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Update from the IDF; message posts so you know i'm still here
Topic Started: Oct 8 2004, 07:03 AM (888 Views)
Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
doctortobe
Oct 18 2004, 12:37 AM
I could ask you the same thing.  I myself at the very least have my training to fall back upon.  You yourself have not even been in a training exercise I bet.  How can you state that soldiers should take certain actions when you are totally ignorant of combat?

He can't, and that's the thing. He's also ignorant of training, too.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Excuse me but I have had some military training - as a member of the cadet coy.

And no - since I prefer to think for myself I would make a very poor soldier (likely to tell my CO to get stuffed - just like my dad did (he spent some time in the stockage as a consequence not long after arriving in Nth Africa) - if I don't like the order.

If non-lethal means of disabling a threat are available then that would be the approach I would choose - there is always an alternative to killing people.

So back to the question.

Yo Yo is in a situation where he is likely to find himself confronted with some very serious moral dilemmas , and he is part of an organisation which has regularly been on the recieving end of intense criticism by the international community and also by more fair minded Israelis.

Investigating how Yo Yo's attitudes have developed since completing his training and indoctrination , and while he is serving with the IDF is worthwhile. Even if it could be uncomfortable for some and for him, expecially if he becomes very hard-line.


He can choose to respond , or not to . That's entirely up to him. I am not interested in "persecuting" him.
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
Learning how to march isn't the same as learning how to assault a bunker (which, if you know how to, I would very much like you to describe to me how to emphasize my point). Your attitude of how you would react in a military situation proves your lack of knowledge of things military. If you decide to disobey orders just because you don't like them, that could mean that either you would die or that a number of soldiers would needlessly die (due to your inaction). Your commanders have a helluva lot more experiance in warfare. How can you tell what orders are good orders and what orders are bad?

Trust me on the non-lethal approach, that is a good way to be killed. You assume that these people are just standing there like carboard cutouts on the gunrange. It is always faster to shoot towards the large portion of the torso to make a kill then it is to try to aim at an arm or a leg to try to disable them. Even if it is a fraction of a second, that small amount of time is all that is needed for somebody with a rifle to pull the trigger. As Bill is so fond of pointing out, war is not a video game.

Finally, could it be that Yo-Yo's attitudes are shaped by the attrocities commited by the Palistinians that he will experiance first hand? Combat of any kind is stressful on the psyche. It is not necessarily the Isrealis who would be responsible for any changes that Yo-Yo might have in his personality.
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Yo-Yo
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Wow things have been active since i have been gone. Hi eveybody i just left base (Bis-lash (i.e. Bet Sefer L'Shiryon (i.e. The school for the tank corp))) a few days ago for the last time. I'm done basic training and thank god for that. Somerlands description of basic training that he found and an IDF website which i dont actually have the time to look at is somewhat accurate but VERY open to personal interpretation. There is alot of physical rigourous work and stress. This brings a platoon together because without helping eachouther out and getting along to matterwhat the back gournd things will be more difficult for everybody. We do visit places in Israel to learn and develope an appreciation for our heritage, but the army also ensure we have contact with the arab population. they once shippped our whole company to a town to help claen and set up an arab school.

Anyways my feet are a little sore because i had my masa kumtah yesterday. Its the big hike for completing basic training where we get our berrets at the end. After a 30 km hike uphill with the last two kilometers up a steep incline while carrying a person o a stretcher (and being in full ocbat gear) we had the ceremony on a montain top with a beautiful view where we recviene the berrets and got the ceremonial punch of a combat soldier from our commander. I feel great!

Not i have a bit over a week of off duty time before advnaced training starts. Advnaced training will be in the golan insteasd of south near eilat. iti s now the winter season which means i will be out all day up to me knees in think freezing mud. I'm hoping my canadain genes will help me out.

My mother flew in to see me for my big swearing in ceremony that happened in thursday at Latrun (a large tank museuam which is also the moral heart of the tank corp). She was so proud and now i have to chaperone her around for hte next week because she doesn't speak hebrew.

Advanced training is usually four months. But the deputy brigade commander told us that now with the death of Arafat the army is bracing for a huge back lash and i may be sent to Gaza after possibly a month of advanced training. Luckily most of the trainig is covered in the first month. I'm going to keep this annoucement quite for now and only let my mom know i'm going yo gaza when i actually go.


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I wonder how likely it is that he will encounter armed children ?


Thank god it does not seem likely that you will find children aremed with guns, alot of children though stones and NO we do not shott them for that, not even in the leg, not anywhere. What is becoming a trend that alarming frequency are children strapped with explosives.


Quote:
 
The kid could be incapacitated (wounded) without the need to kill him (or her) outright. It's a kid, shoot him in the leg and he'll pretty quickly forget about shooting you as he'll be crying and rolling around in agony.


In MANY situations the IDF has been able to talk children out of attacking when they are discovered, or dis arming him before he can set it off. But when a kid is discovered with an explosive belt at a check point the area is cleared and guns are trained on him. Why? Becauseh e is a bomb. They will tell him not to move so he is a safe distance away, and try to talk him out of the bombing. Bu if he rushed the check point, what on earth are you supposed to do. You can try to shoot him in the leg (and htey probably do) but its a small and fast moving target, you will likely hit his body and likely kill him, or miss and he'll blow HIMSELF up and take abunch of soldiers and civilians with him. Even if you do manage to shoot him in the leg you cannot apporach him because he could set off the bomb. That means that you would be stuck watching him bleed to death. It is also becoming common that the explosive is attached to a second trigger via cellphone incase hte kid 'chickens out'. So you see how difficult it is to resolve such a situation with the kid staying alive. I'm not saying this lightly, thats the way it is. It is definitely NOT black and white. There is not always a situation or time figure out how to disable the kid or bomb safely. These encounters usually last seconds, a minute or two MAX.

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I do not accept the use of lethal force against children under any circumstances.


A noble staement i am curious exactly what you would do in my shoes if i found my self in that situation. (e.g. a kid loaded with explosives running at you).

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Perhaps another question needs asking - why would a child confront a soldier with a weapon ?


I think the news on anti-israel and hate propiganda as well as terrist community influeces is enough to explain that, though i will never truly understand how they could do such a thing.

Anyhoo! I hope to post again or twice thing week if oyu have any questions, anyone, ask away! :headscratch:
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Minuet
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Yo-Yo - It's good to hear from you. I very much enjoy your updates.

The next little while is going to be difficult in Israel. I hope and pray that you and all the soldiers of Israel will remain safe and that cool heads will prevail among the Palestinians now that Arafat is gone.
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Yo-Yo
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As do i Minuet
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Fesarius
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Yo-yo,

Hello. Thanks for keeping in touch with us. :)
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Yo-Yo
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Adv training at my new base begins sunday so i may not get another chance to post. So cya! :wave2:
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Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
Ever? Or for a long while?
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Yo-Yo
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welllllll.....THIS post will be my offical last for a short while. i might get a weekend off next week, if not i might not get off base for close to a month.

Thats all so see ya later! :D
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Yo-Yo
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Hey everybody :dreidel: <--- when did this become a regular? :lol:
happy pre/current/post holidays to all. I had an intersting hannuka in the army. They provided us with cheap aluminum hannukah candelabras and candles but i wanted to be more creative. I collect used heagvy machinegun casings and attached them together into a chain with the metal links they come iwth before htey are fired, i then filled the casings with oilve oil and wicks! It was great but my commander disaproved. He said that used ammunition is considured the same as live ammunitio and cannot be used in such a manner. I dont really understand why but okay i went back to the aluminum and candles but it was fun while it lasted. (I took the chain home tough ;) )

This was a fun but tough week i spent the time doing drills with tank crew for fires, breakdowns, injured crew members, and numerous out of tank maneuvers. There was a test in the end which had alot of pressure but was still fun. we ran it like a race against the other tank crew. being timed almost all the tank crews were able to climb in, lock down and start running the tank in under 15 sec.

At the end of the week we had a hike to earn our g'dudon (battalion pin). It was a 15km hike up to the top pf one of the mountains of the golan heights. We started before morning and when it got light the genius commanders with us told us to take off our army jackets so we wouldnt over heat. At we hike up the temperatures dropped to two below and the winds increased. The commanders (who were also freezing but would never admit it) told us there was no time to put our jackets back on. when it came to the last stretch where we traditionally carried someone on the stretcher we carried with us it was very strange becuase we couldn't feel the stretcher as we carried it! In the end we stood in line to get our g'dudon. the comanders pin it to us without the 'caps' on the other end and gave it a good punch. It hurt like a monkey but it was prouds to get it.

Its getting colder and muddier saturday was minus eight its good the army gives us warm clothes!
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Minuet
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Hey Yo-Yo, Happy Belated Chanukah! :dreidel: :menorah:

It's good to hear from you. I know it can get somewhat cold in Israel but what you described seems to be unusually cold. Good thing you have those Canadian genes to help you through :wow: :woohoo:

Anyhow - thanks for dropping in and telling us about your holiday celebrations. :wave2:

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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Yo-Yo
Dec 19 2004, 02:51 PM
He said that used ammunition is considured the same as live ammunitio and cannot be used in such a manner. I dont really understand why but okay i went back to the aluminum and candles but it was fun while it lasted.

It probably has to do with the same notion of not pointing an unloaded gun at some one, just incase you are wrong about the situation. If you treat fired ammunition like it is live ammunition. you will by more safe from making a mistake.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
I wondered that very same thing watching Storm Front last evening. If I were Archer (Bakula), I wouldn't be too happy even with an unloaded gun pointed at my head. :no:
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
Dandandat
Dec 19 2004, 04:22 PM
Yo-Yo
Dec 19 2004, 02:51 PM
He said that used ammunition is considured the same as live ammunitio and cannot be used in such a manner. I dont really understand why but okay i went back to the aluminum and candles but it was fun while it lasted.

It probably has to do with the same notion of not pointing an unloaded gun at some one, just incase you are wrong about the situation. If you treat fired ammunition like it is live ammunition. you will by more safe from making a mistake.

There was a cadet in another unit that carried an unfired round in his pocket after practicing BRM (Basic Rifle Marksmanship). This round went off and shot a female cadet right through the heart. This was due to poor range safety on the part of their commanders. Keeping track of ALL ammunition is vital to keep these kinds of incidents from happening. If there are a certain number of casings turned in after a soldier has fired, that means that the soldier is not carrying any unspent rounds that might go off. As a further layer of security, soldiers are usually told to turn out their pockets before leaving the range.

Your intentions were good Yo-yo, but there was good reason for your CO to take issue with it.
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