrong because they are infringing on the rights of others.

Quote:
 
What makes you think that it doesn't happen now?


I'm not sure what this question has to do with what I am saying. Obviously I think that if this happens it is dead wrong. That was my point. :shrug:

Quote:
 
Which is something like shoving a person who honorably has served their country, spitting on them and calling them a baby killer ....


Wichita - once again I do not understand. You seem to be implying that I would agree with this type of behaviour. I do not. I could not list every example known to man in my original response. Yes - the topic is "Why is it wrong for Christians to impose" and this is what I responded to. That does not mean that I think it is right for others to impose thier views. One does not automatically wipe out the other. Believe it or not I can think it is wrong for christians, liberals, conservatives, muslims, jews, ect.... to impose thier views on others. I stated very clearly that there is nothing wrong with someone religious running for office. I stated that if thier views were clear and they were voted in then they obviously have a mandate to vote thier views. However - I separated that from constitutional issues in that I do not feel that anyone should attempt to change the constitution based on thier religious views. The constitution, as I understand it (and being Canadian and not American I may not understand perfectly ;) ) is meant to protect the basic rights of all citizens. It is not meant to impose one religion over another. I particularly mentioned the use of the courts because this is a discussion I have had with Doctortobe in the past. He is against constitutional issues being taken to court because he feels that it gives too much power to the courts to legislate. I disagree with that point of view.
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Coda
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Commander
So Family Planning Centers and Hospitals are now called abortion clinics?
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Personal Response

Minuet, what are you talking about?

The two quotes you pulled out of my last response were only made so you did not accuse me again of ignoring something.

They were made in response to comments from you that I couldn't see having anything whatsoever to do with anything I said. :shrug:

I'm going to say goodnight now.

End of Personal Response
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
Allow me to elaborate on what my problem with this whole concept is. If the majority of Americans hold conservative or liberal ideals, then those conservative or liberal ideals will make their way into the government and be expressed as policy and law. The ideology in control will therefore be forcing their views on other people because not everybody is a conservative or a liberal.

If a special interest group such as women's rights or pro-life (it is an accurate title by the way jeff), is able to come together and use their resources to make their position the popular one, then their morals will become policy and law and those that oppose those morals will have views forced upon them.

In every case of government, when you have policy and law made, you are forcing those policies and laws onto some people that do not want to follow them. If everybody wanted to follow a certain moral, there would be no need to make it law.

The reason why this happens is because we live in a society. We are not just seperate individuals that don't interact with each other, we're a group, we influence one another. As such, if there is a large group with a similar mode of thinking, then that large group will have more influence on the society then the smaller group(s). That is the base reason why laws and policies are made.

So, in all reality, the only way to make sure that no views are forced upon others is to repeal all laws and policies and live in anarchy.

But the question remains, if the forcing of views and morals upon those that don't agree with them is an inseperable part of government, then why is it okay for non-religious groups to do this, but it is wrong for religious groups to do it. Those that say it is wrong for religious groups to do so must also say it is wrong for all political parties, civil rights movements, special interest groups, or heck, any group that is made up of more then one person to do the same thing. Either that, or they must conclude that religion is something that must be repressed, religious people should be banned from voting, speaking about it in public, or from making any indication that they are religious. There really isn't much middle ground on this.
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
cptjeff
Nov 22 2004, 08:33 PM
also, with the countrerceptive treatments, well, nobody's focing anyone to use them...
you can lead a hore to the
water but you can't make him drink- that's all I'm saying.

whew :whew:

Based upon the fact one must often weed through your misspellings to devine the true meaning of your words, on reading the first half of that sentence, I thought you were getting ready to go somewhere else with that sentence than where you went.
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24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Dwayne
Nov 24 2004, 07:27 AM
cptjeff
Nov 22 2004, 08:33 PM
also, with the countrerceptive treatments, well, nobody's focing anyone to use them...
you can lead a hore to the
water but you can't make him drink- that's all I'm saying.

whew :whew:

Based upon the fact one must often weed through your misspellings to devine the true meaning of your words, on reading the first half of that sentence, I thought you were getting ready to go somewhere else with that sentence than where you went.

I had the same reaction when I first read that. It took me a minute to figure out if he was referring to a "whore" or "horse." :lol:
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Hoss
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Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
24thcenstfan
Nov 24 2004, 07:46 AM
Dwayne
Nov 24 2004, 07:27 AM
cptjeff
Nov 22 2004, 08:33 PM
also, with the countrerceptive treatments, well, nobody's focing anyone to use them...
you can lead a hore to the
water but you can't make him drink- that's all I'm saying.

whew :whew:

Based upon the fact one must often weed through your misspellings to devine the true meaning of your words, on reading the first half of that sentence, I thought you were getting ready to go somewhere else with that sentence than where you went.

I had the same reaction when I first read that. It took me a minute to figure out if he was referring to a "whore" or "horse." :lol:

He did refer to the 'hore' as a him. Doesn't whore usually mean woman and you call a male prostitute a gigilo (I don't know how to spell gigilo)?

Why would anyone want to give contraceptives to their horse anyhow? :headscratch:
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24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
^^Have you never heard of a "man-whore?" :P (From the movie Deuce Bigalow: Male Gigolo.)



Cptjeff's spelling is so atrocious it takes a map, a compass and a guide to figure out what he is saying sometimes. I am not picking on him, because he may have dyslexia for example. Several of our board members do. I am just simply pointing out that it is difficult to discern what he says sometimes, and despite the “him” used, his wording caused me to hesitate in assigning meaning to the misspelled “hore” word.
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Hoss
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Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
Are you saying that his spelling is hore-able? :lol: Sorry, it is a punny day around these parts.
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